UP/SP consists for the City of SF and SF Overland trains

[Anonymous]

Hi
Does anyone know the typical consists for UP/SP's consists for the SP portion of the City of SP and SP Overland passenger trains over Donner Pass between 1952 and 1954.
Also. does anyone have information on the paint shemes.
I know the UP cars were yellow and gray w red stripes.
I also heard the SP cars were the same color
However, did the SP provide cars that were not yellow and gray?
Did the SP use F-7 Black Widows?
Any info would be appreicated
thanks
John

[M636C]

John,

At that period, the trains were matched in UP yellow grey and red, with the road name of the car owner painted in UP style lettering, both SP and C&NW. Remember at this period C&NW operated the trains east of the UP terminus into Chicago. The number of cars provided was based on the share of the distance on each railroad (and the income they got from fares). SP cars tended to have numbers while UP sleeping cars had names. Some SP cars were Budd cars with fluting. The streamliner that was stranded on Donner Pass about that time had SP Alco PA/PB units in Daylight colours, but F units may have been used from time to time, and they would have been "Black Widow". Not many SP F-7s were equipped for passenger work. I'll check my reference for the train composition and get back to you. The SP also operated "The Lark" in two tone grey at this time, and it is possible that some sleeping cars in that colour operated from time to time on the Overland route.

Peter

[SP4449]

If you can get your hands on a copy of "The Union Pacific Streamliners" by Harold Ranks and William Kratville, copyright 1974, third printing 1980, Kratville Publications, you will have a definitive description of the City of San Franciso Streamliners (all other City Trains included at no extra cost) from the beginning. Check your local library or railroad historical society. The UPRR Historical Society <http://uphs.org> should be able to help as well. Good Luck. It was a great train.

[M636C]

John,

It is indeed the Kratville "Streamliner" book I am using! On page 324, five consists of the "City of San Francisco" as at 31 March 1950 are quoted. I'll quote the "Tenth Train" (UP counted trains from M-10000 as the "First Train").

Baggage-Dorm - UP 5700 series
60' RPO Mail - CNW5225 or UP 5900 series or SP5000 series
Baggage- Dorm - SP3101
Coach 44 seat - SP2489
Coach 44 seat - CNW 6148
Coach Lounge - CNW 3420
Diner Kitchen - Fort Mason SP10225
Diner - St Francis Woods SP10226
Club Lounge - UP 2986
Sleeper 4-3 - Seal Rocks UP
Sleeper 12 sect - Union Square UP
Sleeper 12-5 - Telegraph Hill SP 9251
Sleeper 4-4-2 - Hunter Point CNW
Sleeper 10-5 - Rincon Hill SP 9201
Sleeper 10-6 - Pacific Emblem UP

The book, of course gives the other four trains, but they are generally similar in make up. I would expect that the 1952 compositions were similar.

To correct my earlier post, while C&NW cars used UP style lettering, SP cars used extended Roman lettering, in black edged red lettering. The car colours were all UP yellow grey and red.

Peter

[SP4449]

Peter is correct and there is one area of discussion between model manufacturers as to the color of the trucks. Some paint them silver (aluminum), others leaf brown, others grey. All trucks were grey at the time of your interest and were finally painted aluminum after a letter published March 1952.

Another point of interest - there were no dome cars in the City train until after the first ones were reluctantly purchased in 1954 when the rr ordered 10 dome-coaches.

And -

The power for the train Peter described was a three unit E6 locomotive numbered 985J, 985BJ, 985CJ - A-B-B configuration.

[markpierce]

Check out challengerimports.com under "arrivals" lists individual cars it will be importing in several sets for the city of san francisco, era early 50s... apparently the SP and UP used their own diners on their parts of the train's run... this should give you a good idea of the prototype's consist.

[Anonymous]

The City of San Fransisco had a variety of consists during 1952-54. Five sets of equipment were required to protect the schedule at that time, but many of the cars in the trains were one- or two-of-a-kind. Some of these cars were carry-overs from the pre-war City trains which only ran a couple of times per week.

The City of San Fransisco included the following types of cars at the time in question:

A mail storage car
An 85-foot RPO with a 60-foot mail apartment
A baggage-dormitory
2 or more coaches
A coffee shop-lounge (several different configurations used)
A dining car (again, several different configurations were used)
A club-lounge car for sleeping car passengers
Several Pullman sleeping cars, offering open sections, roomettes, double bedrooms, drawing rooms and (in 2 cars only) duplex roomettes. The C&NW timetable recited appropriately at that time respecting sleepers: "Some of these cars do not operate evey trip. Consult ticket agent for particulars."

Regularly-assigned cars (whether from UP, SP or C&NW) were painted in Armour yellow and Harbor Mist gray, with red striping and lettering (letters and numbers outlined in black). All trucks at this time were painted gray.

After May 1953, the train was standardized with a rounded-end SP 10-6 sleeper as the last car in the consist. Also in 1953, some of the pre-war sleepers were re-assigned to the City of Denver.

The San Fransisco Overland had a slightly more standardized consist at the time, in part because it had operated for some time as a daily train. On the SP, the consist included:

A variety of mail storage and express cars (traffic much heavier westbound than eastbound)
A baggage-dormitory
Several coaches. The San Fransisco-Chicago cars might be SP, UP or C&NW; the San Fransisco-St. Louis cars might be SP, UP or Wabash.
An SP heavywight coffee shop-lounge
A 48-seat diner (most were SP)
A club-lounge (again, most were SP)
A 4-4-2 Pullman for Chicago
A 6-6-4 Pullman for Chicago
A 10-6 Pullman for Chicago
A 10-6 Pullman for New York City (via NYC and PRR, on alternating days)
A 6-6-4 Pullman for St. Louis
A 6-6-4 Pullman for Salt Lake City
(During part of the time period in question) an SPparlor-observation car for Reno

Regularly-assigned cars for the San Fransisco Overland were painted two-tone gray until 1952, when they gradually were repainted into Armour yellow and gray. The observation cars stayed in Daylight colors.

Staring in October 1954, SP heavyweight hamburger-grill cars (painted in Armour yellow and gray) began to replace the coffee shop-lounges. SP 3/4 length domes (also painted Armour yellow and gray) were assigned to the Overland in 1955.

UP dome cars -- whether coaches, diners or lounges--were never assigned to the Ogden-Oakland route.

Regularly assigned locomotives for the City of San Fransisco and the Overland between Ogden and Oakland during this time period were Alco PAs and PBs--painted in Daylight colors.

[Anonymous]

A word about the diners and lounge cars on the City of San Fransisco and the Overland during 1952-54:

All of these cars were individually owned by the sponsoring railroads by this time, but they operated through between Chicago and Oakland on the City of San Franscisco. With the exception of cafe-lounge or coach-lounge cars, this was also the case on the Overland.

A coach-club car operated between Chicago and Oakland on the Overland; it was replaced by a heavyweight SP cafe-lounge between Ogden and Oakland. C&NW had a total of 8 coach-club cars (rebuilt from prewar 400-type coaches) at this time, and UP then had 4 coach-clubs(rebuilt from prewar Challenger nurse-room coaches). The coach-club cars were assigned both to the Overland and to the Los Angeles Limited during this time period.

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone:
Thank you for your replies
They are incredibly helpful.
Sounds like for say the year 1953, a variety of equipment and colors can be used esp for the SF Overland, including Budd cars (for SP), heavyweights, and "smoothside" streamliners.
Most should be UP Armour yellow, but I can have 2 tone gray for some of the SP cars.
I also assume, concering modeling, that most of the cars should be 'smoothside" streamliners and not Budd cars w fluted sides.
Would most of the cars be streamliners?
How many heavywieights would still be around in 1953 -- someone did mention a heavyweight SP coffee shop lounge car.
I assume some of the mail and RPO cars (like for the SF Overland) could have been heavyweights. Would some of the heavywieights be pullman green or all 2 tone gray or armour yellow?
Given 1953 as the year I am modelling -- no dome cars.
No SP cars that are silver w red stripes??

Thanks again!!!

John

[Anonymous]

Only the Sunset Limited From Budd in stainless steel with Scarlet letter boards.
Consist of Train 27
Storage Mail Ogden-Oakland from CBQ/UP-SP-originated in Chicago
Storage Mail Ogden-Oakland " " " "-originated in Chicago
Storage Mail " " " " from CBQ/UP-SP-originated in Chicago
Storage Mail Ogden-Oakland from CBQ/UP-SP-originated in Chicago
Storage Mail Ogden-Oakland from SP
Baggage Dorm Ogden SP
6-6-4 Sleeper Ogden-Oakland from Wabash-UP-SP-originated in St Louis
6-6-4 Sleeper Ogden-Oakland from UP-SP-originated in St Lake City
Dome Lounge Ogden-Oakland from SP
Diner-Sparks-Oakland from SP
Coach-from Sparks from SP
Coach 44 seat from Ogden from Wabash-SP-UP originated in St Louis
Coach 44 seat from Ogden from Wabash-SP-UP originated in St Louis
Ch

[Anonymous]

Hi John--

In 1953 the only Budd cars that might have shown up in the City of San Fransisco or the SF Overland would have been UP Pacific-series 10-6 sleepers. Those cars might have been in two-tone gray on the Overland, but UP began painting all of its passenger equipment in Armour yellow in 1952. The Cities trains had been in Armour yellow from inception before WWII. Once in a while a substitute car would show up on the City of San Fransisco in a paint scheme other than Armour yellow, but that was the exception rather than the rule. I haven't seen any photos of the City with any heavyweight cars in the consist--until the 1960s.

A pair of Budd 44-seat coaches (nos 2362 and 2363) were painted in Armour yellow for the City of San Fransisco, but they weren't delivered until March 1954.

The SF Overland regularly carried heavyweights during the 1950s among its head-end cars, coaches and diners. Whether UP, SP or C&NW cars, they might have been Pullman green, two-tone gray or Armour yellow.

The SP didn't adopt silver (or "simulated stainless steel") and red as the general passenger equipment paint scheme until 1958. Cars for the Sunset Limited, Golden State, Sunbeam, and some other trains did get that paint scheme in 1953 (or before) and some cars from those trains did appear in the SF Overland at that time as substitute or extra cars.