Hi, I realize this is a very basic question. I can't believe that throughout my years of learning about how railroads operated, I still don't know this. I guess it partially comes from being born so far from the era Im trying to model, the fact that companies these days only produce the big and "coolest" looking engines, which happens to always be mainline engines(big boys, northerns)... and my ignorance
Anyways, in the current era, you got large GEVOs pulling mainline trains, SD40-2s loading/unloading the industries, and GP38-2/gensets doing yard switching. (or something along those lines)
And similarly, in the steam era, large engines (4-8-4s,2-10-2s) pulling mainline trains between states, 4-6-0s, 4-4-2s, 4-6-2s pulling passenger trains, and 0-6-0s,0-8-0s doing yard switching. My question is, generally(of course every railroad is different), what type of engine was used for bringing emptys to local industries and pulling the loaded cars to the yards for sorting? Any railroad can work. (just need a reference)
If you want a specific railroad, then I guess focus on Santa Fe and PRR. From what I've seen, it seems PRR's large fleet of 2-8-0s (H class) were used. But Santa fe didnt have too many 2-8-0s, it seems. Do they use their large fleet of 2-8-2s? I thought 2-8-2s were road engines, meant for hauling long distance trains.
I understand its a very vague question, if anyone needs clarification, just ask
Thanks!
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
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It's more about age than size. Whatever has been demoted from long-distance main line service and replaced by the shiny new locomotive today will be pulling locals tomorrow.
It only appears to be a size thing because the new locomotive is almost always bigger.
In the case of the N&W for example, when the Y6 entered service, Y3's were assigned to the mine runs. Both were 2-8-8-2's.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Where the "local" industry is located also plays a part.
If it is way out of town, the mainline through freight might drop off and pick up along the way. I once watched a sawmill in Georgia in a very small town get switched by a lashup of four six-axle road diesels while the long train was disconnected. I suppose that was easier than sending out a single locomotive for miles to switch out a dozen cars and come back.
I am sure Larry can give us much better insight on how the locomotives for switching industries were selected.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
With my layout set in the late '30s, the steam locomotives which pull the trains from town to town are also switching out industries, and re-spotting cars as needed. Most are Consolidations, Ten Wheelers or Moguls, but it's not unusual for Mikes or even the occasional Mountain to be on those trains, and when that's the case, they take care of those industries, too.
I do have a couple of switchers, but they're each usually located in one or another of the terminal towns, and don't often travel to the towns in between.
The railroad works with what it's got.
Wayne
The 19th century inner city industrial districts were notorious for tight curves and turnouts as the rail network threaded the streets and intersections. Those areas were pretty much limited to 0-6-0s (and 40' cars). I've seen No.4 turnouts and even a No.3 equilateral. Small towns and newer areas generally had more room and more generous curves so bigger engines could be used.
John
In Philadelphia the PRR had many piers with very tight curves to enter so A5s 0-4-0 switchers were used and later ge 44ton diesels. The 2-8-0 H class steamers were the universal engine capable of running the mains and then do the necessary switching. The Wsshington DC passenger switching was done by an 0-8-0 but they were rare. 0-6-0 B6sb switchers were confined to yard work. I have never seen a picture of one on the main.6
ndbprrIn Philadelphia the PRR had many piers with very tight curves to enter so A5s 0-4-0 switchers were used and later ge 44ton diesels.
i believe the P&R developed the B8 0-6-0 with a short wheelbase to deal with tight curves in some switching areas
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Depends on what industry and where it is, and era.
Generally a 2-8-2 or smaller would be on a local. 2-8-0's were very common on locals, as were 4-6-0's (or 2-6-0's). If you go back to the 1800's 4-4-0's were used on everything. In areas around yards, anything from an 0-4-0 to an 0-8-0 might be used.
The 4-4-0 was the "GP7" or "GP38" of the 1800's and the 2-8-0 was the same for the 1900's.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Ah, thanks all for the usefull responses! This was just what I was looking for!
Guess I was more or less correct on my guess.
By the way the Santa Fe had 2-8-0s in quantity and I think the best selling brass locomotive for Pacific Fast Mail of all time might have been their Santa Fe consolidation. Back then brass was not always limited run and the ATSF 2-8-0 was truly a "catalog item" often seen in hobby shop shelves for sale
Railroads had their reasons for assigning certain locomotives to certain duties. I do believe crew pay was at least in part a function of locomotive size/weight so there were economic reasons perhaps (including fuel costs and use) to avoid using an oversized locomotive in local duty.
Sometimes the capacity of bridges and rails was also a factor. The C&NW kept its class R-1 in local service long after it had been bumped from mainline freights for that very reason. I think the Milwaukee Road did the same with their 2-6-2s. They had plenty of larger engines but if the bridges and rail on a given line or branch could not handle the axle loading, they were out of the question.
This is where belonging to a railroad historical society and having access to all their articles with photos really helps get a "feel" for what a given railroad did, even if the article is about a certain branch or division and isn't "about" what kind of locomotive was assigned to locals.
Dave Nelson
carl425 It's more about age than size. Whatever has been demoted from long-distance main line service and replaced by the shiny new locomotive today will be pulling locals tomorrow. It only appears to be a size thing because the new locomotive is almost always bigger. In the case of the N&W for example, when the Y6 entered service, Y3's were assigned to the mine runs. Both were 2-8-8-2's.
A mine run is rather different from a local wayfreight though, with large mines producing entire trains of cars, often in tough terrain.
Even an old Y3 isn't going to wind up in local service; such a big brute is built for moving tonnage.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
It can be hard to start with today's railroading and try to extrapolate it back to the steam era. Today you have trains of piggybacks and containers going from one city to another, with trucks taking them from an intermodal yard to the various industries they're going to. Before that, individual freight cars had to be moved from the yard to the industries.
If the industries were adjacent to the yards, it would be logical for a yard switcher like an 0-8-0 to move cars back and forth. If the industries were farther out, a wayfreight with a medium-sized steam engine as mentioned in earlier posts (2-8-0, 2-8-2 etc.) on the train. In big cities, some of the cars might go to a local terminal railroad or other shortline that switched the cars to the various industries.
I've only seen one model of the PRR rubber tire switched. Couplers at both ends and a giant vertical steering wheel called a tiller. http://prr.railfan.net/photos/Sm_PRR14380_JerseyCityNJ_100355_PCarleton.jpg
In real life they were found all over the system switching city traffic. For steam locomotives depending on track condition and availability you could have seen anything from 0-4-0 through 2-10-2 on the PRR. For a railroad that had more 2-8-0 locomotives than most roads had locomotives they were spread out everywhere.
Pete
wrench567I've only seen one model of the PRR rubber tire switcher.
There were plenty more -- the picture you provided is actually a later modification of one to have lower-pressure 'off road' tires. A place to go to at least see some of the variety -- plus all the detail shots you'd probably need to make one of the Buckwalters -- is here:
http://prr.railfan.net/RubberTiredSwitchers.html
Note that these were originally meant for 'street trackage' and not to negotiate ballasted (or indifferently-ballasted) premise sidings or team tracks and the like. Some early Trackmobiles and similar vehicles (cf. the one preserved at VMT in Roanoke) had tractor-style road wheels for positioning the rail wheels on ordinary sidings. But this is all really discussion for its own thread...
Only peripherally mentioned is that many sidings had weight restrictions as well as curve restrictions for locomotives. In some cases it would be necessary to 'reach' into the siding with a number of cars, potentially quite a large number, to actually pick or place cars where desired.
There are a number of well-documented situations where 'cost-effective' road-switchers were too heavy for certain trackage or bridges and various expedients, including older steam, continued to be used.
There could be some amusing things involved with 'peddler' type freight. Tuplin's famous 'low-pressure Niagara' observations apparently came from him observing a crew running this very advanced and large locomotive to do the job of a 2-8-0... not only able to match its curve-negotiation ability via modern lateral-motion, but doing the work with the same effective fuel and water consumption of the smaller locomotive! This was probably break-in service of course, but it is interesting to consider in light of some of the earlier discussion.
A urban local could use 0-6-0s,2-6-2s, 0-8-0s, 2-8-0s,2-8-2s and 4-8-0s.
Main line could see 2-6-2s, 2-8-0s, 2-8-2s,2-8-4s, 2-6-0s, 2-6-6-2, 2-6-2s, 4-6-0s and 4-8-0s.. I seen photos of PRR 2-10-0s on locals that ran between division points.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Trainman440 Ah, thanks all for the usefull responses! This was just what I was looking for! Guess I was more or less correct on my guess. Charles
Not really
When and which railroads are the most important questions. At the end of steam on the N&W, you could find J class 4-8-4s on local freights. Even before dieselization, 4-8-2s routinely held down locals on the Peavine Div in Ohio.
On the NYC, toward the end, 4-6-4s and 4-8-4s could be found on local passenger runs, bumped from long distance runs.
On the NH and NYC 2-8-2s were used in local and mainline freight. 2-6-0s were also used on some branches on the NH.
BM used 2-6-0s and 4-6-2s on branch line and mainline commuter trains. 2-8-0s were also used on both local and mainline freights.
What wheel arrangement could be found on what trains depended on a number of factors:
Weather
Tonnage to be hauled
Grades and curvature of the line
Available motive power
The bottom line is doing some homework about the prototype you are modelling, because it will vary according to the industry, era and location. I was reading a reply in this thread about the 4-4-0s and their use in the 1800s. Well, some were used for pretty much all purposes up to 1960 in Eastern Canada. In the US, I read that old woodburning Baldwin 4-4-0s were used well into the 1900s in logging/wood mill operations, much later than in other locations. Diesels were used for switching fairly early on in many locations, but there are a few exceptional cases of steam doing switching work well in the 1970s. So it all depends...
Simon
snjroyI was reading a reply in this thread about the 4-4-0s and their use in the 1800s. Well, some were used for pretty much all purposes up to 1960 in Eastern Canada.
in the era of 4-4-0s, what other options were there?
gregcin the era of 4-4-0s, what other options were there?
And there are different types of 4-4-0; most of us can't easily discriminate by era, but there are profound detail and performance differences over the years, and comparatively rapid design obsolescence... so you might see an 1850s engine with pilot truck shoved under the cylinders relegated to secondary or peddler service while a newer Mason engine handled the 'best' traffic.
0-6-0, 0-4-0, 2-4-0, 0-6-2, 2-6-0, 2-2-2, 2-4-2,
If you make a search on You tube about N&W steam locomotives, you can find some showing Y class 2-8-8-2 steam locomotives even YB6 making switching with only one car....
And the second amazing thing is how fast they run to do switching with such monster locomotives.