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What do do when no reversing loop, wye, turntable is available

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What do do when no reversing loop, wye, turntable is available
Posted by NWP SWP on Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:17 AM

Ok I now own two large steam locomotives (PRR T1, ATSF Northern) now the Midsouth MRR Club operates many "turn" trains, for example the Marshall-Coldwater Turn, is a loads/empties coal unit train that operates from the Marshall Interchange at Shreveport to the Reddy Kilowatt Plant at Coldwater.

I often run my T1 as a NS revenue run between excursions of the T1 pulling the coal trains, when I reach Coldwater I must run around my train and run tender leading all the way back to Shreveport, what would the prototype practice for this be? Would I run caboose leading? And the T1 shoving the train? Or both caboose and T1 on front with the caboose leading? Or two cabeese? What to do?

Steven

Crooner, Imagineer, High School Graduate, living with Aspergers, President of the Republica Pacifica micronation,  President of the NWP-SWP System.

Hook'em Longhorns! 

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:48 AM

Normally the engine would be at the head of train coming back, running tender first with the cars attached to the pilot coupler, and with the caboose at the other end. I have seen situations where a real railroad used a caboose at each end of a long train.

I suspect the layout you're running it on is set in a relatively modern era? Unit trains didn't really get going until steam was retired. I suspect if the situation you describe had been built during steam days, a turntable or some other turning method would have been put in by the railroad. With diesels, you can just run two engines back to back, so you don't need to turn them around for the return trip in that type of situation. The engineer just goes to the other unit and runs the train from there.

Although there are certainly examples of steam engines running tender first on a line (and no doubt several people will cite examples of the same), railroads really preferred steam engines to run going forwards whenever possible. One of the reason railroads bought 1st generation diesels like the GP-7, RS-1, and BL-2 (BL meaning "branch line") was because the diesels were better suited to running in either direction, and this allowed the railroads to eliminate turntables (or other turning methods) at the end of dead-end lines.

Stix
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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, October 11, 2018 12:58 PM

Simple the head brakeman rode the tender deck (on some Eastern roads this was called riding the high wind) looking out for any signs of trouble and that was in all weather.

A lot of engineers on these runs made home made back rest and would sit sideways while leaning out the window just enough to see along the side of the tender which had the same view as looking along the boiler when going forward.

Larry

SSRy

Conductor

“Shut one’s eyes tight or open one’s arms wide, either way, one’s a fool.” Flemeth-the witch of the Wilds.
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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:37 PM

NWP SWP
I often run my T1 as a NS revenue run between excursions of the T1 pulling the coal trains, when I reach Coldwater I must run around my train and run tender leading all the way back to Shreveport, what would the prototype practice for this be? Would I run caboose leading? And the T1 shoving the train? Or both caboose and T1 on front with the caboose leading? Or two cabeese? What to do?

Simple answer : don't put that engine on that train (a PRR T-1 would be a horrible engine for a coal train), back the engine to the first place you can turn it, or leave the train and take the engine someplace to turn it, then bring it back.

If it was a train on a branch someplace they would just run the train backwards.  However steam engines tended to have very severe speed restrictions running backwards.  An engine might be rated for 50-80 mph forward and only 15-30 mph backwards.  If its out on the main track with higher speed traffic, then they might only run it backwards until they can turn it.

You probably aren't going to have a caboose on both ends of a coal train on the main track, from a train makeup standpoint its a very bad plan, having essentially an empty ahead of a loaded coal train.  The slack runs in and will pop that caboose right off the tracks.

(And before everybody piles on with the "he can run what he wants" comments, he asked what the PROTOTYPE would do.)

Dave H. Painted side goes up.

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Posted by gregc on Thursday, October 11, 2018 3:49 PM

did you see Jim Hertzog's responses in the Reading RR Shamokin Division thread?

 

 

 

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by NWP SWP on Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:46 PM

No I will be checking it.

I did indeed ask what the prototype would do.

Steven

Crooner, Imagineer, High School Graduate, living with Aspergers, President of the Republica Pacifica micronation,  President of the NWP-SWP System.

Hook'em Longhorns! 

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Friday, October 12, 2018 12:37 AM

 

FYI.
 
CPR put a pilot on the tender of this locomotive anticipating it would run tender leading at least some of the time.
 
 
The tender has TWO 2 headlights.
 
A large Road-type on it's stand to the rear, and a more-normal rear tender light on back wall of coal bunker.
 
( CNR Suburban Tank Engines had Pilots and Steam Lines both ends.
 
 
FWIW.
 
In above photo CN 89 is locomotive to right.
 
A locomotive, steam or Diesel could derail very easily running without the protection of a pilot or footboards to rear.
 
Snow would pile up and over traction motors if entering snow filled siding with A Unit backing, or B Unit.
 
When shoving into an unplowed siding with light cars, caboose, or flats, often the locomotives would be uncoupled and run in first.
 
Uncleared flangeways filled with ice, or ice and road sand would derail a caboose just like that!
 
In Pusher Service locally, the Caboose would sometimes be on downhill end of tender running back down light for another push, often making several pushes a day.
 
Special Markers applied to Locomotive for this move. See Rule Book.
 
Photos exist of a Caboose leading tender on downhill run w a Road steam headlight on roof running board on downhill end beyond Cupola for illumination, an extension cord run over roof and screwed into socket of locomotive tender light.
 
Back in the day, we used to run in reverse on Work Trains, Caboose leading, at speeds of 45-50 miles per hour, miles from Supervision as roads not paved around lake and Up/Down the Columbia/Kootenay.
 
Some loved it.
 

Thank You.

 

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, October 12, 2018 10:22 AM

Leave it to Steven to always ask those difficult questions - sort of like, what do you do when you have painted yourself into a corner.  Clown

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

Silly Aspie's, I have NT syndrome

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Posted by NWP SWP on Friday, October 12, 2018 10:28 AM

If no one asked the difficult questions things would get boring in a hurry!Laugh

Steven

Crooner, Imagineer, High School Graduate, living with Aspergers, President of the Republica Pacifica micronation,  President of the NWP-SWP System.

Hook'em Longhorns! 

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Posted by xboxtravis7992 on Friday, October 12, 2018 11:50 AM

Use a smaller locomotive and take it slow... A lot of logging and mining roads were adept at running steam engines backwards, but those were often with Shays, Moguls or Consolidations, with rear facing headlights and pilots on the back of the  tender.

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Posted by JWhite on Saturday, October 13, 2018 12:16 PM

You don't need to use a small engine. Large engines were used to work the coal mines in Southern Illinois and Western Kentucky.

It was normal operating procedure to run tender first on the mine runs.  The IC used 2-8-2s, 2-10-2s and 4-8-2s for those duties.  There are plenty of photographs of these locomotives with large locomotive headlights mounted on the tenders, sometimes on platforms a couple of feet over the tender deck.

The CB&Q used 2-8-2s and 2-10-4s the same way.

Jeff White

Alma, IL

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, October 13, 2018 8:01 PM

xboxtravis7992

Use a smaller locomotive and take it slow... A lot of logging and mining roads were adept at running steam engines backwards, but those were often with Shays, Moguls or Consolidations, with rear facing headlights and pilots on the back of the  tender.

 

They used what they had, but Moguls and Consolidations didn't seem to be the first choice, at least for logging, with their "creative" trackwork.  I've seen lots of 2-6-2's, 2-8-2's, and 2-6-6-2's in logging service.  I'm pretty sure that little trailing truck wasn't put there just to hold up the back of the engine.

For mining, I suspect the need for trailing-trucked locos was lower because the trackwork was probably better.  They ran heavier loads (I believe) and they didn't relocate the mines nearly as often as loggers relocated load-outs.

Ed

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Posted by wjstix on Sunday, October 14, 2018 10:28 PM

The DM&IR used 2-8-8-2 "Hill Mallets" to run ore cars from Proctor yard down to the ore docks in Duluth and back. The engine didn't have a way to turn, so ran backwards one way and forward the other. These had a headlight, pilot, and bell on the rear of the tender.

Stix

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