Hopper vs. Other Freight Car Question

[dixieflyer]

I'm attempting to model the L&N and NC&StL here in western Kentucky in the 1940's, especially around the Western Kentucky Coalfield, the Pennyrile, and the Jackson Purchase areas. In modeling the Western Kentucky Coalfield that's going to mean coal drags.
Scribes & Sages, here's my question:
- Why is it when you see coal drags, especially in the 30's - 50's, all of the hoppers are of the owning road? (in my case the L&N)  Other industries that take boxcars might see cars from the owning roads, but also nearby connecting roads, and others from far afield.
Why is that?  I know there's a logical explanation, but I'm not sure where to go to find it.

Thanks

Warren

[BigDaddy]

I am not a railroad expert, but assuming what you say is true: 

• The mines are fixed in location relative to a particular railroad.
• The customers, be they power plants, export, steel mills, or the "local" purveyor of coal for heating and cooking back in the day were also constant. 

The circuit of mine to user is unchanging.  A power plant in Texas isn't getting coal from Wyoming one month and Pennsylvania another.  Whereas a boxcar can hold lots of things that might be needed in many different places.  If you need a boxcar, and you don't have any of your own road, but you have one available, use it. 

Coal hoppers carry coal.  They have to go back to the mine.  The nearest mine or the near mines are somewhere on the home railroad.

[dixieflyer]

Thanks Henry, I didn't think of it in that way, in that direction. That might very well be the answer.

Warren

[NittanyLion]

The actual development of the mine or the ultimate destination of the coal itself may also be in the railroad's hands.  For instance, the N&W was largely built to exploit coal fields that its own management knew existed and constructed the export port for that very coal.  They weren't letting anyone else get a slice of that cash.

[BRAKIE]

Don't forget even back in the 40/50s railroads would exchange coal drags bound to steel mills,coke plants,lake ports and of course tide coal.

PRR's PenNor yard in Columbus handed N&W coal trains bound to the lake port at Sandusky and steel mills at Gary..

PenNor became a N&W yard after N&W bought the Sandusky line.

[wjstix]

When a railroad uses another railroad's freight car, it has to pay the other railroad for the use of the car - essentially a daily rental fee - called a per diem. If a railroad has freight going from an online customer to another online customer, using their own freight cars eliminates that cost.

If a customer receives or ships a lot of freight, it might be to their advantage to own or lease cars for their exclusive use, to be sure they have control of the cars and aren't caught short. Sometimes the company would set up an agreement with a railroad to ensure availability of cars. For example, some 'baby hi-cube' boxcars would show stenciling asking that when empty they be returned to a certain city or yard on the owing railroad, so that the car could be routed back to a particular appliance company that used the cars for shipping refrigerators, ovens and the like.

[BRAKIE]

wjstix

For example, some 'baby hi-cube' boxcars would show stenciling asking that when empty they be returned to a certain city or yard on the owing railroad, so that the car could be routed back to a particular appliance company that used the cars for shipping refrigerators, ovens and the like.

Or simply state when empty return to Whirlpool Pool Marion,Ohio or  perhaps the Whirlpool pool at Clyde, Ohio..

[dehusman]

wjstix

If a customer receives or ships a lot of freight, it might be to their advantage to own or lease cars for their exclusive use, to be sure they have control of the cars and aren't caught short. Sometimes the company would set up an agreement with a railroad to ensure availability of cars. For example, some 'baby hi-cube' boxcars would show stenciling asking that when empty they be returned to a certain city or yard on the owing railroad, so that the car could be routed back to a particular appliance company that used the cars for shipping refrigerators, ovens and the like.

There are general service cars which are not in "pools" and there are "specially equipped" cars that have special equipment (covered hoppers, tank cars, insulation, refridgeration, load restraining devices, auto loading racks, racks for auto parts, etc.) that can be assigned to pools.  A plain hopper car would not be stencilled "when empty return to...."  A covered hopper could be.

Many cars require a very specific lining or equipment, such as tank cars, those cars are typically private owner cars.  The railroad doesn't want to buy cars that can only serve one tiny segment of the loadings, so the shipper has to buy (or lease them from a private company).

Car hire, the generic name, was per diem, per day, originally and at some point changed to an hourly rate.  Its a few cents an hour for a plain old boxcar.  Specially equipped cars and private cars will be on a mileage basis or a combination of mileage and hourly (daily) rate.

There are also some AAR car service directives that tell railroads what to do with cars, for example the N&W had a directive that all N&W hoppers had to be returned home empty and coupld not be reloaded by another carrier.

The railroad can also protect its fleet by which car orders it fills with what cars.  If you want to maximize your revenue you keep your home cars turning on short trips on your home road.  That means quicker turnaround.  If you send your home cars on a shipment that goes off line, your car won't be generating revenue again for days or weeks.  Yes the car will be generating a dollar a day or so in car hire, but that pales in comparision to $100 revenue a load.

[dehusman]

BigDaddy

A power plant in Texas isn't getting coal from Wyoming one month and Pennsylvania another.

Not necessarily.  We had plants in Texas that mixed Wyoming, and Colorado coal, there were other plants that mixed Wyoming and Illinois coal, Georgia power mixed Wyoming coal and eastern coal.

Power plants and other large coal users don't necessaily use coal at the same rate year round.  They burn more coal in the summer than the winter.  A power plant will have a contract to buy so much coal a month.  The mine will ship them coal until that amount is reached, as long as the plant has reserves and the deliveries are current.  If the plant has its normal coal reserves, and the deliveries are up to date, if the plant is tro recieve 4 trains per month and they deliver 4 trains in the first 20 days, they might not get another train for 1-2 weeks.

One other difference between hoppers and boxcars is that the commodity shipped in hoppers is commonly ordered in huge quantities, hundreds of thousands of tons, while boxcars commodities (other than grain) are normally ordered in smaller size shipments, 20 to a couple hundred tons.  Big moves of the same commodity means less switching and the more cars tend to stay together.  

[dixieflyer]

 "There are also some AAR car service directives that tell railroads what to do with cars, for example the N&W had a directive that all N&W hoppers had to be returned home empty and coupld not be reloaded by another carrier."

And that right there probably explains a lot about why I would only see L&N hoppers here in the Western Coalfield despite the IC and GM&O being next door.

Thanks for all of your help and explanations everyone, I knew there was a logic in it, but I couldn't see the forest for the trees. 

 

Warren

 

 

 

[BRAKIE]

dixieflyer

And that right there probably explains a lot about why I would only see L&N hoppers here in the Western Coalfield despite the IC and GM&O being next door.

Correct,but those loaded coal trains may be found behind B&O,C&O,PRR or NYC motive power being line hauled to a mill or lake port.

No railroad is a island and needs those interchange partner's  help in order to serve their customers--including coal mines that  sold coal to power plants or other industries that relied on coal that was located off line..

A fun fact.

A lot of steel mills own mines in the Appalachian coal fields and depended on (say) the L&N and the (say) the B&O to get that coal to their mills in a timely manner..

[NittanyLion]

Unless you are the Cumberland Mine Railroad or the Black Mesa and Lake Powell. Then you are on an island.