Happy Thanksgiving!
Q: How similar and how different were the Baldwin RS 4-4-15 & AS-16 road switchers from one another externally?
The reason for asking is that I discovered recently that Stewart produced a NYC AS-16 a number of years back. However, the NYC never purchased any of the prototype ones but did purchase two RS 4-4-15s (Class DRSP-3A).
I know there is a 100 HP difference between the two internally. I was primarily interested in the differences between the two externally - i.e. whether those differences would be noticeable should I purchase a Stewart AS-16 to represent a NYC RS 4-4-15 for my roster.
Thanks,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom,
I just consulted Al Staufer's "New York Central's Later Power" and the original "Diesel Spotter's Guide" by Jerry Pinkepank/ Kalmbach Publishing. Later Power simply mentions them in a roster entry stating their original numbers were 5990-5991. In 1951 they were re-numbered to 8300-8301. In 1956, they were re-engined with EMD 567s. With a final re-numbering to 7300-7301, retirement came in 1966-67.
The DSG declares the AS-16/DRS-4-4-1500 to be "externally indistinguishable". The other place I would check would be "Diesel Era" magazine. They may have done an article on Baldwins. Otherwise, I would get my Stewart unit and defy those who ask, to point out any differences.
Hi NHTX,
Thanks for the info! My copy of Later Power is buried in a box. However, I have a .pdf copy of the NYCSHS's "Central Headlight - Diesel Roster Issue 5 - '77" issue that lists some of those dates/numbers differently. Pg. 82 states that the two DRS 4-4-1500s started out with road numbers 8300 & 8301 in Jul '48, were re-numbered 7300 & 7301 in May '51, and re-numbered again 5900 & 5901 in '66 before being retired in Feb '66 & Aug '67, respectively. And it lists them as being re-powered in Apr & May of '56 with EMD 567C V-16 engines, as you mentioned.
Anyhow, if the DRS 4-4-1500 & AS-16 are indistinguishable from one another then I'm good with that and will look at picking up one of the Stewart AS-16s. Thanks again for the helpful information.
There's one (maybe) big problem. The one photo I found on the internet shows 7301 had a steam generator in the short hood for use as a switcher in passenger car yards (I'm guessing Chicago) and Stewart's model doesn't have one. How big a deal that is to you, I don't know. One course of action would be to apply steam generator castings, but you'll have to mess with the paint job
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/177470041543267435/
https://www.salvistic.top/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_17_18&products_id=22265
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192089344402
Of course, you could say that in your universe, the NYC never bought the steam generator option or removed them and installed new sheet metal on the short hood
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think it's better to know know than spend the money and find out later
Thanks for the additional information and links, Beausabre. It's a non-issue. The lettering on the Stewart "AS-16" is in the incorrect location, as well as too small. I was able to find and purchased an undecorated AS-16 on eBay today and can add the steam generator before I paint & detail it.
The steam generator is not mentioned in the specs of the RS 4-4-15s, in the "Central Headlight - Diesel Roster Issue" that I quoted earlier. Since NYC 7301 is shown in the "cigar band" paint scheme on the Pinterest webpage, I'm wondering if it was added after the re-motoring in '56 @ Collinwood?
tstageThe steam generator is not mentioned in the specs of the RS 4-4-15s,
Looks like it has a Vapor 325.
NYC_BLW_5-53 by Edmund, on Flickr
NYC_BLW_0002 by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's the April 1957 diagram after the 1956 EMD re-engine modification:
NYC_BLW by Edmund, on Flickr
Still has a Vapor steam generator but the capacity has been reduced, maybe a smaller model was installed with the engine replacement? Both engines seemed to have spent theri careers in switching duties at La Salle St. Station.
New York Central 7301 taken from Chicago's Roosevelt Road Viaduct on May 13, 1964 by Marty Bernard, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
Thanks for corroborating that, Ed, and for the additional info. The "Central Headlight - Diesel Roster Issue" .pdf file shows more limited spec information:
Would the Details West steam generator that Beausabre linked to from eBay be the correct type for the NYC RS 4-4-15?
I think those Steam generator parts will be fine. It looks like the air intake on the Baldwin is a flat-topped, screened assembly rather than the more common domed-top type but this is probably splitting hairs.
Rooftop photos are difficult to find!
Good luck, Ed
gmpullmanRooftop photos are difficult to find!
You aren't kidding, Ed. I was hoping that KV Models might have some etched-metal detail parts for the RS-4-4-15s but they don't make any (yet). I used their detail parts (i.e. louvers, grill, radiator fan) for detailing a Stewart VO-660. They make really nice parts that look great.
Is the air intake grill the one over the front top of the long hood in your photo above?
The air intake is closer to the cab, laterally opposite the horn and the exhaust stack looks like it is centered just behind the headlight. There would also be a small, 1 to 1½" pipe for the safety valve outlet.
NYC 7301 by Ryan Kertis, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
Ed,
Looking at both photos and comparing them, it looks like there are two horns; one on either side of the cab?
I agree, Tom, looks like the short hood horn was added later, probably on a second horn valve so the engineman could choose the direction of the sound.
Details like this are fun to discover Ed
tstage I was able to find and purchased an undecorated AS-16 on eBay today and can add the steam generator before I paint & detail it.
Tom, my undecorated AS-16 has a modified Athearn chassis.
If yours is like this... BE WARNED... NOTHING holds the chassis to the body. If you pick up the model by the body, the chassis can take a dive to the floor. Always pick this model up by the truck sideframes.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Kevin,
Did you pick up your Stewart AS-16 used? If so, did someone perhaps switch the chassis from an Athearn?
tstageDid you pick up your Stewart AS-16 used? If so, did someone perhaps switch chassis for an Athearn?
No. Some Stewart models used an Athearn Chassis in the kit. You can easily tell a modified Athearn chassis by the four motor mounting lug holes in the "fuel tank" area.
And of course... you can tell because the body falls off easily!
Got it! Thanks for the heads up (to avoid the "chassis down"), Kevin...
One more word of caution: If this is an earlier Athearn chassis as used on their early four axle GE's and Stewart's U25B's, the truck wheelbase between axles will only be nine scale feet, instead of Baldwin's 9' 10" per your NYC diagram. Baldwin used Westinghouse traction motors on a lot of their locomotives, which required the longer wheelbase. Other builders (Alco, FM, GE) rode on drop equalizer trucks with a 9'4" wheelbase. The Athearn truck looks lost under a Baldwin and, the disparity of four scale inches is obvious, even under the U25B, never mind a big-footed Baldwin.
Stewart has/is correcting the four inch discrepancy on more recent production but, it is still six scale inches short of Baldwin's 9'10". If it is something you can live with, go for it. I've got three U25Bs I will be replacing when their new production hits our shores.
I received the Stewart AS-16 a couple of days ago. It apparently is a very early version of the model, as there is no 8-pin socket. There is, however, a "stepped" metal clip on top of the motor that makes the connection between the positive brush of the motor and the right wheels of both trucks. The left wheels complete the circuit via the chassis:
I'd like to isolate the motor brushes from the frame so I can install at decoder but I'm unsure how the motor is secured to the chassis. There are the four holes on the underside of the fuel tank (mentioned earlier by others) that are filled with some kind of soft backfill material:
Has anyone taken one of these apart? Are there screws underneath the backfill material?
I have emailed Bowser to seek their advice but won't find anything out until early next week, at the earliest.
NHTX Tom, One more word of caution: If this is an earlier Athearn chassis as used on their early four axle GE's and Stewart's U25B's, the truck wheelbase between axles will only be nine scale feet, instead of Baldwin's 9' 10" per your NYC diagram. Baldwin used Westinghouse traction motors on a lot of their locomotives, which required the longer wheelbase. Other builders (Alco, FM, GE) rode on drop equalizer trucks with a 9'4" wheelbase. The Athearn truck looks lost under a Baldwin and, the disparity of four scale inches is obvious, even under the U25B, never mind a big-footed Baldwin. Stewart has/is correcting the four inch discrepancy on more recent production but, it is still six scale inches short of Baldwin's 9'10". If it is something you can live with, go for it. I've got three U25Bs I will be replacing when their new production hits our shores.
NHTX,
Thanks for the info on the shorter wheelbase. For now I can live with the 10" difference, which in HO scale is slightly under 0.115".
Sure, that is basically a standard Athearn "blue box" system that has been in use for probably 30 years on Athearn engines.
The motor is symetrical, with a brass/bronze clip on the top and bottom that holds the motor together and retains the brushes. It is attached to the frame with four soft rubber "feet" (the white things you see on the bottom). The bottom motor clip has a couple contacts to connect the bottom brush to the frame.
You basically can pull the motor out of those feet or push up on the feetfrom the bottom to push the feet out of the frame. Remove the bottom motr clip and flatten the contacts flush. Solder a feeder wire to the bottom contact and then cover the bottom with electrical tape. Put the whole thing back together.
Search the internet for videos on installing DCC in an Athearn blue box engine if you want to see it done.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanSure, that is basically a standard Athearn "blue box" system that has been in use for probably 30 years on Athearn engines.
Yep, you got one with the Athearn Blue Box frame, does it fall out easily like mine does?
There are no screws, just plastic press in lugs.
Dave covered it all in his post.
Thanks for the info, Dave! I'll definitely look that up.
Without the couplers added on each end, yes - the shell slides right off. With the couplers added, the shell would be secured to the chassis.
However, I have noted a single stress crack radiating outwardly in the round threaded nub on each end of the shell:
That would make me cautious about relying on it solely to hold the shell & chassis together securely. I may end up removing both rounded nubs entirely and filling in the interior space with styrene so that it's a solid mass. I can then drill & retap a new hole.
Tom: why not glue the crack shut while holding it 'closed' with a screwdriver, and then make up some solvent-softened sprue 'paste' to butter into the two pockets at the sides to prevent a relapse? That keeps the threaded hole in alignment...
That's a good notion. I had considering using Plastruct Plastic Weld to repair the crack but wasn't sure how best to press the crack closed.
Okay, I just applied Plastic Weld to each crack - one at a time - and pressed them shut with the screwdriver for 1 min plus. I'm going to let it cure completely before doing anything else.
Thanks for the suggestion, Overmod.
Lee English of Bowser emailed back yesterday and said that the above is a "super old Stewart" with the Athearn drive. He also added that Stewart was using it 15 years before he bought them.
Once I understood how the motor was secured to the chassis after watching a couple of YouTube videos, it came out with a slight amount of prying using a screwdriver. With the motor brushes now isolated from the chassis, I've pre-wired the motor and trucks for a decoder and will look at which TCS or Lokpilot motor-only decoder I want to use for this "RS 4-4-15".
tstageLee English of Bowser emailed back yesterday and said that the above is a "super old Stewart" with the Athearn drive. He also added that Stewart was using it 15 years before he bought them. Once I understood how the motor was secured to the chassis after watching a couple of YouTube videos, it came out with a slight amount of prying using a screwdriver. With the motor brushes now isolated from the chassis, I've pre-wired the motor and trucks for a decoder and will look at which TCS or Lokpilot motor-only decoder I want to use for this "RS 4-4-15". Tom
i would use a "DECODER BUDDY" board so u can use a 21 pin decoder , & i would recomend a 2 amp decoder so you dont fry it.
Thanks, Thomas. I opted for a motor-only decoder (TCS A4X) for the AS-16/RS 4-4-15. It's rated @ 1.0A cont/2.0A peak. While I enjoy sound in steam, sound in diesel grows old pretty quickly for me so I usually just outfit them with motor-only decoders.