I was doing some research on how accurate Walthers Santa Fe Pullman Heavyweight diners were. (Turns out, not at all.) I decided I'll buy a Walther's heavyweight diner and just letter it "Pullman" as a stand in, until I can afford brass.
Anyways, this leads me to my question. When you search for the standard diner that Pullman offered, 2 different looking cars come up.
Standard Dining Car type 1:
Incidently, this is also what Walther's offers...
Standard Dining Car type 2:
This is what both Challenger Imports and Precison Scale Co calls Pullman "Standard" Diner.
Edit: Which one is the more popular Pullman diner offering?
Edit: I understand now that dining cars in particular were railroad specific.
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
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I used the Rivarossi diner mainly because it was affordable, being on the "used" table at a nearby hobby shop for, as I can best recall, ten bucks or less.
I added a few external details on the body shell and did a homemade "interior" of sorts. Much of the detail work was on the underbody, and I was mostly wingin' it there. Since my passenger cars are running under a freelanced road name, I'm not necessarily restricted to making them match any specific prototype, although I do like to keep things looking at least reasonably realistic.
Here's the kitchen-side of the car (click on the photos for an enlarged version)...
...and the aisle-side...
...a look at the simple interior...
The underbody details are from New England Rail Services and Precision Scale, plus some scratchbuilt stuff and even some air tanks from an Athearn Blue Box geep....
There is, however, no modelled brake gear, as I didn't leave room for it...the rivet police will likely drop-by soon.
I had another Rivarossi diner, acquired much earlier, but for an equally reasonable price. I later converted it into this combine....
...and other than shortening it and creating the baggage compartment by blanking a bunch of windows and adding the sliding doors, it's pretty-much "stock".
I can't really comment on the accuracy of models of Santa Fe cars, but I'd guess that that road had quite a few dining cars, and they were likely were not all similar, as they would have been acquired at different times and possibly from different builders, too. I'm sure that somebody must have written a book on the subject, hopefully with lots of photos and drawings. If you can find such an item, you may discover that there are other models that may be good representations of such cars.
If you need parts to add details or want to make a specific model into a more accurate representation of a particular prototype, some parts to change window arrangements can be found HERE, and Precision Scale has detail parts for passenger cars in both brass and plastic.
Other than that, it seems that New England Rail Services has disappeared - an unfortunate occurrence, in my opinion.
Wayne
Generally, Pullman stuck to the operation of sleeping car service. They offered a "club-lounge" car which primarily derved drinks and light meals most often in combination cars that had sleeping accommodations along with small buffet food service. Bedroom lounge cars or parlor cars.
For the most part the dining car service, using full or even twin-unit diners was left for the operation by the operating lines. Pullman did offer a few full diners on specific trains in agreement with the railroad that was was the primary operator of that train. These full diners pretty much disappeared by the mid-1920s. By 1930 Pullman only had a little over a dozen full diners on their roster. Some through passenger trains operated over several railroads, it may have made business sense for them to leave the dining service up to the Pullman Company.
The only accurate way to represent dining car operations on a model railroad is to do the research for which particular train you intend to model and find the cars, or at least close approximations, and detail them to be as close as possible.
Sometimes the diners were operated over shorter sections of the run and one diner may serve two trains by being dropped somewhere mid-route and picked up by the opposing train.
Pullman by Edmund, on Flickr
Anyone interested in passenger operations in the heavyweight era would be well served by finding a copy of Some Classic Trains ©1964 by Arthur Dubin or More Classic Trains by the same author. Nice copies may be found ay second hand booksellers for very reasonable costs.
Pullman_0003 by Edmund, on Flickr
For particular Santa Fe operations a copy of Santa Fe's Last Dining Car Service Instructions by David R. Peironnet will provide an in-depth look at that railroad's extensive dining car operations.
Don't confuse a "Pullman-Built" dining car (Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Co.) with one that was operated by the Pullman Company. Very few dining cars carried the Pullman name on the letterboard. My November 15, 1950 Pullman Company "Descriptive List Of Cars" does not show a single, full dining car on the roster.
Note that the photo of the Challenger Imports car was decaled by the buyer. The car was provided "unlettered". Rivarossi, Walthers, Con-Cor and others were pretty loose when it came to paint and lettering accuracy.
Regards, Ed
Thanks for all the replys!
Wayne: Love the diner! How did you add the air ducts to the roof? I cant ever seem to get that right...
doctorwayne I can't really comment on the accuracy of models of Santa Fe cars, but I'd guess that that road had quite a few dining cars, and they were likely were not all similar, as they would have been acquired at different times and possibly from different builders, too.
I can't really comment on the accuracy of models of Santa Fe cars, but I'd guess that that road had quite a few dining cars, and they were likely were not all similar, as they would have been acquired at different times and possibly from different builders, too.
My question actually had nothing to do with Santa Fe diners, but simply: what did the default Pullman Dining car look like?
Ed:
gmpullman For the most part the dining car service, using full or even twin-unit diners was left for the operation by the operating lines. In Pre-War days, Pullman did offer a few full diners on specific trains in agreement with the railroad that was was the primary operator of that train. Some through passenger trains operated over several railroads, it may have made business sense for them to leave the dining service up to the Pullman Company. Don't confuse a "Pullman-Built" dining car (Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Co.) with one that was operated by the Pullman Company. Very few dining cars carried the Pullman name on the letterboard. My November 15, 1950 Pullman Company "Descriptive List Of Cars" does not show a single, full dining car on the roster.
For the most part the dining car service, using full or even twin-unit diners was left for the operation by the operating lines. In Pre-War days, Pullman did offer a few full diners on specific trains in agreement with the railroad that was was the primary operator of that train. Some through passenger trains operated over several railroads, it may have made business sense for them to leave the dining service up to the Pullman Company.
Ah, I didn't know that. I'm not trying to be that prototypical though, I want this diner to be used so it'll look "good enough" if pulled by a ATSF, or NYC engine. Maybe I'll just end up attempting to make two custom heavyweight diners for each railroad then. ‾\_(ツ)_/‾
gmpullman Note that the photo of the Challenger Imports car was decaled by the buyer. The car was provided "unlettered".
Note that the photo of the Challenger Imports car was decaled by the buyer. The car was provided "unlettered".
Yes, but on the box, it doesn't list what the prototype railroad is, either. It just plainly says "Pullman Heavyweight Dining Car", which I wold presume would be the default car that Pullman would produce given that there was no special request?
Mel: You're right, at the end of the day, this really doesn't matter, but Im just curious, and too broke to buy all the books :)
Trainman440It just plainly says "Pullman Heavyweight Dining Car", which I wold presume would be the default car that Pullman would produce given that there was no special request?
Right.
Pullman built cars to a "Plan Number" which essentially translated to the floor plan.
A popular dining car Plan was 3952 which could be categorized as a "Standard" diner. Still, many railroads modified their diners to specific needs and these cars were rebuilt several times over the years. Dining cars were very expensive to build and rebuilding or modernizing was common in order to reduce costs.
As the traveling public prefered less expensive and less "formal" dining, some cars were rebuilt into lunch-counter cars or grill-diners where lighter fare could be ordered and eaten quickly without the added cost of finger bowls and linen table cloths.
The Walthers heavyweight diner is a perfect example of a ubiquitous Plan 7020-A "standard" diner. The Rivarossi car was the best available before that.
Trainman440but I don't have the ability nor time to superdetail them, like DoctorWayne probably could
Indeed. The good doctor can take a lessor model and turn it into a master piece. His work never fails to amaze me as his above photos shows.
I always favored the AHM Heavyweights since they looked superior to Athearn's heavyweights The older Walthers passenger car kits of the 50/60s was nice looking passenger cars as well for their time.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
As an example of what Ed was saying re dining cars lettered "PULLMAN" and operated by them being rare, the only car not lettered "PULLMAN" in New York Central's heavyweight Twentieth Century Limited was the NYC dining car. Even the combination baggage - smoker car at the head end was lettered for Pullman.
Since heavyweight passenger trains were all pretty similar, the one area a railroad could stand apart from it's competitors (and so draw more customers) was it's dining car service. Railroads put a lot of effort into making their dining car food and service the best it could be, and advertised their fine food service a lot. It was also of course an area where they could make a profit...kinda like the old argument that professional sports teams at best break even on ticket prices, and the profit is in the hot dogs and beer they sell at the game.
Right, so I guess I'll have to give detailing an AHM diner a go then!
Out of curiosity, then, was the plan 3952 more popular than the plan 7020-A?
I can't find a single prototype picture/record of the 7020-A, whereas I found multiple 3952s, on Pullman Project, online passenger car photo indexes, etc.
Trainman440I can't find a single prototype picture/record of the 7020-A,
I found a reference showing only ONE 7020 used on the Kansas City Southern:
Pullman_1964-roster by Edmund, on Flickr
Walthers is generally good with their research but I don't know what source they may have used to get that plan number and/or drawings. Sometime in the car's history, #52 was rebuilt, as quite a few heavyweight diners were, into a modernized "betterment" style.
RR_Fallen Flags
Trainman440Wayne: Love the diner! How did you add the air ducts to the roof? I cant ever seem to get that right...
Thanks, Charles. I'm not sure if the one on that diner is from New England Rail Services (they offered the ducting specifically for the Rivarossi cars, but it was useable on some other brands, too) or if it's one of my homemade ones.
The latter are made from .010" sheet styrene. The first step is to cut a small square of it to determine the size needed. Place one edge atop the eave of the car, holding that tight to the roof, then curve the remainder of it towards the edge of the clerestory's roof. Trim as necessary, or if it's too short, try with a longer piece - you want the curve of it to run smoothly from the edge of the clerestory's roof to the eave of the car. Once you have that dimension right, cut a strip of the .010" material to that width and to the desired length then cut another strip of the same length of material about 1/8" wide. Measure the inset of the clerestory's sidewall from the edge of the clerestory's roof and use solvent-type cement to join the thin strip onto the strip representing the ductwork, leaving one edge overhanging the same amount as the measured inset. As mentioned below, it may be preferable to cut the prepared ductwork into shorter segments, which will make it easier to install. Next, cement the bottom edge of the duct material to the lower edge of the car's roof - this is best-done with the roof removed from the car, to avoid getting the solvent on the car's side. Let the joints harden, overnight if necessary.Once the joint is cured, gently bend each segment of duct towards the clerestory, and snap the protruding portion of the narrow added-on strip of styrene under the eave of the clerestory. This is intended to hold it in place. Use a suitably-sized brush to apply solvent-type cement to that joint, making it permanent. I don't have measurements or a formula for making the ends of the ducts, but simply figure it out by trial and error. The ones at the end of the car are harder to make, due to the compound curves, than those which terminate mid-car, so it may be preferable to start the ductwork somewhat inset from the car's end. The NERS ductwork came with extra ends, in a couple of styles, which made making one's own ductwork easier, as you could use the ready-made ends. While I have several of Rivarossi's coaches, most of them have been, or will be, converted to wooden baggage cars. I modified a number of Rivarossi 12-1 Pullmans into coaches for my freelance railroad, using PikeStuff seat strips, cutting them into individual seats in order to match the window spacing. I added ducts, mostly homemade, for air conditioning, but split their length, with half of it on one side of the car and the other half on the other side, as shown on coach Onondaga... ...and while looking at those photos, it reminded me that some of the ductwork was not done as full-length strips, but rather as a bunch of shorter segments, each one installed separately, as they were much easier to curve and snap into place than the longer one-piece ducts mentioned above. Wayne