Hello Milwaukee Road fans.
My question is about the passenger cars from the original 1936 Hiawatha. After the trainsets were replaced several times(1938 - 1952) what happened to the cars from the original 1936 trainset? Where they repainted in the newer paint schemes? Were they scrapped? Were they kept in their original paint scheme?
I have 2 HO coaches from Fox Valley in the 1936 original paint sheme but my layout is set in the 1949-1954 period. I model the Chippewa Hiawatha during that period and want to know if I can use the cars for that train during that period and do I need to repaint them.
I've searched the usual references but can't come up with an answer.
Thanks in advance.
Scott Sonntag
Weren't most of them scrapped for the war effort in WW2?
Keep in mind that the original train sets had the first-generation Nystrom trucks (and brakes) that were optimized for very-high-speed service well over >85mph and both rode hard and braked hard if operated in slower service. That would not augur well for their use in slower service or on less-than-perfect track.
If I remember correctly the original trainsets were moved to the Chicago-Omaha route as the Midwest Hiawatha when the bigger 1938 trains with the F7 Baltics came in.
I do not know how much of the actual construction of cars for trains like the North Woods Hi would be common to the true high-speed equipment, and don't have a copy of Scribbins to consult. But my memory is that those cars were reskinned to look modern and had much more ordinary suspension and braking.
Something I did not know is that there were apparently multiple 'generations' of "beaver tail" observations. As far as I can tell without references, the pre-1948 Chippewa train did have the older beavertail obs and this would have been older equipment. The post-48 train, rebranded as the Chippewa-Hiawatha, seems to have newer and larger cars but with the obs styled to look like the 1935 equipment. I would check this carefully, but assume in the meantime that the Fox Valley cars would NOT be representative for 1949-1954.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Lakeshore Sub Hello Milwaukee Road fans. My question is about the passenger cars from the original 1936 Hiawatha. After the trainsets were replaced several times(1938 - 1952) what happened to the cars from the original 1936 trainset? Where they repainted in the newer paint schemes? Were they scrapped? Were they kept in their original paint scheme? I have 2 HO coaches from Fox Valley in the 1936 original paint sheme but my layout is set in the 1949-1954 period. I model the Chippewa Hiawatha during that period and want to know if I can use the cars for that train during that period and do I need to repaint them. I've searched the usual references but can't come up with an answer. Thanks in advance. Scott Sonntag
The original Hiawatha was 1935, not '36. The cars represented by Fox Valley were built beginning in 1934, they had brown roofs and underframes.
There were two complete trains built in 1935, they had grey roofs and orange car bodies. After the sucess of the original Hiawatha the railroad built more cars in 1936-37 including two more beaver tails and two more Atlantic type locomotives (three and the four spot) in 1936. The Milwaukee did not build another train until 1938 introducing the ribbed side cars to the railroad.
In your time period the cars were painted in the 1938 colors with the grey roof and maroon letter boards and maroon window band. Side skirts were added to some cars in 1942 but were modified or removed with the delivery of the 1948 cars. In short ,yes you can use the cars on the Chip and be within the realm of truth.
The cars were repainted again in 1952 with the maroon letterboard gone, black roof, new trucks and modified side skirts. The last repaint was in 1955 when some cars were repainted into the UP yellow.
Many of the original cars including the beaver tails were rebuilt into baggage-express cars in the late 50s. The Earling survives in the baggage car form.
Overmod...The post-48 train, rebranded as the Chippewa-Hiawatha, seems to have newer and larger cars but with the obs styled to look like the 1935 equipment....
It's perhaps not pertinent to the O.P.'s question, but the observation cars from the 1949 lot built by Pullman-Standard, named-cars 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18, were bought by CN in 1964, and used on trains #64 & #65, the afternoon 'Rapido'.However, around 1977/78, the Canadian Transport Commission banned their use due to the fact that they had only one exit.
While the cars were sent to Montreal for scrapping, it appears that all six were sold to private owners.
I would have thought it not overly complicated to add an additional exit(s), as the bedrooms were sold as day-rooms at premium prices. Nevertheless, it's nice to know that some were saved, and are, hopefully, still in existence, as they were classy-looking cars.
Wayne
Thank you for your responses. I have not read through Scribbin's book in ages so I really need to go back through it.
Wayne, I believe that the Dell Rapids and possible Cedar Rapids Skytop lounge cars have been restored to their original form and serveral others survive in pieces.
Randy Stahl Many of the original cars including the beaver tails were rebuilt into baggage-express cars in the late 50s. The Earling survives in the baggage car form.
Dave, is there any connection with the other "Hiawatha: First of the Speedliners" (Bilty, 1985)? How do you rate the earlier book?
Thanks for the tip Dave. Gulp is right for the first book but looking at the sample page for the second book does make the price a steal.
Without doing any in depth research, I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of repainted original Hi passenger cars being used by the Milwaukee on other trains in the 1950s. I suspect as passenger traffic declined after WW2, they were among the first streamlined cars to be removed from service.
The Friends of 261 has in the past used one of the baggage cars converted from an original "beaver tail" observation cars as a head-end car for tools and such. It's not shown on their website's current roster of cars, so I'm not sure if it's still in use, or they just don't bother to put it on.
https://261.com/fleet/
Note that only a few of the 261 cars - like Cedar Rapids observation, SuperDome 53, Minnesota River - are former Milwaukee Road cars. Most were built for other lines.
They have the "same" title because that "First of the Speedliners" phrase was used on the brochure that introduced the train to the traveling public in 1935. I have the Bilty book and I see I paid $10 for it; frankly that is about what I'd be willing to pay for it now. It is a 78 page softcover book about the same size as an MR magazine. It certainly has good solid information about the building of the cars and locomotives, and good but not great photo reproduction, and some charming informal drawings and some Native American lore and Hiawatha the poem stuff. Bilty was intimately involved with the creation and design of the train and wrote up his recollections in the 1940s - that manuscript found its way into the Milwaukee County Historical Society which worked with the then version of the Milwaukee Road Historical Society and helped publish the book (the large Milwaukee Road archives are housed at the Milwaukee Public Library, not the Historical Society). So the entire idea of that book is to preserve the important recollections of someone who was there at the creation and who wanted to set the record straight about some things (in his opinion). If you are interested in the train, or just passenger train or Milwaukee Road history in general, it is a good book to have on the shelves. But it would not help much if at all with modeling per se.
The bigger red book with the similar title was created by a group of very serious railroad historians and model railroaders, calling themselves The Milwaukee Shops, and I suspect they used Bilty's work for some of the historical text but the book goes so far beyond text and anecdotes into more precise and detailed facts. And keep in mind that Bilty was trying to set things straight but perhaps was also trying to even some old scores. Bilty's book is an autobiography in a sense and thus not without challenge from experts.
Unlike Bilty, there are detailed newly-done scale drawings of every car. Detailed drawings of many of the parts in the cars. Locomotives also. There are even incredibly detailed large scale drawings of the type faces and fonts used on the cars. All supported by really good quality black and white photos. This is a book for prototype modelers who want every detail to be correct. It was meant to be the last word on the first Hiawatha and it is hard to imagine anyone doing it in greater depth. It is even hard to imagine how, say, an internet webpage about the Hiawatha could convey as much modeling information as the drawings in this book. I know some of the modelers who were involved which is why I bought the book when it was new. These are the sorts of guys who get a brass passenger car and then pull out the Dremel tool and soldering iron because this hinge is not correct, or this window is misplaced by half a foot, or this accomodation because the trucks interfere with the step is not tolerable to them.
Glad I did given what it sells for now, and I can say that I very rarely see these for sale at swap meets.
Summary - same title but the books are utterly unalike. That 1935 brochure by the way is reproduced in full in the Bilty book.
Dave Nelson