When I was a lad I lived in Jackson, Michigan, a couple hundred yards from the dual main between Detroit and Chicago. My wife is a Dutch imigrant, and journeyed with her family west to Portland, Oregon from New York City, through Chicago. It was late January, 1957. I am curious as to what were the most likely railroads that were used for the trip.
There may have been other rather direct options for the first leg to Chicago (the Pennsy comes to mind), but I'd like to imagine that they rode the New York Central. If so, there were options out of Buffalo either through Ontario to Detroit or through Cleveland. I sometimes toy with the notion that, if it was indeed the NYC, that they might just have come via Detroit - and later rolled right past my house. With limited resources I can't imagine that they were booked on the 20th Century Limited, which took the southern route. Granted, it's merely a fanciful speculation. But it's a nagging one. Regrettably, I never asked my wife's folks before they passed away. Her brother, who was 12 at the time, doesn't know the details.
Now, if the private agency that was arranging the trip had good sense, they wouldn't have booked the family on the NYC for the first major leg. That would have necessitated a shuttle between the LaSalle Street and Union Stations. If so, my dream is up in smoke!
John
C&O's George Washington,B&O's Capitol Limited and Erie's Erie Limited.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Attuvian When I was a lad I lived in Jackson, Michigan, a couple hundred yards from the dual main between Detroit and Chicago. My wife is a Dutch imigrant, and journeyed with her family west to Portland, Oregon from New York City, through Chicago. It was late January, 1957. I am curious as to what were the most likely railroads that were used for the trip. There may have been other rather direct options for the first leg to Chicago (the Pennsy comes to mind), but I'd like to imagine that they rode the New York Central. If so, there were options out of Buffalo either through Ontario to Detroit or through Cleveland. I sometimes toy with the notion that, if it was indeed the NYC, that they might just have come via Detroit - and later rolled right past my house. With limited resources I can't imagine that they were booked on the 20th Century Limited, which took the southern route. Granted, it's merely a fanciful speculation. But it's a nagging one. Regrettably, I never asked my wife's folks before they passed away. Her brother, who was 12 at the time, doesn't know the details. Now, if the private agency that was arranging the trip had good sense, they wouldn't have booked the family on the NYC for the first major leg. That would have necessitated a shuttle between the LaSalle Street and Union Stations. If so, my dream is up in smoke! John
Rich
Alton Junction
I happily 'second the motion' to cross-post this on the Classic Trains forum (if that hasn't already been done).
An important consideration here would be cost. Immigrants might be more interested in saving money than having a quick or convenient trip -- and the 'regulated' fares for 24-hour and 28-hour trains from one of the eastern ports to Chicago (agreed as a logical 'best' transfer point to Portland from New York) were lower than the 'great steel fleet' style trains. They would, on the other hand, have involved some sort of transfer out of Manhattan, which apart from B&O with its dedicated feeder-bus system might have involved more hassle and expense than the higher cost for the NYC/PRR ticket would have represented.
I'd think it very highly unlikely that a slower NYC train nominally to Chicago would be routed via the CASO (which is really the only possibility that gives you a reasonably 'through' train from NYC to Chicago via Detroit.
Where the thing gets interesting (and the Classic Trains OG nerds of greater and greater value) is that many of the "24- and 28-hour roads" from New York didn't actually go to Chicago; they connected with other railroads, in places like Buffalo, and it is at least conceivable that some of those connecting trains to Chicago may have passed through, or near, Detroit.
richhotrain John, you should re-post this thread on the Classic Trains forum where there are some very knowledgeable people on such subjects as this one. Rich
BRAKIE C&O's George Washington,B&O's Capitol Limited and Erie's Erie Limited.
Attuvian richhotrain John, you should re-post this thread on the Classic Trains forum where there are some very knowledgeable people on such subjects as this one. Rich Rich, Thanks. I had thought that the post was probably a better fit on the Trains forum. But I have never posted - or even browsed there. Is there a "quick and dirty" means of sliding over to that platform rather than having to start all over? That would be nice as I don't have a subscription to that pub (nor, at the moment, even to MRR). John
I went ahead and posted this for him as a summary in the Classic Trains forum (as "Request for 1957 information...")
If he's registered on MR, he's also cross-registered to look at the Classic Trains forum already. He can just go to
http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/281209.aspx
If he subsequently wants to make his own post over there, I'll delete this one.
Overmod I went ahead and posted this for him as a summary in the Classic Trains forum (as "Request for 1957 information...") If he's registered on MR, he's also cross-registered to look at the Classic Trains forum already. He can just go to http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/281209.aspx If he subsequently wants to make his own post over there, I'll delete this one.
Done.
John Both the NYC and PRR terminated in Union Station as did the B&O.
As a C&O fan and former brakeman I am embarrassed. The George Washington terminated in Cincinnati Union Station not Chicago Union Station.
After C&O took control of the B&O the George was combined with B&O'S National Limitied out of Cincinnati. starting in 1963 or so.
BRAKIE John Both the NYC and PRR terminated in Union Station as did the B&O. As a C&O fan and former brakeman I am embarrassed . . . .
As a C&O fan and former brakeman I am embarrassed . . . .
If I'm reading this 1957 timetable correctly (see link below), you could travel between New York City and Chicago on the following New York Central trains:
1. New York Special
2. Fifth Avenue Special
3. Wolverine
4. Advance Commodore Vanderbilt
5. Commodore Vanderbilt
6. 20th Century Limited
7. Pacemaker
8. Chicagoan
9. Empire State Express
10. North Shore Limited
Empire State Express, North Shore Limited, and Wolverine took the Canada Southern route.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/images/tt-0457.pdf
BRAKIE John Both the NYC and PRR terminated in Union Station as did the B&O.
wjstix If I'm reading this 1957 timetable correctly (see link below), you could travel between New York City and Chicago on the following New York Central trains: 1. New York Special 2. Fifth Avenue Special 3. Wolverine 4. Advance Commodore Vanderbilt 5. Commodore Vanderbilt 6. 20th Century Limited 7. Pacemaker 8. Chicagoan 9. Empire State Express 10. North Shore Limited Empire State Express, North Shore Limited, and Wolverine took the Canada Southern route. http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/images/tt-0457.pdf
Great information, Stix. Thanks for that legwork. A reminder that one gets rather out-of-shape after a while when it comes to reading timetables. Need good eyes and the savvy to be able to shift columns! And this was, I suspect, well after passenger service began to wind down across the country. Can't imagine how thick this one might have been in the '20s or '30s.
They may have taken Erie, Lackawanna, or Lehigh Valley trains from New York. The Erie offered direct service to Chicago, whereas DL&W connected with Nickel Plate in Buffalo. I think LV connected in Buffalo with Canadian National and other roads for service to the west. Sorry for the incomplete info, but those are some other options.
Yes both Erie and DL&W had trains to Chicago but their terminals were across the Hudson river in New Jersey. 1957 is a little early for international air travel so the obvious choices for people debarking from a ship would be the most convenient the PRR or NYC
Keep in mind that immigrants were likely to be on a tight travel budget pointing to the lesser expensive trains to Chicago via Jersey City or Hoboken in NJ.
Russ
Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ. Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/
AttuvianAnd this was, I suspect, well after passenger service began to wind down across the country. Can't imagine how thick this one might have been in the '20s or '30s.
With Amtrak nearing it's 40th birthday, it's easy to forget that the way Amtrak does it - one train (if any) between city A and city B each day - wasn't the way it always was.
In reality, in the past you might have had not just several railroads connecting both cities, but have each railroad running several trains between the cities. Maybe each had an overnight train with sleepers, a daytime all-coach train, and a limited stop daytime train with some first class accomodations (i.e. parlor cars)...plus other trains that went from City A thru City B to City C, D and E. One of the railroads might have a mail & express train that also carried one or two coaches for passengers.
[quote user="ndbprr"]
Yes both Erie and DL&W had trains to Chicago but their terminals were across the Hudson river in New Jersey. 1957 is a little early for international air travel so the obvious choices for people debarking from a ship would be the most convenient the PRR or NYC[On
/quote]
Entire areas of the Northeast and Upper Midwest grew and prospered because they were along the rights-of-way of the Erie, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, and others -- for example, the Wyoming Valley of Pennsylvania and the Southern Tier of New York. Also, don't forget the LV's passenger trains into and out of New York originated and terminated at Penn Station. The sun doesn't rise and set with the Central or the vastly superior (because Grampa worked for them in Wilkes-Barre and Elmira ) PRR.
Most likely it would have been the NYC if it passed through Detroit on its way to Chicago. The NYC primary route to Chicago through went on the south shore of Lake Erie out of Buffalo through Cleveland and Toledo. Their New York to Detroit trains went through Ontario on the north shore of Lake Erie. I don't have a timetable but I'm betting some of those trains would have gone on to Chicago from Detroit.
Uncle_BobEntire areas of the Northeast and Upper Midwest grew and prospered because they were along the rights-of-way of the Erie, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, and others -- for example, the Wyoming Valley of Pennsylvania and the Southern Tier of New York.
None of those railroads served the Upper Midwest. Which states are in the Upper Midwest could be a little vague, but it generally is used for North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, and (perhaps) Michigan.
John-NYBWMost likely it would have been the NYC if it passed through Detroit on its way to Chicago. The NYC primary route to Chicago through went on the south shore of Lake Erie out of Buffalo through Cleveland and Toledo. Their New York to Detroit trains went through Ontario on the north shore of Lake Erie. I don't have a timetable but I'm betting some of those trains would have gone on to Chicago from Detroit.
Based on the 1957 timetable I linked to earlier, it appears the Empire State Express, North Shore Limited, and Wolverine took the Canada Southern route (i.e. the route across Lower Ontario) from New York to Chicago.
wjstixBased on the 1957 timetable I linked to earlier, it appears the Empire State Express, North Shore Limited, and Wolverine took the Canada Southern route (i.e. the route across Lower Ontario) from New York to Chicago.
Which raises a question that I don't think has been fully asked yet, and may have a recollection 'answer': was the dropped car removed IN Detroit, or TO BE put on a connection to Detroit? Where it went after the switcher removed it might have been somewhat different -- as would how quickly passengers were taken out of the car. Were there ongoing services out of Detroit itself that a 'dropped' car from a NYC westbound off the CASO would be switched onto or into?
People and goods traveled from New York to Chicago via the Erie through northern Ohio and Indiana, and via LV and DL&W through the Buffalo gateway over Wabash (through Ontario and Michigan) and NKP (via the route paralleling the Central).