Got yet another one for my Froum friends. I am looking to add some cars for traffic going in and out of a sugar beet plant for the 1970s era. I am modeling a yard area and want to model the traffic. I have most of the cars tracked down but the one that's giving me problems in finding a Chlorine car. (Tank cars are not in my knowledge base.) One of the suggested cars is the Atlas 17,360 gallon Chlorine tank car (https://shop.atlasrr.com/c-464-ho-master-acf-17-360-gallon-tank-car.aspx). The one problem I'm coming up with is that all the cars I'm seeing are all too new for my era. The only decorated one I see that looks possible is https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-54872-ho-17-360-gallon-chlorine-tank-car-gpbx-707.aspx only because of the COTS lablel. All the rest have the 80's version with the two boxes and the small rectangle underneath. If need be, undecs are still available, but I'd need a prototype to look at to model and the appropriate decal set(s).
As usual, any assistance that can be provided would be most welcomed.
Close to 50 years ago I worked for Wyandotte Chemicals who had a fleet of single dome light green tank cars for chlorine service. They were pretty much a standard tank car for the era and I have one on my rr but it is so old I can't tell you the manufacturer. I don't recall any safety devices in that era so a smaller single dome tank car should suffice
Broadway Limited has a number of 6000 gallon tanks cars letter for liquid chlorine. https://www.broadway-limited.com/6000gallontankcar.aspx
gene S.
Somebody needs to advise me what a sugar-beet refinery needs chlorine by the carload for.
Here is a general reference the OP can use regarding the beets:
https://www.haifa-group.com/sites/default/files/article/Sugar-Beet.pdf
I'd be inclined to think that chlorine deliveries into any model-scale beet-sugar refinery would be in the one-ton cans on their side, if not smaller.
Overmod Somebody needs to advise me what a sugar-beet refinery needs chlorine by the carload for.
For what I have been told, it is used as a disinfectant.
Mike-Ike Man Broadway Limited has a number of 6000 gallon tanks cars letter for liquid chlorine. https://www.broadway-limited.com/6000gallontankcar.aspx gene S.
I will have to do some research with those.
Being less than half the capacity of the 17K ACF cars modeled by Atlas and about ~40-50 years old by then, a lot of those would really be pushing the end of their service lives by the eighties, so again you'll have to do some research on applicable "late" schemes. (Broadway's site suggests this design was built from the 1920s-40s, so the newest of them would be 30 years old in the seventies - still workable for the 70s, but somewhat obsolete compared to the newer, larger cars.)
There's also the Atlas 11K tank which lands in the middle ground between these two designs. Some of the paint schemes will be for 40s-50s LPG/propane companies, or anhydrous ammonia, but some of them are for chlorine, just have to sort out the chemical co. cars from the oil & gas co. cars and whether the car is lettered for LPG, AA, or chlorine service.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
The current/most recent 17K tanks listed in the Atlas store are all modern paint schemes, but there were other, older schemes that are appropriate as original seventies decorations on older runs, which you might look out for on second hand flea markets/train shows/online sale and swap sites and groups.
http://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-ho173tank.htm
LastspikemikeLiquid chlorine isn't of course. Chlorine is a gas.
"Liquified" chlorine (gas under pressure).
cv_acr The current/most recent 17K tanks listed in the Atlas store are all modern paint schemes, but there were other, older schemes that are appropriate as original seventies decorations on older runs, which you might look out for on second hand flea markets/train shows/online sale and swap sites and groups. http://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-ho173tank.htm
Two lines of thought that I have come up with:
1) Can someone show me a prototype pic of one of those 17K cars, preferably in a white or almost white body? I decided to bid on an undec 17K Atlas car and do some decaling/painting. (I can't seem to find any of the schemes that work for my 70s era at least by looking at the COTS labels and what reporting marks I can read.)
2) How would an Athearn chemical car compare in size etc to one of the referenced Atlas units? If need be, I can do some kitbashing. And yes I realize the trucks aren't right but that's easily fixed. (For those who complain about this idea, look at the comment on the first point.)
Not sure about finding one in white/off-white, you'll probably end up painting it black....
These are some ACF chlorine tanks like the Atlas model:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=acfx86226&o=ge_railcar
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=acfx85409&o=ge_railcar (white car, but post-1980s repaint....)
Similar to the 17K model, but a different car builder (so different tank supports and other minor details:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=gatx50319&o=gatx (1980s repaint though)
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=utlx28256&o=utlx (1980s repaint)
These are similar to the Atlas 11K gallon tank (http://archive.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/arc-ho11ktankcar.htm), and some version of most of these paint schemes have been run by Atlas in the past:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=cgtx55211&o=cgtx
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=cgtx55220&o=cgtx
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=gatx78415&o=gatx
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=hcpx1078&o=hokx
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=shpx3536&o=shpx
cv_acr These are some ACF chlorine tanks like the Atlas model: http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=acfx86226&o=ge_railcar
Now the next question: Where would I find the right decal set to make that car? I am not great when it comes to non-Microscale decal companies.
cv_acr http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=acfx86226&o=ge_railcar
Got yet another question for the group: After doing some further research, does anyone have any more pictures of the ACFX 86117-86227 series from the 70s era as the above link is from that series? I have only found one of that series but the era is too recent.
I have two decal sheets for tank cars, most of which is for cars much too modern for my late '30s layout.
Both sets are from Microscale: MC-5019 and MC-236. There are a couple of items cut from the 236 sheet, but lots of stuff left, including GATX, NATX, ACFX, UTLX, SHPX, RTMX, AND LUCX, plus number jumbles for those roads. I did notice, though, that there are no lube plates (COTS) decals on either sheet.
The MC-5019 sheet is complete (nothing removed from it), with additional data, safety warnings, and other notations..."for emergency call..., etc., etc.
There is enough lettering to do the car that Chris has shown, except for the PENNWALT CHEMICALS lettering (and COTS).
If you're interested in the decals, all you need to do is find a way to privately send me your mailing address (my "Conversations" feature can accept messages, but I cannot use it to reply). Also, if you wish, I can photograph the decal sheets so you can see if they'll be sufficient for your needs.
Wayne
doctorwayne Both sets are from Microscale: MC-5019 and MC-236. ... Also, if you wish, I can photograph the decal sheets so you can see if they'll be sufficient for your needs. Wayne
Both sets are from Microscale: MC-5019 and MC-236. ...
Also, if you wish, I can photograph the decal sheets so you can see if they'll be sufficient for your needs.
I did a quick check of Microscale's database and it doesn't have an MC-236 that I could find. They have an 87-236 (Tank Car - Yellow & Black Lettering - GATX, NATX, UTLX, ACFX, SHPX), 87-1236 (Tank Car Lading stencils, probably needed) or an MC-4236 (ACFX 65' 33,000 Gallon Tank Cars) but in any event whichever one that set is could be useful.
I have both ACI labels and COTS panels in my large stack of decals, so that's not a problem.
So, this may be dumb, but do sugar factories actually use chlorine?
Sugar is a composition of hydrogen, carbon and oxygen.
Splenda on the other hand is (if memory serves) identical to sugar with one major exception. Some hydrogen is replaced with chlorine, thus making it indigestible, thus the zero calorie deal.
Again, I could be way off my rocker here, but I seem to recall that sugar factories would use things like phosphoric acid and activated carbon, not highly reactive chlorine.
And for disenfecting, I find it more likely they would buy a finished cleaning agent over straight chlorine. Again, could be wrong.
I have two chlorine tank cars from atlas. One is a Dow Canada scheme with bright green upper body, and black lower half. I also have another dark green Dow car lettered for their Pittsburg factory that, again, hauls chlorine. I will use these for my new layout's paper mill, because this factory uses chlorine to bleach the pulp.
I saw my LHS had at least one of the Dow Canada cars when I was there yesterday. I could put you in touch if you would like. They are an 11,000 gallon car.
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
FRRYKidI did a quick check of Microscale's database and it doesn't have an MC-236 that I could find. They have an 87-236 (Tank Car - Yellow & Black Lettering - GATX, NATX, UTLX, ACFX, SHPX), 87-1236 (Tank Car Lading stencils, probably needed) or an MC-4236 (ACFX 65' 33,000 Gallon Tank Cars) but in any event whichever one that set is could be useful. I have both ACI labels and COTS panels in my large stack of decals, so that's not a problem.
You're right...that was my mistake: the larger sheet is 87-236.
I did get your mailing address, and will send the decals tomorrow.
JDawgSplenda on the other hand is (if memory serves) identical to sugar with one major exception. Some hydrogen is replaced with chlorine, thus making it indigestible, thus the zero calorie deal.
I could be way off my rocker here, but I seem to recall that sugar factories would use things like phosphoric acid and activated carbon, not highly reactive chlorine.
http://nsi.gov.in/study-materials/ANSI(ST)-III_Manufacturing-I_05052020.pdf
Look up 'carbonatation' for more.
Note that older Indian processes used SO2 as part of decolorizing, which made the result illegal for sale in the United States.
Note also the use of diatomaceous earth for product filtering instead of activated carbon, I suspect because it would be easier to regenerate or cheaper to replace.
I've finally started to decal the Atlas car that I have. I have run into more detail questions however. In this picture (http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=acfx86226&o=ge_railcar), I have two
The text on both is illegible in the photo. I'm trying to get the car as accurate as possible. Thank you for the continued assistance.
The chlorine is used as a disinfectant. Here is a list of the commodities received and shipped from a sugar beet plant
PRODUCTS USED TO PROCESS SUGAR BEETS RCV/ CAR HAZMAT PRODUCT SHIP TYPE NUMBER PLACARD USE Sugar Beets R Beet Gondola Lime R Covered Hoppers Remove solids from sugar solution Calcium Hydroxide R Tank 1910 8 (Corrosive) Clean sugar mixture Amonium Bisulfite R Tank 2693 8 (Corrosive) Disenfectant solution Chlorine R Tank 1017 2.3 (Poison Gas) Disinfectant Sulfer Dioxide R Tank 1833 8 (Corrosive) Disinfectant solution Sulfer Dioxide R Tank 1079 2.3 (Poison Gas) Disinfectant, inhibit liquified darkening Sugar Dust In-House Started for crystalization Isopropyl Alcohol R Tank 1219 3 (Flammable Aids in crystalization Liquid) Boxes R Boxcar Glass Bottles R Boxcar Labels R Boxcar Glue R Tank, Boxcar Dried beet pulp S Hoppers Livestock & pet food Molasses S Tank, Boxcars Liquid Sugar S Tank Light Brown Sugar S Boxcar, Covered Hopper Dark Brown Sugar S Boxcar, Covered Hopper Granulated Sugar S Boxcar, Covered Hopper Confectionary Sugar S Boxcar, Covered Hopper
FRRYkid,
The information stencilled beneath "chlorine" is hydrostatic test date and valve test information and its required on ALL tank cars, owned or leased.
The line to the right of the ladder, on the tank reads, "Leased to Pennwalt Corp". Lessee name must appear on all tank cars, regardless of what the rest of the graphics say and, the vicinity of the ladder is the preferred location. On most cars today, those two inch high letters are the only way to identify the lessee.
NHTXLessee name must appear on all tank cars, regardless of what the rest of the graphics say
I would say 90% of the tank cars I've photographed I can't find any such indication of the leseee anywhere on them....
Chris,
What was the time frame of your photography? I shot over 7,000 cars of all sort down here in TX, between 1978 and 1986 and that was the practice then, along with what was carried, as in the photo FRRYkid is referring to. I see now, cage-like structures around manway/bonnet areas, yellow striping everywhere, no COTS or Chemtrec labels, etc, etc. The 33,000 gallon LPG cars are vanishing-a lot has changed in 35 years!
If that's todays practice, the only way to have an idea of what is being shipped by whom is the HAZMAT placard and the conductors wheel report. I would hate to be a first responder coming up on a bunch of derailed tank cars relying only on those two sources of info. Its time for a new copy of the HAZMAT rules. Fortunatley, my son is a trucker, and is hooking me up with them, when he comes home next month.
Cheers,
NHTX FRRYkid, The information stencilled beneath "chlorine" is hydrostatic test date and valve test information and its required on ALL tank cars, owned or leased. The line to the right of the ladder, on the tank reads, "Leased to Pennwalt Corp". Lessee name must appear on all tank cars, regardless of what the rest of the graphics say and, the vicinity of the ladder is the preferred location. On most cars today, those two inch high letters are the only way to identify the lessee.
Any idea where I might find an HO decal set with that information on it even if it isn't exactly right to the prototype? (I doubt I'd find the "Leased to" info and my eyes are not up to trying to piece 2" letters. Two inch stripes are bad enough to deal with and I know about those as my protolanced passenger scheme uses 2" stripes in it.) I have an MC-5020 set if that helps any.
NHTXIf that's todays practice, the only way to have an idea of what is being shipped by whom is the HAZMAT placard and the conductors wheel report.
Or by calling Chemtrec (manned 24x7 with a toll free number). Or by calling the railroad (who has the conductor's wheel report, and have emergency centers that are manned 24x7 with a toll free number).
Having the lessee stenciled on the side of the car in 2 inch letters basically proves the car isn't carrying hazmat, becaue if you can get close enough to read it, then the car probably isn't leaking or hazardous. Calling the lessee is normally a waste of time because there are 10's of thousands of lessees and finding the the specific division responsible for that car and then finding somebody awake who has info on the car is a time consuming process. On the other hand calling Chemtrec or the railroad emergency response number can get you exactly the information you need to respond in a matter of minutes and then they will track down a representative of the shipper.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Is this for cars that have had their placards damaged or destroyed in an accident? I thought the whole modern premise was that first responders had either a physical or electronic Orange Book or equivalent, and would follow appropriate procedure based on looking up placard numbers...
I would be interested to know what the exact procedure used to determine contents of a car with illegible placarding. It might be difficult to 'assume the worst' (as with signal aspects) because the correct response for one type of hazmat might be contraindicated for another.
These might have disappeared by the OP's '70s era:
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/2014/building-railroad-chlorine-car/
This was the particular style that I remember most as a kid. Seems like at least a couple of these in most lengthy freight consists enroute west out of Detroit on the Michigan Central. It was so distinctive that I probably overlooked liquid chlorine products in any tank car.
The model above appears to be using AAA batteries for the containers. As I recall, the prototypes had concave ends. These might have been the horizontal units that Overmod referred to in his first post in this string (on Nov 6th, last).
Hoping for someone to find and post a prototype photo of the type modeled above. That would be helpful not just to model proper ends, but for estimating their size and noting how many per car.
John
EDIT: Well that was easy. Here's an attested image from 1967. Perhaps the '70's was not beyond reach:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=68667
And here's a drawing of a container - 30" x 82" according to another site:
https://www.advancewatertreatment.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Chlorine-gas-ton-container-from-inside-768x435.jpg
When decaling tank cars, a lot of the lettering is going to have to be "good enough". No one makes lettering to cover every car type, commodity, and lessee out there. Fortunately for us in HO a number of manufacturers produce decals for cars of a wide span of time. My first go-to is www.greatdecals.com which touts itself as, The Grand Central Station of Decals. Under "suppliers" you will find just about all commercial producers of model railroad decals.
Some of the ones you might wish to investigate and become familiar with the offerings of include: Al Fergerson Black Cat Publishing, Highball Graphics, Illinos Central Gulf Decals by Daniel Kohlberg, K4 Decals, Mask Island Decals, National Scale Car (formerly Speedwitch Media), Protocraft Decal Line, and Tichy Train Group, in addition to the usual Microscale.
All of the aforementioned make tank car sets in addition to other car types, usually in the common black, white, or yellow. Many of the sets are for older cars but, the info you are looking for spans many years, and you have already made peace with the fact that it probably won't be word-for-word, digit-for-digit anyway. Don't give up on Microscale completely, either. I believe their 87-1 (?) dimensional data as well as their other tank car sets can be raided for usable data. If you ever run across any Islington Station sets, grab them up, whether you need them or not. Those folks made sets for tank cars based on the industry groups they served such as paper, petroleum, food, etc.
One more thing to consider is an adequate reference library. At the least, I reccommend Morning Sun's two Tank Car Color Guides. Since you are modeling the 1970s, and ALL of the pictures are in color, along with informative captions, these books just might save you money. I was going to get some 19,000 gallon corn syrup cars and found out the cars I was considering didn't appear until 1995 and I model 1984. To many that doesn't matter but, to me-no sale. I tend to believe fidelity to prototype is also important to you so, consider the acquisiton of prototype reference material. I hope you find what you need.