Hi guys,
Hoping for some knowledge here from all of you since this is a first for me.
I just ordered some Scaletrains SP SD40T-2 locomotives that have classification lights on the nose and tail that change from white to red to green.
Searching online I found that white is forward for an unscheduled train, green is also forward and red rear facing.
So to start correct me if I'm wrong there.
My main question is this. Say I have 5 lashed together in a consist. Should the classification lights only be on the first and last loco? I can't see them having them on all the middle locomotives. Just doesn't make sense to me but I want to do it right.
Anyone know that can educate me?
Thank you!
Mike
You're correct on the white being for an unscheduled (Extra) train, while the green indicates that there are other "sections" of the same train following (usually referring to passenger trains, but not always). Each "section" will also display the green lights, except for the last one, on which the lights will not be lit, indicating that no more sections are following.
On your five-unit lash-up, only the lead locomotive would have the class lights lit, and only if the train was either an extra (with white class lights on) or was the first train of one with multiple sections, displaying green class lights.The rest of the locos would not have class lights lit at all, unless the fifth locomotive was on the rear of the train. In that case, it would display red to the rear.
There are several others here who can probably give you more info on this (and correct me if my answer is in error, too).
Wayne
It is just irritating that model manufacturers tend to make the default colors of class lights green and red when they are the least likely colors to be displayed. The most common colors for class lights are dark (off) or white. I worked for a real railroad for 37 years and never saw a situation where a green class light was needed.
Pre-1985: The lead unit would generally have the white class lights lit and if it was a helper, the trailing of the rear unit would have the red lights lit. It would be exceedingly rare for the green lights to ever be lit, because by the time the SD40T-2 was built, scheduled freight trains were pretty rare and sections would be even rarer. The class lights on any of the intermdeiate units would be off.
Post 1985: All the class lights would be dark except if the unit was being used as a rear helper, then the trailing end would have the red lights lit. Also after 1985 they started plating over the class lights with sheet metal.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
While it is just about never done by modelers, if the class lights are lit the lead unit should also display a pair of flags of the same color. If displaying green, don't forget to exchange the correct whistle signals with every train met or overtaken.
Probably more information than you wanted!
cx500While it is just about never done by modelers, if the class lights are lit the lead unit should also display a pair of flags of the same color. Probably more information than you wanted!
I thought flags were only used during daylight hours and in replacement of/alternative to the classification lights?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Since the locomotive in question is an SD40T-2, flags are pretty much superfluous and since sections are so rare, there will be very little call for whistle signals for sections and none after about 1985.
Steam engines maybe so.
Most rule books allow either flags or lights be day and lights by night, but don't require both.
I don't remember the date but at some point Chessie(or maybe it was CSX)required the headlight on dim to be used as a rear marker instead of the red marker lights. The red lights were really referred to as marker lights rather than class lights.
Mark Vinski
1985??? When I hired in 1972 class lights were long gone and a dim headlight was considered the marker of a locomotive if it was the rear of the train.
Class lights went obsolete (no longer needed) when districts were CTC'ed. This started in the age of steam...long before even 1972.
.
Southern Pacific' first SD-40T-2s, (8300-8306 masters and 8350-8356 remotes) arrived in 1974. At that time, class lights were still standard equipment on all road locomotives. In the 1970s many railroads had begun operating their freight trains as extras, even though they still had a de facto schedule. With no passenger trains to be concerned with, all freight trains running as extras, all trains were of the same class, which could not be indicated by lights that only denoted "extra", "section", or "rear of train". The need for class lights had disappeared and in 1985, they were being deleted from locomotives on the SP.
I had the great pleasure of spending from 1978 to 1986 in SP country and became closely acqainted with the railroad and its employees. By this time SP had adopted letter symbols as train identifiers although, dispatchers handled them by "extra", and the number of the lead locomotive, and the direction of travel from San Francisco, CA. Example: Extra 8305 East, with a symbol of 01 WCESP 25, which in plain English would be the first (01) West Colton (WC) to East St. Louis (ES), Perishables, originating on the 25th day of the month. If traffic was heavy enough to run a second perishables train between West Colton and East St. Louis, it would be symboled 02 WCESP 25 and identified by the lead unit number as Extra such and such.
With all trains running as extras, priority was indicated by the fifth letter of the symbol. The most common priorities I encountered highest to lowest are: F, A, P, T, and Y, which later became M. These in common speak are F= Forwarder, which offered guaranteed delivery for such shippers as UPS. A= Automotive, assembled vehicles or parts, to feed the assembly lines with "just-in-time" deliveries. P=pershables-self explanatory. T=TOFC/COFC is used to give a train a higher priority, even if it is carrying no trailers or containers. If the train was carrying hazmat such as FCG (flammable compressed gas, the fifth letter became K.
The SP rulebook, the General Code of Operating Rules effective October 28, 1985, makes no mention of lights denoting the class of trains and requires markers only on the rear of the train. Rule 19, which addresses markers requires an engine operating without cars or, at the rear of a train, display the rear headlight on dim, as a marker as is done today, with DPUs, which is why there is no FRED on the coupler of the rear unit.
Also, the number boards are only required to be lit on the lead unit of the locomotive consist. Model companies, in their efforts to outdo each other, have provided the purchaser with features that have disappeared from the prototype or, make no sense, such as the horn blowing each and every time the locomotive changes direction.
Mike, because you purchased some SP 'T-2s, I hope this gives you an insight how and why the late, great, Southern Pacific did what it did.
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5150WS6My main question is this. Say I have 5 lashed together in a consist. Should the classification lights only be on the first and last loco? I can't see them having them on all the middle locomotives. Just doesn't make sense to me but I want to do it right.
Red lights are markers and are only on the rear of the TRAIN - i.e. the only time they'd be displayed on an engine is if the engine is a rear-end pusher or running light without a caboose. Normally marker lamps are hung on the caboose, or last car of a passenger train.
The green or white classification lights, if required to be displayed, will ONLY be on the front of the lead locomotive.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
NHTXIn the 1970s many railroads had begun operating their freight trains as extras, even though they still had a de facto schedule. With no passenger trains to be concerned with, all freight trains running as extras, all trains were of the same class, which could not be indicated by lights that only denoted "extra", "section", or "rear of train". The need for class lights had disappeared and in 1985, they were being deleted from locomotives on the SP.
Railroads started running trains as extras and used "service schedules" at least as far back as the 1920's, if not earlier.
The 1985 date is when many of the rule books changed, track warrants or their equivalent became widespread and train orders (and the superiority of trains) was phased out. "About" 1985 was because train orders were phased out over a period of a year or so. I hired out on the railroad in 1979 and at that time about the only place that we used "regular" trains were locals on branch lines, a couple premium trains on non-CTC routes and Amtrak when not on CTC routes. The MKT ran regular, scheduled, freight trains right up until 1985 when the GCOR took over.
Once a railroad cut over to track warrants and abandoned train orders, the concept of "superiority of trains" ceased to exist and made class lights irrelevant. Since the FRA requires things on an engine to work, rather than have to maintain the class lights, the railroads removed them and plated over the holes to eliminate having to maintain them (make sure they work, test them, replace bulbs, lenses, switches, fuses, etc).
NHTXBy this time SP had adopted letter symbols as train identifiers although, dispatchers handled them by "extra", and the number of the lead locomotive, and the direction of travel from San Francisco, CA. Example: Extra 8305 East, with a symbol of 01 WCESP 25, which in plain English would be the first (01) West Colton (WC) to East St. Louis (ES), Perishables, originating on the 25th day of the month. If traffic was heavy enough to run a second perishables train between West Colton and East St. Louis, it would be symboled 02 WCESP 25 and identified by the lead unit number as Extra such and such.
The SP system was very different in how it handled symbols than the MP/UP system. In the SP system one could not create a an ad hoc symbol, every train symbol had to start out as a clone of an existing sysmbol. A section of an existing symbol that followed close to the same route would be created and then detoured on either end to fit the actual route of the train. If I wanted to run a train from City of Industry, CA to the TRRA in St Louis, I could take the WCESP schedule , create a 03 WCESP and then detour it from City of Industry to W Colton, and then terminate it at the TRRA instead of the ALS at ESTL. The symbol might say it was the WCESP, but it might not originate at WC, might not terminate at ES and might not be a perishable train.
The UP system could do that but was set up to handle ad hoc symbols. We would create a new symbol XCISL (extra-City of Industry-St Louis) then take a generate route symbol or an existing train symbol, copy the station ranges, detouring or annuling the route to go to the places you wanted. The symbol would say it was the XCISL.
Two different ways to get to the same place.
Man! All you guys rock! Thank you!
Appreciate the clarification and extra info as well!
I would suggest picking up a rulebook for the railroad and era you are interested in.Fun fact: The 1986 GCOR (which I use) has provisions for train orders and extras, but does NOT require extra trains display white flags or lights. True fact!
Since the 1987 GCOR does away with train orders, I suspect the 86 version was assuming radios for verification of opposing trains.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Canadian railways were still using train orders on some lines into the early 1990s. The new CROR (Canadian Rail Operating Rules) were introduced in the early to mid 1990s, replacing the old 1962 Uniform Code of Operating rules used in Canada, and dropping TT/TO rules in favour of the new systems.