I have a small town on one side of the room, a small yard on the other side.
In my world, the ''big RR'' would drop off cars for the town, [ 6 to 10 cars ] my short line crew would then take them to town and deliver as needed.
1, Would the cut ofcars dropped off, be in any order, or just random. Lets say there were two or more cars for the same customer, would thouse cars be together?
2, Would the local crew, arange the cars in any order before going to town ? or would they just grab the cut and deal with it when they get there?
thanks
I don't know what era you are modelling, but, in general, from experience in the 1960s to the 1980s, the "big RR" would be interchanging the cars to the shortline so the cars would not be in any particular order. Once the cars were delivered to the shortline it would be up to the shortline (most likely the conductor) as to where and how to arrange the cars. The shortline crew should know the easiest way to set up the work.
Hopefully Larry (Brakie) will chime in here, but I'd think that the cars would likely be in random order - the "big RR" probably wouldn't have time to block them appropriately for delivery, or may not even know what the preferred order might be.
The local's crew might re-arrange the order of the cars if it were advantageous, but they would also know if there's no advantage in doing so.
Perhaps if you ran an operating session where the cars arrived in town in no particular order, then tried to distribute them appropriately, you'd discover if it worked or if re-arranging them was worthwhile.There's a photo thread HERE which mentions a similar situation, but I should note that the issue is not resolved.
All of the towns on my layout (DC operations, so only one train moving at any time) have a passing track as part of the line through town, so run-around moves for trailing-point spots are easily accomplished. Most of the trains "work" several industries in a town, then move on to the next town for more of the same. While having cars blocked appropriately might be handy (and could be done in "staging") it's not really necessary, at least on my layout.
Wayne
Uncle Butch, the cars delivered by the big RR would be in the order they were received in by the Big RR crew. If the two or more cars for a single consignee were from the same shipper, they may arrive in a group, all coupled together. If they come from different shippers, they could be anywhere in the cars received by the Big RR, and the Big RR crews don't know your track layout or spots at your industries and most importantly Big RR does not pay its crews to switch or pre block cars for your RR. Your folks know your railroad and, would a better job of setting up their consist.
Your folks would probably have to dig out any cars going to industries in Town before heading off to switch your industrial area. The Town cars, if any, may be switched by another crew or by the original crew before they go to switch the industrial area or, switch them when they get back. The number of cars and the distance between the two points will determine how they would be handled.
Where the crew decides to shuffle their cars into the best order for delivery and pickup, depends on the physical layouts (track layout, curvature, gradients, etc) of the end points of the line.
UNCLEBUTCH 1, Would the cut ofcars dropped off, be in any order, or just random. Lets say there were two or more cars for the same customer, would thouse cars be together?
Random, whatever order they were switched into the classification track in the "big RR" yard. The big RR is under no obligation to block cars.
Plus cars are generally blocked by station not industry. Since all the cars are going to one station (what you are calling a "town"), even if its all one railroad, they wouldn't block the cars by industry when set out for the local.
UNCLEBUTCH2, Would the local crew, arange the cars in any order before going to town ? or would they just grab the cut and deal with it when they get there?
Dealer's choice. Whatever's easiest for them. Depends on how much room they have at either place.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
To answer your question based on my short line visits. Here is my observations.
The cars would be switched into industry order before the crew left their yard. This places the needed cars in working order and makes the job easier.
Recall the same procedures that the big boys use would be followed, air hoses coupled,hand brakes set and release during industry switching since short lines follow General Code Of Operating Rules(GCOR).
You may want to glance through the GCOR in order to gain a general idea:
http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/rules/title.html
As a side note I found the majority of the short lines I visited was a frendily lot and wallowed me to roam the property once I signed the needed release forms. In return I stayed well out of the crew's way as they went about their work.
On the other hand at some short lines I visited I was told I could take all the photos I wanted from public land and to stay off the property or face trespass charges.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thanks guys; for reaffirming my thinking and reasoning.
appreciate it.
Yip, the BI&G RR would sort them according to the yard or railroad that they would be delivered to.
The yard master if there was one, or the conductor if there was not a yard master, would block the train the way they wanted.
They would not block by tow, but by the siding that they were to go to.
Here in Richardton, there are three sideings to be worked, but actually two of them are industries.
Red trail energy receves loaded grain (corn) cars, and empty tank cars, they ship empty hopper cars and loaded ethanol cars. Empties in or out could be handled by the local. Corn coming is would likey be on the local, since they do not come in so many at a time, but are frequently held here until BNSF wants to pull them out. BNSF has to pay the drayage on them no matter where they are left.
Ethanol going out would be a full unit train, so the car knocker from Dickinson would come down and inspect the train before the locomotive and the road crew arrives.
The Halliburton sand plant receivers covered hoppers of frack sand usually behind CP power since it originates on the old Soo line in Wiskonsin. BNSF will usuzlly pull the empties away before the next full train arrives. The CP power will have to go to Dickinson to fetch them.
Finally, there is the team track which could receive and dispatch cars on the local.
And so drayage is another factor that must be kept in mind.
SOMEBODY owns those railroad cars and they want to be paid for them no matter what. Drayage is the fee a railroad must pay to another railroad or other car owner for all the time that a car is on their tracks.
If BNSF dropos of a load of say salamander eggs at the team track, they will charge the consignee for each day the cars sits there being unloaded. They do not want to swallow extra charges just because you have not loaded or unloaded the consignment.
So even the shippers, the industries, or the local station master on behalf of the consignee wants to expidite the visit of each rail car. Empty cars will not be left out in the middle of nowhere.
So explain the hundreds of empty tank cars on the Red Trail property, just sitting there day by day.
Well, Red Trail Energy has humoungus storage space, and the cars are ownd by a cooperative of ethanol plants, so in effect, they are the owner of the cars, but they do charge the cooperative a fee for storing their cars.
The DVRW railway does the same sort of thing, they have miles of track not in service, and so they will for a fee, be happy to hold your cars until you need them again.
So it could be that you little railroad might store such cars for a fee for the owner of said cars.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I would assume two cars that were picked up at company A by the big railroad and were going to company B on the shortline would tend to be together the whole way. Two flatcars loaded with lumber from a sawmill located on the big railroad and going to a lumber yard on the shortline for example. Can't see any reason why you'd split them up in that situation, so I'd think they'd be together the whole way.
BroadwayLionAnd so drayage is another factor that must be kept in mind. SOMEBODY owns those railroad cars and they want to be paid for them no matter what. Drayage is the fee a railroad must pay to another railroad or other car owner for all the time that a car is on their tracks.
"Drayage" has nothing to do with rail cars. Drayage is when a trailer is moved from a ramp to another location or customer (or vice versa).
Lion is confusing car hire with drayage. Car hire is a charge that is some combination of time or mileage that is paid to the owner of the car for its use. Railroad cars tend to be mostly time (an hourly rate) and private cars tend to be primarily mileage. Back in the steam era car hire was called "per diem" because it was a daily rate, in more modern times it became an hourly rate. Back in the steam era, per diem was a big deal because it was charged based on where the car was at midnight, so railroads tried to get rid of as many cars before midnight as possible. Once it became hourly, there wasn't that big of push. In addition as the national fleet includes more private cars now, car hire isn't as big a deal since the rate is more driven by mileage.
Car hire rates are highly dependent on era. 30 years or so ago, car hire rates were a few cents a mile and a dollar or two a day.
BroadwayLionIf BNSF dropos of a load of say salamander eggs at the team track, they will charge the consignee for each day the cars sits there being unloaded. They do not want to swallow extra charges just because you have not loaded or unloaded the consignment.
That's something completely different again. That's "demurrage' which is a completely different charge. Demurrage times and charges varies depending on era. Generally a shipper has 24 hours to load and a consignee has 48 hours to unload a car. Demurrage doesn't apply to private cars spotted on private track.
There are also other rules, if a load can't be spotted because of the customer, the car can be "constructively placed" and the demurrage clock starts (even though the car is off spot). If the railroad "bunches" cars (industry asks for two cars a day and railroad spots 4 cars one day or no cars one day and 4 the next) then they might not be charged demurrage. Lots of exceptions and modifications.
Demurrage charges, also dependent on era, run somewhere in the $50-$75 a day.
Drayage is a charge for TOFC vans moved over the road, its paid by whoever ordered the movement (could be a shipper, a consignee or a railroad).
Car hire or per diem is a charge the railroads pay each other or the car owners for the use of the car. The shipper and consignee have nothing to do with car hire.
Demurrage is a charge the railroad assesses the shipper or consignee to get them to expedite the loading an uloading of the cars. It applies to cars on railroad tracks or railroad cars on private tracks. It doesn't apply to private cars and private tracks. Other railroads and the car owners have nothing to do with demurrage.
BroadwayLionWell, Red Trail Energy has humoungus storage space, and the cars are ownd by a cooperative of ethanol plants, so in effect, they are the owner of the cars, but they do charge the cooperative a fee for storing their cars.
Private cars stored on leased tracks (considered private track) are not subject to car hire or demurrage, typically the charge is per foot of track for the lease. There is typically no charge by car, other than the railroad might charge a switching fee to put the car in the track and switch the car out again.
One other thing that modelers are really fond of doing is moving cars arouns, spotting one car, pulling it and moving it from spot 1 to spot 3 or pulling a car, setting it over then spotting a different car then moving the first car back to finish loading etc. If a railroad does that switching, everytime they move the car, they could charge the industry $50-$75 a car to make the move (the first spot is free).
When the MP implemented its computer system that let them track cars by track and spot, they were able to capture all those switching charges and paid for the computer system just with the additional billling for switch charges and demurrage.
wjstixCan't see any reason why you'd split them up in that situation, so I'd think they'd be together the whole way.
You'd be surprised - cars get split up a lot. I always thought it was because a train got broken up in a yard along the way (block couldn't fit on one track) and got reassembled in a different order. Or a block got rearragned to bury a hazmat or the like.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
While they could remain together the whole way, there are lots of reasons they could get split:
My operating plan is similar to the OP's.
What I know from reading various sources is that the Big RR would simply block the cut of cars destined for the shortline at its yard, in no particular order, then drop them off at interchange. Never thought about it, but I assume they would simply keep cars that are coupled together from the shipper in tact since it would be the easiest move.
My short line has a small yard by which the loco will sort the cars before heading off to the town. I suppose it could simply skip that move and pull them to the town and then switch them appropriately at that time, depending upon how they came previously arranged.
I wonder how it is handled if the independent short line was, instead, a branch line of the Big RR. Would Big RR switch the cars to be in order for its own branch line, or would the operation be the same as if it was an independent short line?
- Douglas
Doughless I wonder how it is handled if the independent short line was, instead, a branch line of the Big RR. Would Big RR switch the cars to be in order for its own branch line, or would the operation be the same as if it was an independent short line?
The big railroad would most likely build a block for the yard at the junction point in no particular order. The yard there would switch cars into station order for points on the branch.
The UP builds a couple of manifests going to the Chicago area daily. There are intermediate yards at Boone, Marshalltown, Beverly (Cedar Rapids), and Clinton IA. These yards handle cars going to industries at these locations and for connections to other trains going to points off this route and locals originating at these locations. For example, the Boone block will have cars for multiple stations that will continue on locals. North Platte doesn't build the block in individual station order for those locals. They lump them all together and let Boone yard further switch them into their proper order. Boone also builds a train going to a yard in Eagle Grove IA that handles locals for the northwest Iowa grain lines. Boone yard lumps them all together and the Eagle Grove yard sorts them for those locals.
Cars that travel in small groups between shipper and receiver, like ethanol tank cars going between producer and smaller eceivers that don't take a whole train at a time, may tend to stay together. Others coming from all points get aggregated and sent towards their ultimate destination. Their order being refined the closer it gets to that final destination.
Jeff
Most of the switch crews I worked with did their detail switching for industry when they go to the industry. No sense in having to switch the same cars twice. If the crew lines up the cars for Acme Industries : 1-2-3-4 but Acme asks for them to be spotted 2-3-4-1, then they will have to reswitch all the cars.
Plus doing a lot of detail switching in the yard takes time, switch engine time and yard lead time. If the local is originating out of a major yard, there will be less detail switching because the yardmaster won't want the local crew tying up the lead to reblock his 20 car train when the yardmaster has to process 2400 cars a day through the yard. The yard master will let the switch engine get the cars out of his yard to some intermediate point and figure it out there where the local isn't in the way.
dehusmanPlus doing a lot of detail switching in the yard takes time, switch engine time and yard lead time. If the local is originating out of a major yard, there will be less detail switching because the yardmaster won't want the local crew tying up the lead to reblock his 20 car train when the yardmaster has to process 2400 cars a day through the yard. The yard master will let the switch engine get the cars out of his yard to some intermediate point and figure it out there where the local isn't in the way.
I don't know about today but,both PRR and Chessie(C&O) had a smaller local traffic yard where locals was build in station order. If it wasn't every conductor I worked with would put his train in industry order since there's a lot of work involved with each setout and pickup with safety and operating rules to be followed.
As a example every pickup had to be coupled,handbrake released, bleeder valve checked and wheels checked for any forgotten wheel chocks.
Safety rules applied like unlocking the industry switch,checking the points and if he rules stated you relocked the switch or at least replaced the lock in the locking device. Other safety action was to set at least two-three handbrakes on your standing train closed the air valve then uncouple your car(s) to be setout..
As far as short lines they to will put their train in industry order unless their train is shorter then five cars although I seen one short line crew put their three car train in order.
Cherry picking your setout(s) from your train at the industry would require unneeded work and extra moves. No conductor would stand for that.
BRAKIECherry picking your setout(s) from your train at the industry would require unneeded work and extra moves. No conductor would stand for that.
It sometimes happens. Train isn't always set up great, or crews are short. YOu can mess with it at the yard, or there's times you have to take it out as is and figure it out later.
Conductor is getting paid; he can cry about it later.
zugmannConductor is getting paid; he can cry about it later.
Those old line conductors I worked with was set in their ways and they would do what they thought was proper to get the work done. Those old buzzards wouldn't cry since they got paid for doing their job and as foreman they would get that job done..
The old head conductors that was now yardmasters and trainmaster knew those conductors was in the right.
Back then there wasn't any college kids with no boots on the ground experience running the show. It was hard back then for experienced young brakeman to please some old those old line muleheaded conductors...
Like an old-school trainmaster once said to me "If you guys ain't complaining(sic), you must be sick!"
The old heads could whine with the best of 'em!
zugmannThe old heads could whine with the best of 'em!
The ones I worked whined about muleheaded yardmasters, trainmasters and usless dispatchers..
I was going to post another train blocking question to a new topic but realized that this thread was pretty close. Please pardon me for hijacking a month-old thread.
How is the thru-train blocked in this scenario? Are the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose? I've yet to hear/read anyone specificy that.
I'm modeling a junction yard on a Southern Pacific mainline in the 1940's and I'm sketching out my yard operating scheme. Based on the tonnage I want my manifest trains to have, I'm wondering what they will look like in my junction yard when making their stops.
Thanks, and happy rails to you...
Through freights would (normally, one can probably always find exceptions) be blocked in station order, too. A through freight that had a block for an intermediate yard would have it behind the engine. Upon arrival at the yard, they would make the set out. Then the engine would go over to the track the pick up was on, placing it behind the engine.
On some railroads if a set out required holding onto cars that were going through, the working agreements called for an arbitrary payment (like an extra hour's pay, etc.) to be paid to the crew. That doesn't mean that it wasn't done. Just something that a railroad might try to avoid.
The same procedure still holds true today. Although with some of the larger manifests today, rear end pick ups and set outs are being done. Of course it's easier to move an EOT device than a caboose.
Espee Oregon BranchesHow is the thru-train blocked in this scenario? Are the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose? I've yet to hear/read anyone specificy that
I don't know if it's prototypical, but that is exactly what I do on my layout. Had some actual pro railroaders up for an Ops session and they never said a word.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
Espee Oregon BranchesI'm modeling a junction yard on a Southern Pacific mainline in the 1940's and I'm sketching out my yard operating scheme. Based on the tonnage I want my manifest trains to have, I'm wondering what they will look like in my junction yard when making their stops.
It depends somewhat on what the rest of the manifest train looks like. What other blocks are on the train?
Generally the blocks will be in order on a train in the order they will be set out. Pick ups will generally be in block. The place a block sets out may not have anything to do with where the cars themselves actually go.
However things may be different if at train sets out and picks up multiple blocks.The following train, No 101, runs from East to West:Eng-AAA-BBB-CCC-DDD-Cab
The following train, No 203, runs from South to North:Eng-bbb-aaa-ddd-ccc-Cab
Both lines cross at Junction. At Junction No 101 sets out BBB-CCC and picks up aaa-ddd, leaving Junction:Eng-AAA-aaa-ddd-DDD-Cab
At Junction No 203 sets out aaa-ddd and picks up BBB-CCC, leaving Junction:Eng-bbb-BBB-CCC-ccc-Cab
By making a set out and pick up in the middle of the train, a railroad can have 2 blocks fall into place with one move. In your specific case this really doesn't matter, except on the pick up. What matters there is what is the rest of the train blocked like. In most cases what is being picked up is a generic block of everything off the branch, maybe everything going in the same direction as the train (maybe not), that is carried to the next major yard to be switched. So depend on where that switch block is located in the train will determine where the manifest train pickes it up.
If its a train that does a lot of work over its run, maybe it sets out and picks up at 4 locations. Maybe it only sets out and picks up (on line) at your junction. If it sets out and picks up at 4 locations then chances are it will set out off the head end and pick up on the rear (most likely location for the block for the next big switch yard). On the other hand if it just sets out and picks up at your junction, then it will probably set out and pick up on the head end because the rest of the train will go to the next switch yard.
Espee Oregon BranchesAre the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose?
The conductors I worked with would place those pickups behind the engine instead of pulling (say) 90-100 cars just to pace the setouts in front of the caboose.The first setout would be behind the engines.
But,wouldn't your train become unworkable as you drop and pickup cars?
Absolutely! But,you can rearrange your train at a yard in a small city where you have room to work and having that room means less moves.
Remember there is no profit in moving cars you don't need to. You would set the previous pickups on one track pull your train ahead to the last cars to be setout and place those cars you already picked up in front of your through cars and your train is workable again.
A long road local would do the same.
As a old line PRR conductor told me when I was a student brakeman:Son, plan your work and work your plan,don't move cars you don't need to and above all never get your cabin in front of your face.
Getting your cabin in front of your face means don't make stupid moves..
A railroad would design the operating plan that has to be executed on a regular basis so that a train wouldn't have to reswitch its train at an ad hoc location to fix a regular pick up. It would create a plan where once the train picks up it doesn't have to double handle the cars.
Work done by a through freight is work being done on a schedule, typically off the main track. Its generally not helpful to have a through freight blocking the main reswitching and eating up time on the schedule.
In a previous life, every morning I had to explain through freight train delays to the district general manager and having to stop and reswitch a pick up was not an acceptable reason to delay a through freight.
dehusmanWork done by a through freight is work being done on a schedule, typically off the main track. Its generally not helpful to have a through freight blocking the main reswitching and eating up time on the schedule.
That's why we used a yard to reblock our train.. We was clear of the main and had lots of room to do our work.
What is this freight schedule you speak of? When you have enough switching to do there is no schedule. In fact you will spend a lot of time in a siding waiting on clearance before you can do the required switching.
And never forget the number of safety and operation rules that must be followed and that will require extra time during those switching moves..
BRAKIEWhat is this freight schedule you speak of?
Its not a new concept.
Real railroads have schedules for through freights (technically for every train, but that's a different story). They say when the train is supposed to start, when its arrives and leaves intermediate points, what cars it carries, what connections it makes and may have other pertinent information.
As an example, here is an excerpt from a 1912 Philadelphia & Reading Railroad freight train schedule manual. The concept is over 100 years old. All railroads had them.
There are two trains shown. The "symbol" PN3 is what the railroad calls the train as far as the work to be done. This schedule is not the same as a timetable schedule, it conveys no authority to operate on the main track. It just tells everybody (primarily yardmasters and managers) what the train is supposed to do. The PN3 and PV1 both originate in Philadelphia (P) but one is out of Pt Richmond and the other Broad St. It includes the train size. The "character" is a general description. Then there is a schedule of when it is supposed to arrive and leave and what trains (if any) its is supposed to connect with.
The PV1 train is doing EXACTLY what the OP is asking about. Note in the character the train is traveling from Broad St. to Pottsville and setting out blocks of cars for several branches. I model the W&N branch. Note the train is setting out at Birdsboro and in Note 2 it saying that its carrying cars from the WNRR (my branch) that go to points north. That is EXACTLY the type of operation the question was about. Note also the train is allowed 10-20 minutes at each station to do set outs and pick ups. The railroad is not intending for trains to spend hours switching and reswitching its trains. The schedule allows about 3 hours to go about 60 miles, so the average train speed is about 20 mph, which is about a normal average train speed (not to be confused with max train speed, average includes stops for meets, speed restrictions, work on line, etc).
You can find these types of schedules on many railroad historical society sites and some have been reprinted. When I worked for a real railroad we had the same thing for our trains (only on steriods and computerized).
Dave,That was in 1912 and ETT time was needed for meets...
Today's terminal dwell time can be up to 40 hours and all freight trains are ran as extras. Switching cars on the main is normal every day railroading. That's how you serve industries along the main line.
What I replied was based on my 6 years with Chessie(C&O).
1912 was the earliest freight schedule book I 've seen, but they are still in use by railroads today, although computerized and not a paper volume. The modern schedules have all the same things the 1912 does plus many more details (block names, cut off times, power requirements, schedule details like fueling and crew change points, etc.) Often times a modern schedule is called a "transportation plan" or "t-plan".
Being a regular train or an extra from an ETT perspective really has nothing to do with it. Most through freights do NOT switch industries, labor agreements assign industry work to local crews and are paid a different pay rate.
My comments are based on 37 years with the MP and UP, working with former WP, MKT, CNW, SP, SSW areas and coordinating operations with the BN/ATSF/BNSF, IC/ICG/CN, CSXT, NS and other roads. All railroads had these schedules, the modern ones with the more sophisticated computer systems had the more sophisticated t-plans. The SP and BNSF t-plans were more involved than the MKT t-plans.