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Queston on smoke box color on UP 844

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Queston on smoke box color on UP 844
Posted by Deane Johnson on Monday, January 11, 2021 5:34 PM

When Athearn Genisis made the last run of the HO UP 844 a year or so ago I purchased one, but being in the middle of layout construction, I put it on the shelf unopened.

Today I decided to open it and put it on the layout.  I was totally shocked by the smoke box and the fire box being pure bright white, not the usual smokey silver color or graphite.  Looks awful.  I didn't even take the tender out of the packaging I was so put off by the color.

I don't remember Union Pacific ever having a pure white smoke box, always silver or graphite color, and of course, usually sort of dark from smoke.

It's unlike a manufacturer such as Athearn to release something that far off in color, so I'm wondering what I missed out on.  UP wouldn't be able to use white paint on a smoke box or fire box due to heat.  I would think they would be limited to something like graphite, not white paint.

Does anyone happen to have any recollections or knowledge of a pure white smoke box. I'm thinking I'm missing something here.  This engine may have to end up on the "dispose of" stack.

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

Deane

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, January 11, 2021 7:12 PM

There have been lots of discussions over the years — not just UP of course — but plenty on PRR Brunswick Green (DGLE) or, speaking of silver/white, the NKP Alco "bluebirds" raise lots of controversy over the white paint (it started out from Alco as silver and the NKP gradually added more white in repaints over the years).

This site has a few photos of 844 showing "bright" silver (looks white under bright sunlight) all the way to a dark, gunmetal gray (graphite).

 

Scroll down a bit:

https://www.american-rails.com/844.html


 

 In the 1980s before the renumbering, the smokebox was much brighter.

 UP_8444 by Edmund, on Flickr

If you're brave enough, try giving the smokebox a wash with India ink diluted with alcohol. This makes a nice layer that tones down the color and brings out details. Practice on a similar bright color first.

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by Deane Johnson on Monday, January 11, 2021 7:44 PM

Usually the lighter color was actually sort of a graphite coating due to the heat, not paint.  This model has both the entire smoke box and the fire box painted gleaming white.

Here's a TrainWorld video of the engine showing the colors very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTusmW6W2y4

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, January 11, 2021 9:37 PM

The only 'white' smokebox paint I can recall was the Boston & Albany, and that was only the 'face' -- the front with smokebox door.

Certainly a white firebox would make no particular sense for any particular length of time.  

While I can't get to my copy of Kratville's Mighty 800, I don't recall ever reading about 'white' paint on the smokebox -- although driver tires were white, IIRC even running-board edges were silver gray.  I certainly don't remember seeing either pictures or the engine in person with a white smokebox ... let alone a white firebox.  

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, January 11, 2021 11:47 PM

Deane Johnson
Here's a TrainWorld video of the engine showing the colors very well.

I agree, after seeing the video, I can see a distinct difference between the aluminum bearing caps and the white of the smoke box/firebox.

I did read some of the comments by Don Strack in UtahRails that sometimes UP used aluminum paint rather than graphite and oil.

Athearn, among other model manufacturers, have taken heat over paint and detail shortcomings. I see there are several complaints in the YouTube video comments  about the white paint. Sorry I can't offer more.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by doctorwayne on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 1:29 AM

Some views:

HERE

HERE

HERE

...and HERE

Wayne

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 1:56 AM

This is UNION PACIFIC 833 at the Railroad Museum in Ogden, Utah. I photographed it in April, 2019.

When I saw it, I was surprised that the smokebox was painted a very light gray. Not quite white, but the next best thing.

-Kevin

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 5:35 AM

gmpullman
In the 1980s before the renumbering, the smokebox was much brighter. UP_8444 by Edmund, on Flickr

Ed,

I think your wash on the smokebox suggestion is a good one.  That said, that photo you posted has been undeniably shopped by someone.  The detail on the front of the smokebox (e.g. number plate) and the right signal stand (numbering) is too crisp and the grass along the hillside on the right looks a bit too Monet-ish.  Great shot though.

Tom

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Posted by NorthBrit on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 6:14 AM

We have the same challenges here in the UK over colors of certain locomotives,  carriages etc.

Mostly, the differences happen over time (say a locomotive) has left the workshops.  From being 'pristine'  to becoming rather dull.  

 

When a manufacturer makes a model  they tend to make the item as it first appeared.   I am sure that is what Athearn have done.  (I stand to be corrected. Not all Manufacturers have been correct.)    Any 'wear and tare'  is then up to the purchaser.  

Ed's suggestion of a wash on the smokebox is a good one.

 

David

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Posted by Deane Johnson on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 7:05 AM

I appreciate the responses and information.

I'll probably just take my beating and try to sell it to someone who isn't bothered by the white color (if they exist).  I'm not a rivet counter, but I do want the overall affect to reflect reality. The wheels have never touched a track and the tender wasn't even opened.  I've never sold on eBay so I don't want to get tangled up in their technicalities.  I guess I've got some thinking to do.  I will probably never again buy an Athearn engine.  What's the old saying . . . "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.Sad  

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 7:29 AM

This is the "official" picture of the model from the Athearn website.

While very lightly colored, the smokebox does not look white to me. Perhaps somehow a painting step was missed in your model.

-Kevin

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Posted by NorthBrit on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 7:52 AM

On a UK Forum site they have a section where items can be sold.   The item can only be sold on the Forum and nowhere else.  A buyer and the seller agree payment and sale is made.

If after a length of time and the item is not sold the seller takes it down and tries to sell elsewhere.

 

David

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 9:23 AM

Deane Johnson
I appreciate the responses and information. I'll probably just take my beating and try to sell it to someone who isn't bothered by the white color (if they exist). I'm not a rivet counter, but I do want the overall affect to reflect reality. The wheels have never touched a track and the tender wasn't even opened. I've never sold on eBay so I don't want to get tangled up in their technicalities. I guess I've got some thinking to do. I will probably never again buy an Athearn engine. What's the old saying . . . "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Might it not be easier, assuming the engine runs well, to just weather or repaint those parts of the engine? Most pre-decorated model railroad products are made to look like they just came out of the paint shop; it's up to the modeller to weather the item if they want to make it look more like an "in service" engine or car.

You can get black weathering powders that will turn the white to gray in a few seconds. I personally like to cover engines with a light coating of powdered charcoal then seal that in with flat finish from a spray can.

Acrylicos Vallejo paint can be brushed on easily and give a good result; paint the offending parts with a gray color that looks right to you using say a 1/8" flat brush.

 

 

Stix
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 9:34 AM

wjstix
Acrylicos Vallejo paint can be brushed on pretty easily and give a good result;

Yes Vallejo Oily Steel makes a good smokebox color.

-Kevin

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Posted by dti406 on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 10:50 AM

Custom painted who did mine in the Greyhound Scheme used Scalecoat Graphite and Oil for the Smokebox and Firebox.

Rick Jesionowski

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 10:50 AM

If I recall correctly, the UP Heritage people have at least experimented with using high-temperature aluminum paint instead of 'graphite and oil' or other legacy methods.  That would be silver, bright in sunlight, that would probably weather to a light (metallic?) gray.

I seem to remember there was some experimentation with thermal barrier coatings, some of which are white.  Asking this on a more technical forum like RyPN might produce information ... or might produce another round of anti-Dickens clamoring saying a great deal but not meaning nearly as much.  

Here is a picture of the lady in question at reasonable resolution; the light is a little peculiar but I think you can make out details of the finish:

https://railpictures.net/showimage.php?id=693454&key=6263294

and this appears to show the firebox in reasonably full sun, with the smokebox in the shade of the deflector:

https://railpictures.net/photo/699114/

If this is aluminum paint, it has likely 'weathered' a while, and therefore is the 'look' you might want to achieve for a 'clean' engine that has run a few miles in service before.

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, January 13, 2021 12:25 AM

tstage
That said, that photo you posted has been undeniably shopped by someone.

I gave it a little "gausian blur" correction. Here's the Roger P u t a original:

 Steam Between Signals -- 2 Photos by Marty Bernard, on Flickr

There are several more shots in the same series. They all seem to show the smokebox front both at a distance and usually in a shadow Bang Head

 Five of UP 8444 in Colorado in July 1981 by Marty Bernard, on Flickr

Regards, Ed

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