Great Northern

[Anonymous]

I am seeking information on the following
When and if the Gt Northern updated its heavywieght fleet of passenger cars with airconditioning did it also replace the six wheel trucks with four wheeled trucks? When did this take place?
What is a symbol frieight?
Thanks in advance for your help
Alex

[doctorwayne]

I'm sure GN must have updated some of their heavyweights with air conditioning, although I'm not sure when. The addition of ac would add to the weight of the car, so it's very unlikely that such cars would receive four-wheel trucks. The extra wheels are to distribute the weight of the car over a wider area. Some cars with six wheel trucks were updated with roller bearings, but I don't know if this was done on the GN.

Wayne

[wjstix]

One of the odd things about GN about this time is that they bought some lightweight smoothside passenger cars in the thirties for the Empire Builder, but painted them Pullman Green so they blended in with the heavyweight cars.

Anyway, as far as I know, GN never switched a car to four wheel trucks from six wheels. I think they converted heavyweight cars to AC (at least those on the EB) around the same time - late thirties - early forties.

[GN-Rick]

The GN did not purchase "lightweight" cars for the Empire Builder in the 30s.
What they purchased were called "Luxury coaches". They did have a streamlined
appearance, but they were equipped with 6-wheel trucks and had that hallmark
of heavyweight construction--rivets. They were calledby the railroad ; "stream-styled"
but were never lightweight cars. And yes, the GN certainly equipped the Builder with roller bearings and this was on the 6-wheel trucks. GN was actually a rather late
entry into the streamliner era. Their first was the 1947 Empire Builder. It was
constructed as complete trainsets for wholesale replacement of the heavyweight
equipment-which was reassigned to the Oriental Limited-which name only lasted
until 1950 when it was replaced by the Western Star.

The Builder was updated with air conditioning in about 1937, I believe.

[jimrice4449]

A symbol frt is simply one that's identified as to origin, destination and type by letters. When I was working for the RR (20 years ago) the train number and symbols tended to be used interchagably. For example a train from LA to Bakersfield and beyond might be identified as 3MUG20 and run as second 801. The MUG indicate Mty UGene, the 3 would indicate the third train that day (the 20th of the month). On the Coast you could have the GGM (Golden Gate Manifest), the SMV (Santa Maria Valley connection, the reefer train for all perishable from south of San Luis Obispo) and the CME and CMW(the Coast Merchandise East and West) To add to the confusion some of the trains got nicknames. The SMV was the Smokey and the CME/CMW were the Zippers) I believe the current practice is to identify all trains by origin and destination and type which would (I think) make the current version of the CMW the LASFZ (Z indicating intermodal) Somebody more up on current practice might want to update this.

[Anonymous]

Many thanks for all your information on this subject.
Regards
Alex

[reklein]

Hey GN-Rick, When did the GN go to the orange and green scheme? I see heavy weights in this color and they don't look right to me.

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by reklein

Hey GN-Rick, When did the GN go to the orange and green scheme? I see heavy weights in this color and they don't look right to me.

It was when they went to the streamlined EB, about 1954 or so, give or take a couple of years.

[wjstix]

The orange and green "Empire Builder" scheme first appeared on diesels, starting I believe with the FT's in 1941. It was first applied to passenger cars with the first streamlined Empire Builder of 1947. GN liked all the cars used on the EB to match so painted other passenger cars that could be on the EB to match, so quite a few heavyweight cars were repainted...although some cars made it to the sixties in Pullman Green.

(Just happens I was reading the Motorworks "Empire Builder" book last night.) [;)]

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wjstix

The orange and green "Empire Builder" scheme first appeared on diesels, starting I believe with the FT's in 1941. It was first applied to passenger cars with the first streamlined Empire Builder of 1947. GN liked all the cars used on the EB to match so painted other passenger cars that could be on the EB to match, so quite a few heavyweight cars were repainted...although some cars made it to the sixties in Pullman Green.

(Just happens I was reading the Motorworks "Empire Builder" book last night.) [;)]

Argh! You're right. I forgot about the FT's and the '47 trainset. [:I] I knew '54 was stretching it. The actual date in the 50's I was originally thinking of was 1951.

In 1955, they added both the long and short dome cars and this set-up is generally considered the "ultimate Empire Builder."

In 1962, they began to do the simplified scheme on the engines, but, thankfully, left the passenger cars alone.

And we won't even discuss 1967 and the "Big Sky Blue" scheme. sigh................[:(] (my apologies in advance to those 2 or 3 people who like that scheme.[:D])

[wjstix]

I think they revamped the EB with new cars in 1950 (or 51), then again in 1955. It was kinda odd in '55, I think the regular domes arrived early in the year and the full car length "great domes" towards the end, kinda funny they'd ordered both types.

[passengerfan]

Great
Northern Domes
(GN)
by Al

The Great Northern was the last of the northern transcontinental railways to add domes to their premier train between Chicago and Seattle-Portland. The first of the northwest roads to add domes to their premier train was the Milwaukee Road who added Super Domes to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA beginning in December 1952. The next of the northwest trains to add domes was the NP NORTH COAST LIMITED with a pair of dome coaches added to each consist in August 1954 and a pair of dome sleeping cars added in November 1954 between Chicago and Pasco. The UP would have three Domes operating in each CITY OF PORTLAND train set by May 1955. One each of Astra-Dome Coach, Astra-Dome Dining Car and Astra-Dome Lounge Observation in each train set between Chicago and Portland. Even the CP CANADIAN was operating domes a month before the GN received the first of their domes in May 1955.
The GN EMPIRE BUILDER would be the first and only train in the US prior to Auto-Train to operate both short domes and a full-length dome in the same consist. When the GN went with domes they spared no expense beginning in May 1955 when three short dome leg rest coaches were added to each of the EMPIRE BUILDERS five consists. Two of the Great Dome coaches were through Chicago – Seattle cars while the third was a Chicago – Portland car operating between Spokane and Portland over the SP&S who would own one of the Great Dome coaches built for the EMPIRE BUILDER by Budd. The CB&Q who operated the EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago and St. Paul owned three of these Budd built Great domes.
These Coach Domes built for the EMPIRE BUILDER were flat sided cars from Budd as were those built the year before for the NP NORTH COAST LIMITED. The cars were painted in the Omaha Orange, Pullman Green paint scheme with dulux gold separation stripes and lettering. They were an immediate hit with the traveling public. These were the standard 46 leg-rest seat cars with 24 non-revenue seats in the domes built by Budd for overnight train service.
In October 1955 the EMPIRE BUILDER received its full-length dome lounge cars for the exclusive use of the trains Pullman passengers. The VIEW series cars seated 75 on the dome level (25 seat pairs 7 single seats and 18 lounge seats). Beneath the dome was a 32-seat lounge with a bar open to Pullman passengers only. The VIEW series car was train-lined directly behind the 36-seat Dining car ahead of the trailing sleeping cars. The Great Dome Lounge cars operated between Chicago and Seattle. The GN purchased six VIEW series cars one was owned by the CB&Q for EMPIRE BUILDER service. Each eastbound EMPIRE BUILDER had a replenished 36-seat dining car; G-N Ranch car and VIEW series Great Dome replace the arriving cars from Seattle in St. Paul before continuing the trip to Chicago. The EMPIRE BUILDER Great Dome Lounge, G-N Ranch Car and Diner operated a round trip from St. Paul – Chicago – Seattle – St. Paul before being changed out. Additional bar supplies were available enroute but commissary stores for the diner and Ranch car were rarely added anywhere but Seattle.
In the late 1960’s when traffic slowed on the EMPIRE BUILDER the GN assigned one Great Dome coach to each WESTERN STAR consist between St. Paul and Seattle. Since the cars of the WESTERN STAR operated overnight between Chicago and St. Paul combined with the CB&Q BLACKHAWK and NP MAINSTREETER it was not necessary to operate the domes over this part of the trip. The GN WESTERN STAR, NP MAINSTREETER, and CB&Q BLACKHAWK operated combined eastbound and westbound overnight between St. Paul and Chicago.

24-SEAT GREAT DOME 46-SEAT LEG-REST COACHES Budd Company May 1955 (Built for and assigned to EMPIRE BUILDER)

GN

1320-1331

SP&S

1332

CB&Q

1333-1335

VIEW SERIES 75 SEAT FULL DOME LOUNGE CARS WITH BAR AND 32 SEAT LOUNGE BENEATH DOME Budd October 1955 (Built for and assigned to EMPIRE BUILDER)

GN

1390 GLACIER VIEW

1391 OCEAN VIEW

1392 MOUNTAIN VIEW

1393 LAKE VIEW

1394 PRAIRIE VIEW

CB&Q

1395 RIVER VIEW

All GN domes were transferred to BN ownership in the 1970 merger.

TTFN AL

[GN-Rick]

I have nothing to add right now. All questions have been answered more than
adequately, so far.

[randyaj]

Rick,
I find it fascinating that I was modeling the BN transition time and with some coaxing from my wife (due to her love of roundnose engines, F units you know) I have since backdated to the steam-diesel era modeling the Great Northern. Erie Huh? Could we be twins seperated at birth?
Randy Johnson

[GN-Rick]

Randy,
Oddly enough, it could possibly be so. I am an off-the-shelf model, so to
speak, so anything could have happened. And, yes, I have an extreme
fondness for GN's myriad F units. Right now, I am rebuilding a pair of
Genesis F3s, an A/B set from 353-A/B to the 261-A/B set as it appeared
in about 1956.

[passengerfan]

GREAT
NORTHERN
Streamlined Coaches
By Al

The Great Northern Railway was the crowning achievement of James J. Hill known as the Empire Builder. Here was one railroad baron that was known around the world and that at one time his influence was felt from the Orient to Buffalo, with the GN owning and operating steamships between Duluth-Superior and Buffalo on the Great Lakes. The Railway itself operated from St. Paul – Minneapolis, Duluth – Superior to Winnipeg in Manitoba and to Seattle in Washington State along the shores of Puget Sound. From Seattle the GN operated trains north to Vancouver, B. C. and south to Portland. At one time the Great Northern operated steamships from Seattle to the Orient. In cooperation with the Northern Pacific they owned steamships operating from the mouth of the Columbia River at Flavel, Oregon to San Francisco faster than the rival Southern Pacific route could transport passengers between Portland and San Francisco.
The Great Northern would operate streamlined trains or semi-streamlined passenger trains between the following city pairs. Chicago-Seattle, St. Paul – Winnipeg, St. Paul – Duluth, St. Paul – Fargo, St. Paul – Grand Forks, Billings – Great Falls, Butte – Great Falls, Havre – Great Falls, Seattle – Portland, Seattle – Spokane, and Seattle – Vancouver.
The Great Northern Railway’s most famous train was named for James J. Hill and simply called the EMPIRE BUILDER. This train replaced the ORIENTAL LIMITED as the premier train of the Great Northern between Chicago and Seattle –Portland beginning June 11, 1929 when it was introduced as the finest all Roller-Bearing equipped train in America. The promotional advertising said all new but that referred to the first class section of the train only, the Coaches were 78 revenue seat cars delivered to the Great Northern in 1914 for the ORIENTAL LIMITED. The only thing new about these cars was the EMPIRE BUILDER name in the letter boards and the trucks that had been re-equipped with Roller Bearings. The EMPIRE BUILDERS tourist sleeping cars were also older cars repainted and refitted with roller bearings on all axles.
The first true sign of luxury for the coach passenger of the Great Northern came in the late spring of 1937 with the delivery from Pullman Standard of twelve 58-revenue reclining seat coaches 938 – 949. These twelve cars have had railroad passenger car historians scratching their heads ever since. The controversy surrounding these coaches is whether they should be classed as streamlined, semi-streamlined or hybrids. Those leaning toward streamlined point to the squared off car ends, streamlined roof profile, single vestibule with folding steps, tight fitting steel Dutch doors, modern reclining seats, pull down window shades, and clean smooth appearance. Those of the semi-streamlined school of thought maintain that the cars ran on six wheel heavyweight style trucks, were riveted instead of welded together, and the windows were quite small like most heavyweight cars of the period but they could not be opened. The third group of passenger car historians point out that the arguments put forth by the Semi- Streamlined leaning group of historians and the streamlined leaning group of passenger car historians are both correct so therefore they are hybrids. In any event whether the coaches were streamlined, semi-streamlined or hybrids they were assigned two per consist to each EMPIRE BUILDER. One was a Chicago – Seattle car the other a Chicago – Portland car forwarded between Spokane and Portland by the SP&S.

58 REVENUE SEAT COACHES Pullman Standard April – May 1937 (Built for and assigned to EMPIRE BUILDER)

938 – 949

One additional streamlined coach was received by the Great Northern in January 1942; the last streamlined passenger cars delivered to the GN until after WW II in 1947. This car was one of three constructed by Pacific Railway Equipment Company with an experimental pendulum suspension system. Each of the three pendulum coaches constructed had different seating capacities. All three of the cars were delivered to the owning roads painted silver; this was fine for the CB&Q and AT&SF who already owned a number of stainless steel cars. For the GN whose other passenger cars at that time were painted Pullman Green it wasn’t hard to spot the 999 in any train it was assigned to. Sometime during WW II the 999 was repainted Pullman Green to match the rest of the GN passenger cars. The AT&SF pendulum Coach seated 58 and was numbered 1100. The CB&Q pendulum Coach seated 60 and was the only one of the three to have a name as well as a number 6000 SILVER PENDULUM. The Great Northern pendulum coach seated 68 and was numbered 999. All three of these experimental cars had long careers for they’re owning roads. The AT&SF 1100 was based in Los Angeles and operated as an extra car in SAN DIEGAN service. The CB&Q 6000 SILVER PENDULUM was assigned to general service and spent many years operating behind one of the roads doodlebugs in Missouri. The Great Northern repainted the 999 in 1947 to the new EMPIRE BUILDER colors of Omaha Orange, Pullman Green with Dulux Gold striping, in fact for a few years it even carried the EMPIRE BUILDER name in its letter boards. The GN even shopped the 999 in the 1950s and squared up the rectangular shaped windows it was built with giving it an even more distinctive appearance. It spent most of its operational career as an extra car in the INTERNATIONALS between Seattle and Vancouver or in the GN Seattle-Portland pool train. The author finds it interesting that all three roads that purchased the experimental pendulum coaches would one day be merged.

68 REVENUE SEAT COACH Pacific Railway Equipment Company January 1942 (Built with experimental suspension system sold to GN for general service)

999

The Great Northern was anxious to streamline the EMPIRE BUILDER but for the interruption of WW II there is every indication that this train would have been streamlined three years earlier than it actually was. As no new passenger cars could be constructed for the duration of the war, this gave GN more time to plan for the streamlined diesel powered EMPIRE BUILDERS. In the late summer of 1943 Great Northern Passenger department officials meant with representatives of Pullman Standard and EMD and began talks concerning all new streamlined diesel powered EMPIRE BUILDERS for delivery just as soon after the wars end as possible. When negotiations were completed contracts were signed November 4, 1943 for sixty cars to equip five twelve car EMPIRE BUILDERS from Pullman Standard. Shortly after the contract was signed with EMD for ten 2,000-hp diesel passenger Cab units to be operated in pairs at the head of the EMPIRE BUILDER between St. Paul and Seattle. As it would turn out the EMD E7A passenger Cab Units were delivered in the first half of 1945 to the Great Northern eighteen months before the new EMPIRE BUILDER cars were delivered. The GN promptly assigned the diesels to the heavyweight EMPIRE BUILDERS pending delivery of the new lightweight streamlined trains. When the war ended in August 1945 the Great Northern promptly assessed the needs of their physical plant and decided what was the best way to put the railroad back together following the conflict. First on the list of things needing urgent attention was the upgrading of all mainlines with new ballast, ties, and heavier rails in mountainous territory.
At long last Great Northern received their new EMPIRE BUILDERS from Pullman Standard, they would be the first all new postwar long distance streamlined trains to enter service following WW II on February 23, 1947. The new EMPIRE BUILDERS were the first trains to feature the new leg rest seats in the coaches. Soon almost every major railroad in the United States would be clamoring for coaches equipped with leg rest seats. The new EMPIRE BUIDERS were painted in Pullman Green and Omaha Orange with Dulux Gold separation stripes and lettering. Actually the paint scheme of the EMPIRE BUILDERS was introduced by the design people at EMD with the delivery of the Great Northern Railways first EMD FT diesels during WW II. Many Railroad and Passenger train historians believe this to have been the most attractive paint scheme ever applied to a passenger train. Each of the five train sets required for daily operation of the EMPIRE BUILDER was train lined as follows between St. Paul and Spokane.

500 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

501 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1100 30’ Railway Post Office Baggage Car

1110 60 Revenue seat Coach

1120 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

1121 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

1122 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach
(Chicago-Portland)

1140 WATERTON LAKE 10 seat Lounge 10 seat Lunch Counter 19 Crew Dormitory Car

1150 LAKE SUPERIOR 36 seat Dining Car

1160 GUNSIGHT PASS 4 Section 8 duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1170 BLACKFOOT GLACIER 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1171 AHERN GLACIER 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1161 PTARMIGAN PASS 4 Section 8 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Chicago – Portland)

1190 MISSISSIPPI RIVER 2 Double Bedroom 1 Drawing Room Buffet 16 seat Lounge 11 seat Lounge Observation

The two westbound cars to Portland were set out at Spokane and forwarded to Portland by the SP&S in their EMPIRE BUILDER connecting train. Eastbound the cars were brought to Spokane from Portland by the SP&S EMPIRE BUILDER connecting train.

60 REVENUE SEAT DAY COACHES Pullman Standard January 1947 (Built for and assigned to 1947 EMPIRE BUILDER reassigned to 1951 WESTERN STAR)

1110 – 1113

1114 (CB&Q)

48 REVENUE SEAT LEG REST COACHES Pullman Standard January 1947 (Built for 1947 EMPIRE BUILDER reassigned to 1951 WESTERN STAR)

1120 – 1131

1132 – 1134 (CB&Q)

The CB&Q who operated the EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago and St. Paul owned one EMPIRE BUILDER train set except for the power. The CB&Q always supplied their own power usually a pair of silver E units to power the EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago and St. Paul.
In May 1950 the Great Northern would receive three five car streamlined day trains from American Car & Foundry. Two consists were identical and were shipped to the West Coast for operation as the INTERNATIONALS between Seattle and Vancouver providing three daily round trips. The new INTERNATIONALS were inaugurated June 18, 1950 providing MORNING, AFTERNOON, and EVENING INTERNATIONALS between the two largest cities in the Pacific Northwest. Each consist was required to operate a round trip and one-half daily to maintain schedule. The major competition on this route came from Greyhound bus and Canadian Pacific Coast Steamships, the latter was owned by Canadian Pacific Railway. Canadian Pacific Steamships operated two daily steamships in competition one a day ship the other an overnight ship on the Triangle route as the Vancouver-Victoria-Seattle route was called. The two-day ships were the PRINCESS MARGUERITE and PRINCESS PATRICIA the fastest ships ever operated in this service at 23 knots, both were delivered new in 1949 and were licensed to carry 1,500 passengers each. The two night boats were the PRINCESS JOAN and PRINCESS ELIZABETH dating back to the 1930's. The two night boats were somewhat slower than the day boats but speed was not essential for the overnight runs. Both northbound and southbound the INTERNATIONALS made the following stops from Seattle, Everett, Mount Vernon, Bellingham, Blaine, White Rock, New Westminster, and Vancouver. Before many years would pass a new stop was added between Seattle and Everett named Edmonds. The Edmonds stop would be honored by not only the INTERNATIONALS but the EMPIRE BUILDER, WESTERN STAR and CASCADIANS. The total distance traveled by the INTERNATIONAL between terminals was 155 miles and the time for the 155 miles was 3 hours 55 minutes on the fastest schedule. The scenery provided along this route was nothing short of spectacular with views of Puget Sound, Olympic Mountains, Cascade Mountains, Mount Baker, Skagit Valley, the Chuckanuck, Bellingham Bay, Peace Arch, Fraser River, and Vancouver. Initially each five car INTERNATIONAL was trainlined as follows.

510 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1105 Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

1115 60 Revenue seat Coach

1116 60 Revenue seat Coach

1145 28 Revenue seat Coach 24 seat Dining Car

1195 PORT OF SEATTLE Customs Office Parlor Bedroom 17 Revenue seat Parlor 17 seat Lounge Observation

SECOND CONSIST

511 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1106 Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

1117 60 Revenue seat Coach

1118 60 Revenue seat Coach

1146 28-revenue seat Coach 24 seat Dining Car

1196 PORT OF VANCOUVER Customs Office Parlor Bedroom 17 Revenue seat Parlor 17 seat Lounge Observation

60 REVENUE SEAT DAY COACHES American Car & Foundry May, 1950 (Built for and assigned to INTERNATIONALS)

1115 – 1118

28 REVENUE SEAT COACH KITCHEN 24 SEAT DINING CARS American Car & Foundry May, 1950 (Built for and assigned to INTERNATIONALS)

1145 – 1146

The third of the five-car streamlined day trains delivered to the Great Northern Railway in May 1950 was the RED RIVER. This was for a new train service between Grand Forks and St. Paul round trip daily. With ten scheduled stops each way for the 320-mile trip, the scheduled time of seven and one-half hours was not unreasonable. The following consist of the RED RIVER is listed as inaugurated June 25, 1950.

512 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1107 Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

1137 60 Revenue seat Coach

1138 60 Revenue seat Coach

1139 60-revenue seat Coach

1147 RED RIVER 9 seat Lunch Counter 12 seat Dinette 16 Revenue seat Parlor Lounge Observation


60 REVENUE SEAT COACHES American Car & Foundry May, 1950 (Built for and assigned to RED RIVER)

1137 – 1139

The three 60 Revenue seat Coaches 1137 – 1139 were equipped with Baker heaters and heavy insulation to protect them from the arctic blasts common in winter to this area. This was done, as the cars would overnight in Grand Forks exposed to the elements while the power was tucked in the roundhouse nightly.
The Great Northern once again shocked their competition to the northwest with the announcement in 1950 that all new fifteen car streamlined EMPIRE BUILDERS would enter service in time for the busy 1951 summer season. And not only would they introduce all new EMPIRE BUILDERS but also a sixth consist of the 1947 EMPIRE BUILDER would be constructed at the same time. This was so the 1947-streamlined equipment could be used to replace the heavyweight ORIENTAL LIMITED on its slower schedule between Chicago and the Pacific Northwest. For the additional coaches for the sixth consist of the train that would be named WESTERN STAR the GN ordered an additional AC&F built 60 seat coach for the short trip travelers on the new train this was actually a sixth car added to the EMPIRE BUILDER. The only difference being car 1209 when delivered was lettered Great Northern in the Letter-board rather than EMPIRE BUILDER like the other five cars delivered between October 1950 and March 1951. The GN ordered two additional 48 seat Leg Rest Coaches from Pullman Standard again added to the order for EMPIRE BUILDER cars. These cars 1226 and 1231 were lettered Great Northern. Since the new WESTERN STAR consists required three 48 seat Leg Rest Coaches per train the Great Northern Railways third leg rest coach was a nearly new 64 seat coach purchased from the SP&S number 301. This car was delivered to the SP&S by Pullman Standard in January 1950. Since the car was already painted in EMPIRE BUILDER colors it was simply renumbered 1135 and the words Spokane Portland & Seattle were replaced by Great Northern in the letter-board. To complete the cars interior modifications the 64 seats were removed and stored in Minneapolis shops and replaced with 48 leg rest seats. The final touch was the installation of larger rest rooms for long distance service and the work was completed in November 1950.
The Great Northern inaugurated the new fifteen car streamlined EMPIRE BUILDERS June 3, 1951 the same date the WESTERN STAR was inaugurated using the five 1947 consists and one new consist. Great Northern ads and Timetables proclaimed now two Great streamlined trains daily between Chicago and the Pacific Northwest. Extra sleeping cars had been purchased for the new WESTERN STAR, as they would provide direct service to Great Falls, Montana with a set out sleeper westbound picked up eastbound at that point. The WESTERN STARS would also provide overnight sleepers in both directions between Seattle and Spokane. The following is an example of the new fifteen car EMPIRE BUILDER, less power as the CB&Q provided their own power between Chicago and St. Paul in both directions for both the EMPIRE BUILDER and new WESTERN STAR. Power for the new EMPIRE BUILDERS between St. Paul and Havre, Montana was an A-B-A set of EMD F7 units, From Havre to Seattle an A-B-B-A set of EMD F7 units was assigned. The WESTERN STAR was generally assigned the old EMPIRE BUILDER E7 units for power between St. Paul and Havre and EMD F3 or F7 A-B-A sets west of there.

42 Baggage 60’ Railway Post Office Car

1200 Baggage 22 Crew Dormitory Car

1210 60 Revenue seat Coach

1215 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

1216 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

1217 48-revenue seat Leg-Rest Coach
(Chicago – Portland)

1240 CROSSLEY LAKE G – N Ranch Car 14 seat Lunch Counter 12 seat Dining 18 seat Lounge Car

1260 SKYKOMISH RIVER 4 Section 1 Compartment, 3 Double Bedroom 7 Duplex Roomette Sleeping Car
(Chicago – Portland)

1370 ROGERS PASS 6 Roomette 5 Double Bedroom 2 Compartment Sleeping Car
(Chicago – Portland)

1261 SUN RIVER 4 Section 1 Compartment 3 Double Bedroom 7 Duplex Roomette Sleeping Car

1250 LAKE OF THE ISLES 36 seat Dining Car

1262 SNOHOMISH RIVER 4 Section 1 Compartment 3 Double Bedroom 7 Duplex Roomette Sleeping Car

1371 PITAMAKIN PASS 6 Roomette 5 Double Bedroom 2 Compartment Sleeping Car

1372 AKAMINA PASS 6 Roomette 5 Double Bedroom 2 Compartment Sleeping Car

1290 APPEKUNNY MOUNTAIN 3 Crew Roomette Buffet 36 seat High Windowed Lounge Observation

WESTERN STAR
(Departing St. Paul westbound)

1100 Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

1209 60 Revenue seat Coach

1120 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

1121 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

1122 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach
(Chicago – Portland)

1140 WATERTON LAKE 19 Crew Dormitory 10 seat Lunch Counter 10 seat Lounge Car

1150 LAKE SUPERIOR 36 seat Dining Car

1160 GUNSIGHT PASS 4 Section 8 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Chicago – Portland)

1170 BLACKFOOT GLACIER 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Chicago – Portland)

1171 AHERN GLACIER 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1161 PTARMIGAN PASS 4 Section 8 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1181 KINTLA GLACIER 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(St. Paul – Great Falls)

1190 MISSISSIPPI RIVER 2 Double Bedroom 1 Drawing Room Buffet 27 seat Lounge Observation

60 REVENUE SEAT DAY COACHES American Car & Foundry October 1950 – March 1951 (Built for and assigned to MID CENTURY EMPIRE BUILDER)

1210 – 1214

60 REVENUE SEAT DAY COACH American Car & Foundry March 1951 (Built for and assigned to WESTERN STAR)

1209

48 REVENUE SEAT LEG REST COACHES Pullman Standard November 1950 (Built for and assigned to MID CENTURY EMPIRE BUILDER)

1215 – 1225
1227 - 1230

48 REVENUE SEAT LEG REST COACHES Pullman Standard November 1950 (Built for and assigned to WESTERN STAR)

1226, 1231

The Great Northern Railway many felt had made a mistake having two daily streamliners between Chicago and Seattle – Portland when each of the competitors was only fielding one streamliner and one older heavyweight train in competition. But the Great Northern more than held its own against the competing roads where Chicago – Seattle passengers were concerned. In November 1952 the Milwaukee Road inaugurated Super Domes to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA trains one per consist. These full-length Dome cars rode on six wheel trucks to spread their massive weight out. These cars featured 68 seats on the dome level and a Buffet with Lounge on the lower level beneath the dome. It was hoped that the introduction of these non-revenue seat cars to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA would attract business back to these trains. Already since the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA was introduced a 32-revenue seat Coach 8 Section Touralux car and a 14 Section Touralux car had been discontinued since its inauguration in 1947. The Northern Pacific had fared better with the NORTH COAST LIMITED but the introduction of the Super Domes to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA sent the Northern Pacific shopping for domes of their own. The NORTH COAST LIMITED received Domes in 1954 and a new two-tone green paint scheme with white separation stripe at the same time designed by famed designer Raymond Loewy. At the same time the train was renamed the VISTA DOME NORTH COAST LIMITED. First came a pair of 46 Revenue seat Leg rest Vista dome Coaches with 24-non revenue seats in each dome. These Vista Dome Coaches replaced two of the trains 56 revenue seat leg rest coaches with the third separating the two Vista Dome Coaches. The change took place between July and August 1954. These Vista Domes built by Budd were almost identical to those built in 1948 for the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR except Budd applied non corrugated stainless steel panels to the sides of these cars for the NP and painted them to match the rest of the train. In November, 1954 each consist of the VISTA DOME NORTH COAST LIMITED received two Vista Dome Sleeping Cars replacing older sleeping cars in the train. The VISTA DOME NORTH COAST LIMITED separated the two Vista Dome Sleeping Cars with a flat roofed sleeping car to provide better viewing for their sleeping car passengers just as they had for the dome coach passengers. This gave the VISTA DOME NORTH COAST LIMITED 96 seats in Domes between Chicago and Spokane.
The next passenger train operating from Chicago to the Pacific Northwest to receive domes was the Union Pacific CITY OF PORTLAND in 1955. By the end of May that year each train set of the CITY OF PORTLAND was operating with three ASTRA DOMES in each. An Astra Dome Coach, Astra Dome Dining Car, and Astra Dome Lounge Observation. The Dome Dining Car provided table seating in the dome for 18 passengers per sitting during meal hours. Each of the other Domes provided 24 seats in the dome with the Astra Dome Coach for the exclusive use of Coach passengers and the Astra Dome Lounge Observation exclusively for the sleeping Car passengers.
The Great Northern Railway had invested far too much money in the MID CENTURY EMPIRE BUILDERS to let the business go to the competition simply because they had domes. Beginning May 29, 1955 each EMPIRE BUILDER consist began operating with three Budd built Great Domes each with 24 non revenue seats in the dome and 46 revenue leg rest seats on the main level. Two of these Great Dome Coaches operated Chicago to Seattle the third operated between Chicago and Portland. And as if that wasn’t enough dome seats the Great Northern Railway added full-length Great Dome Lounge cars for the sleeping car passengers in October 1955. The upper level seating and Lounge area under the Great Dome seated 75 and a Buffet with Lounge seating for 32 was on the lower level. With the addition of the Great Dome Lounge cars to the EMPIRE BUILDER the train became the greatest of the domes streamliners and the only domed streamliner to carry a full-length dome and three standard 24 seat domes at the same time. With 147 seats in domes the EMPIRE BUILDER had more dome seats than any other streamlined train in America at the time of the domes introduction. No wonder the ads proclaimed the train the incomparable Great domed EMPIRE BUILDER.

24 SEAT GREAT DOME 46 REVENUE SEAT LEG REST COACHES Budd Company May 1955 (Built for and assigned to EMPIRE BUILDER)

GN

1320 – 1331

SP&S

1332

CB&Q

1333 – 1335

72 SEAT GREAT DOME LOUNGE CAR /32 SEAT LOWER LEVEL LOUNGE BUFFET Budd Company October, 1955 (Built for and assigned to EMPIRE BUILDER)

GN
1390 GLACIER VIEW

1391 OCEAN VIEW

1392 MOUNTAIN VIEW

1393 LAKE VIEW

1394 PRAIRIE VIEW

CB&Q

1395 RIVER VIEW

These domes were the last new cars built for the EMPIRE BUILDERS the Dome Coaches replaced the 48-revenue seat Leg Rest Coaches in each consist. The Great Dome Lounge Car was train-lined directly behind the Dining Car in the EMPIRE BUILDER train sets. The Great Northern Railway operated the G-N Ranch Car, Dining Car and Great Dome Lounge Car on a St. Paul – Chicago – Seattle – St. Paul cycle. A fresh clean set of these cars replaced each days arriving set of these cars in the eastbound EMPIRE BUILDERS before continuing on to Chicago.
The Great Northern Railway used the streamlined coaches from 1937 as additional cars for the WESTERN STAR during summer months and the Christmas rush. Each WESTERN STAR consist was assigned one of these cars after repainting in the Empire Builder colors as the Omaha Orange, Pullman Green paint scheme with Dulux Gold separation stripes and lettering as the scheme became known. By the spring of 1952 after just one season as extra cars in the WESTERN STAR consists the GN decided they could better utilize these cars to semi streamline or streamline other train services. Two of these twelve coaches 944 and 945 were remodeled by GN shops they removed part of there seating capacity for installation of a train service galley. The seating capacity of 944 and 945 was reduced to 44 revenue seats after the installation of the train service galley and they were assigned to the new BADGER and GOPHER between St. Paul and Duluth. These cars were trainlined directly behind the head end cars of these trains. Trailing each of these cars was a pair of as built 58-revenue seat coaches numbers 946-949. The final cars in each BADGER and GOPHER train were streamlined in Great Northern Shops from heavyweight coaches and emerged as Café Parlor Observations 1083 TWIN CITIES and 1084 TWIN PORTS. The new streamlined BADGER and GOPHER train sets were inaugurated April 26, 1952 and are listed below.

267A EMD F7A 1,500 hp Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

267B EMD F7B 1,500 hp Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

81 Heavyweight Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

271 Baggage Express Car

945 Train Service Galley 44 revenue seat Coach

948 58 Revenue seat Coach

949 58 Revenue seat Coach

1083 TWIN CITIES 10 seat Dining Café 26 seat Parlor Observation

SECOND CONSIST

508 EMD E7A 2,000 hp Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

87 Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

270 Baggage Express Car

944 Train Service Galley 44 revenue seat Coach

946 58 Revenue seat Coach

947 58 Revenue seat Coach

1084 TWIN PORTS 10 seat Dining Café 26 seat Parlor Observation

The remaining 58 seat Luxury Coaches 938-943 as they were advertised when introduced to the EMPIRE BUILDER in 1937 were assigned to the west coast with four of these cars assigned to the CASCADIANS between Seattle and Spokane on a day schedule. The passenger section of these trains consisted of a pair of these cars with either 1060 or 1061 bringing up the markers of the CASCADIAN trains. The 1060 and 1061 were originally heavyweight Dining cars rebuilt to Café – reserved seat coaches and streamlined. The interiors were rebuilt with kitchen 16 seat Café and 18 seats in the reserved coach section. The rear of these cars carried a train sign on either side of the diaphragm opening proclaiming CASCADIAN with a permanent red light mounted above the diaphragm shining to the rear. In any event the CASCADIANS attained streamliner status with these cars even if it was only for a short period of time.
The remaining 938-943 cars assigned to the West Coast were generally operated in the GN Seattle – Portland pool train.
The Great Northern operated an overnight service named the WINNIPEG LIMITED between St. Paul and Winnipeg capitol of Manitoba. This excellent service operated with the best of the heavyweight equipment available from the ORIENTAL LIMITED when that train received new streamlined equipment and the new name WESTERN STAR in 1951. The coaches assigned to the WINNIPEG LIMITED at that time were the six cars rebuilt by GN shops from heavyweight Pullman Parlor cars to 52 reclining seat Coaches 990-995 for wartime assignment to the EMPIRE BUILDER. About the only thing streamlined in the 1952 WINNIPEG LIMITED was the diesel power up front. The WINNIPEG LIMITED train sets would slowly evolve into streamliners beginning in February 1952 when a GLACIER series 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom sleeping car was assigned from the newly formed WESTERN STAR – WINNIPEG LIMITED pool. A second GLACIER series-sleeping car was assigned to each WINNIPEG LIMITED consist beginning in October 1954. The WINNIPEG LIMITED trains would receive 48 revenue seat Leg rest Coaches in time for the summer 1955 schedule change. This was made possible when the EMPIRE BUILDERS received the new Great Dome Coaches in May 1955. The 1951 EMPIRE BUILDER 48 revenue seat Leg Rest Coaches were then assigned to the WESTERN STAR and the 1947 48 seat Leg Rest Coaches were available for other assignments including the WINNIPEG LIMITEDS. The remaining WINNIPEG LIMITED sleeping cars were streamlined by 1956 including the summer only Canadian National sleeping car between St. Paul and Vancouver. This car was carried to Winnipeg from St. Paul in the WINNIPEG LIMITED and transferred to the Canadian National SUPER CONTINENTAL for the remainder of the trip to Vancouver. Eastbound the reverse transpired.
The Great Northern – Northern Pacific – Union Pacific operated a pool train operation between Seattle and Portland. Each railroad provided the power and cars for one train set to operate a round trip between the two Pacific Northwest cities. For three-month periods each railroad was required to provide the power and cars for a pair of overnight trains between the two cities. Sleeping cars were operated between both Seattle and Portland and Tacoma and Portland in both directions nightly. The sleeping cars were heavyweight 12 Section 1 Drawing Room sleeping cars. The Great Northern Pool train operated with heavyweight 52 revenue seat Coaches 990-995 that had operated in the WINNIPEG LIMITED after that train received lightweight streamlined 48 revenue seat leg rest Coaches in 1955. The GN shops rebuilt a former heavyweight Solarium Observation car into a streamlined Cafe Parlor Observation and numbered the car 1082. It was identical to the two cars rebuilt and streamlined for the BADGER and GOPHER. When the GN withdrew one of the 58-revenue seat Luxury coaches from each CASCADIAN consist they were assigned to the GN pool train.
There was one other train the GN operated that carried several streamlined cars although the train itself never became streamlined and that was the DAKOTAN. The DAKOTAN operated between St. Paul and Williston. Mainly a mail and express train the DAKOTAN never the less carried a snack coach and one or two additional coaches. Many of the cars operated in the DAKOTAN were streamlined in GN shops from old heavyweights.
In November 1961 the GN received six coaches used from the C&NW. These cars were streamlined 56 seat coaches with 8 seat smoking lounges. The cars were delivered to the C&NW in the 1946 lot or 1947 lot of new cars. The GN shops completely repainted the interiors and exteriors as well as any seating repairs and refurbishing was completed before they were assigned to general service with the GN numbers 1090-1095.

56 REVENUE SEAT COACHES WITH 8 SEAT SMOKING LOUNGES Pullman Standard February – April 1946 (Ex C&NW cars purchased by GN in November, 1961 for General Service)

1090 originally C&NW 3450

1095 originally C&NW 3434

56 REVENUE SEAT COACHES WITH 8 SEAT SMOKING LOUNGES October 1947 (Ex C&NW cars purchased by GN in November 1961 for General Service)

1091 originally C&NW 3469

1092 originally C&NW 3462

1093 originally C&NW 3459

1094 originally C&NW 3475

When the RED RIVER was withdrawn from service the Great Northern Railway shops rebuilt the former streamlined Café Observation 1147 RED RIVER into a straight 68 revenue seat Coach and retained the number 1147 but dropped the name. The rebuild took place in July 1963. The rebuilding work performed on 1147 RED RIVER was as good as any of those streamlined observations rebuilt to straight coaches by Pullman themselves for the Santa Fe and other roads.
Between July and December 1963 the Great Northern received eight additional coaches from the C&NW. Unlike the earlier coaches from the C&NW these were already extensively rebuilt by Pullman Standard for the C&NW in 1958 –1959. These coaches were easily recognizable in GN service by their heavily green tinted windows. The Great Northern assigned these cars to General service just as they had the earlier cars from C&NW.

56 REVENUE SEAT COACHES WITH 8 SEAT SMOKING LOUNGES Built prewar and postwar Rebuilt by Pullman Standard between February 1958 and May 1959 (Purchased by GN for General Service in 1963)

JULY 1963

1097 ex C&NW 808 originally C&NW 3444 rebuilt April 1958

AUGUST 1963

1096 ex C&NW 801 originally C&NW 3453 rebuilt March 1958

1098 ex C&NW 825 originally C&NW 3432 rebuilt October 1958

SEPTEMBER 1963

1089 ex C&NW 821 originally C&NW 3439 rebuilt September 1958

NOVEMBER 1963

1087 ex C&NW 830 originally C&NW 3470 rebuilt October 1958

DECEMBER 1963

1086 ex C&NW 810 originally C&NW 3437 rebuilt May 1958

1088 ex C&NW 831 originally C&NW 3451 rebuilt October 1958

1099 ex C&NW 841 originally C&NW 3476 rebuilt February 1959

The Great Northern Railway would return to the C&NW several times over the next three years 1964-1966 for additional 56 seat Coaches from the C&NW as follows:

56 REVENUE SEAT COACHES WITH 8 SEAT SMOKING LOUNGE Rebuilt by Pullman Standard between February 1958 and May 1959 (Purchased by the GN between July 1964 and November 1966 for assignment to general service)

JULY 1964

1078 ex C&NW 834 originally C&NW 3435 rebuilt December 1958

OCTOBER 1964

1080 ex C&NW 842 originally C&NW 3449 rebuilt March 1959

NOVEMBER 1964

1079 ex C&NW 832 originally C&NW 3454 rebuilt December 1958

DECEMBER 1964

1081 ex C&NW 849 originally C&NW 3468 rebuilt May 1959

OCTOBER 1965

1076 ex C&NW 819 originally C&NW
3433 rebuilt August 1958

1077 ex C&NW 827 originally C&NW 3471 rebuilt October 1958

NOVEMBER 1966

1082 ex C&NW 806 originally C&NW 3436 rebuilt April 1958

The Great Northern Railway purchased four additional used 56 revenue seat Coaches in February 1966 from the SL-SF (Frisco) that had originally been built for and assigned to the METEOR trains between St. Louis and Oklahoma City. These four cars featured fluted stainless steel panels beneath the windows. The GN left the stainless steel panels in place and painted the cars in a modified Big Sky Blue scheme. These four cars were always easy to spot in whatever train they were operated in due to the bright stainless steel below the windows. The GN assigned the 56 seat coaches to the lines east where they operated in the WINNIPEG LIMITED, BADGER or GOPHER.

56 REVENUE SEAT COACHES Pullman Standard June 1948 Built for and assigned to FRISCO METEOR purchased used in February 1966 by GN assigned to General service)

1072 originally SL-SF 1253 CLAYTON

1073 originally SL-SF 1256 RICHMOND HEIGHTS

1074 originally SL-SF 1257 UNIVERSITY CITY

56 REVENUE SEAT COACH Pullman Standard July 1955 (Built for and assigned to FRISCO METEOR sold used to GN February 1955 assigned to General service)

1075 originally SL-SF 1259 PICARDY LANE

In May 1967 the Great Northern shops remodeled ex SL-SF 56 seat coaches 1073 and 1074 to Buffet 40 revenue seat Coaches with no change of numbers. These cars then provided food service in the WINNIPEG LIMITEDS.
Between December 1967 and February 1968 GN shops were busy rebuilding the five GN owned COULEE series Sleeper Lounge Observations to straight 68 seat Coaches and renumbering them 1300-1304. The rebuild performed on these cars was very similar to that performed on the 1147 RED RIVER in 1963. After completion of the work 1300-1304 were assigned to General Service.

68 REVENUE SEAT COACHES Rebuilt from COULEE series Sleeper Lounge Observations between December 1967 and February 1968 (Assigned to General Service after rebuilding)

1300 ex GN 1190 CHOUTEAU COULEE originally GN 1190 MISSISSIPPI RIVER

1301 ex GN 1191 TWELVE MILE COULEE originally GN 1191 MISSOURI RIVER

1302 ex GN 1192 CORRAL COULEE originally GN 1192 FLATHEAD RIVER

1303 ex GN 1193 ROCKY COULEE originally GN 1193 KOOTENAI RIVER

1304 ex GN 1197 GRAND COULEE originally GN 1197 PRIEST RIVER

The final purchase of used coaches by the GN came from the Union Pacific Railroad for service in the Christmas and summer operations of the EMPIRE BUILDER. At other times these cars were assigned to the WESTERN STAR. Two different manufacturers originally built these eleven 44 revenue seat Leg rest Coaches for the UP in two separate lots. Eight of the cars were built by American Car & Foundry and delivered in 1953-54 part of an order for 38 of these cars numbered 5450-5487. The other three 44 revenue seat leg rest Coaches were manufactured by St. Louis Car Company as part of an order for twelve cars delivered to the Union Pacific between February and May 1960 numbers 5488 – 5499. After purchase the car that was to be numbered GN 1005 became a parts source for the remaining ten cars. All ten cars that entered service were repainted Big Sky Blue before entering service.

44 REVENUE SEAT LEG REST COACHES American Car & Foundry November 1953 – September 1954 (Built for and assigned to CITY streamliners sold to GN June, 1969 assigned to EMPIRE BUILDER- WESTERN STAR / FAST MAIL)

1000 originally UP 5469

1001 originally UP 5470

1002 originally UP 5471

1003 originally UP 5476

1004 originally UP 5477

1005 originally UP 5478

1006 originally UP 5485

1007 originally UP 5487

44 REVENUE SEAT LEG REST COACHES St. Louis Car Company February – May 1960 (Built for and assigned to CITY streamliners GN purchased in June 1969 and assigned cars to EMPIRE BUILDER – WESTERN STAR / FAST MAIL only cars ever owned by GN built by St. Louis Car Company)

1008 originally UP 5488

1009 originally UP 5491

1010 originally UP 5492

All surviving GN streamlined coaches became BN property in March 1970, most were assigned BN numbers but few cars actually had these numbers applied to their flanks.

TTFN AL

[Anonymous]

WOW !
I have found out more about the Gt Northern in the last few days than in months of searching the internet. Many thanks for your input guy's.
Alex

[Anonymous]

WOW !
I have found out more about the Gt Northern in the last few days than in months of searching the internet. Many thanks for your input guy's.

Alex

[reklein]

From 1949 to 1963 I'd ridden the Empire Builder probably about ten times. And probably looked at the train a couple times a month in that same period. To see the Empire Builder stopped at Shelby MT was a childhood treat reinforced by my parents building a little farm kids anticipation to seeing the train. This is the first time I've heard all the details about the Empire Builder and its attendant Western Star. Seems many people these days don't know about the WesternStar. We knew the diffference however when we crossed the viaduct going over the GN mainline at Shelby. Thanks for the info "passengerfan" you truly are one.

[RedGrey62]

passengerfan, that is the most comprehensive listing I've ever seen on any passenger train operations. I have a question in regards to the paint scheme for GN passenger cars. Was the Omaha Orange and Pullman Green scheme on all lightweight cars such as the those for the Western Star and Internationals? Would the only difference be that they carried Great Northern in the letterboard instead of Empire Bulider?

I model the CB&Q lines west and want to add some occasional GN cars to my Zephyrs (I've seen pictures), seems most times it was sleepers that made it over to the Q.

Rick

[passengerfan]

RedGrey62 You are correct about the paint schemes on the GN streamliners and the lettering was correct as you stated as well. Only the EMPIRE BUILDER cars carried that name in their letterboards, all others simply carried Great Northern. The EMPIRE BUILDER carried the train name in the letterboard since its inaugural in 1929.

[wjstix]

...although GN did sometimes use "Empire Builder" lettering on cars that were not a regular part of the EB, but could be used on the train, like on trains that connected with the Builder and whose cars could be put into an EB consist. GN really preferred that every car in the train said "Empire Builder" if possible. So it wasn't unheard of to see a car lettered "Empire Builder" being used in non-EB service.