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Pennsylvania Green, no not "Black Green" I mean GREEN!

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Pennsylvania Green, no not "Black Green" I mean GREEN!
Posted by NWP SWP on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:00 PM

I was flipping through my Walthers Flyer and saw their GP7 passenger units, one of which is in a Pennsylvania Railroad Green paint scheme, but not Brunswick Green, more like a Sage Green, kinda like Canadian Nationals old green. Any ideas on this?

Steven

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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:42 PM

The only Walthers GP7's I come up with claim to be painted in Brunswick Green.  You say it's not Brunswick Green.  I do think it looks kinda "bright" for BG, but I'm not an official Pennsy kind of guy.

A possibility is that the green is really darker, but that they dialed up the brightness of the photo to illustrate the details.

One could, I suppose, order one or more of these and find out on arrival just what the color really is.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 5:00 PM

First of all there is a PRR Historical Society issue with the green paint being called Brunswick green or Dark Green locomotive Enamel (DGLE).  Latest is either MAY be ok but DGLE is preferred. It is very close to black and anything else is not right.  Some maufacturers do not want the modeling commitee to help or advise them.  Seems that one would be pretty easy to get right.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:23 PM

Weren't there some GG1's that were green?   Maybe not, I see models that are green and a photoshopped poster, but not a real loco.  I would describe the color as olive drab.  Did they do that in photoshop just to show the detail better?   No idea, but I'm not fond of that shade of green

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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:36 PM

Here's a pretty decent looking green (Bachmann).  To me:

 

 Here's the Walthers GP7:

 

 

 

Ed

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:55 PM

 That Walther's unit looks the same color as my P2k Reading GP7s. Not right for PRR. 

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Posted by NWP SWP on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:07 PM

Yeah that's what I was trying to say, I highly doubt that the shade is accurate as far as the photos go. Hopefully it is just a photo shop thing.

Steven

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:31 PM

NWP SWP
not Brunswick Green, more like a Sage Green

Actually sage is a light green and nowhere near as dark as the lighter dark green on the Bachmann locomotive.

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Posted by j. c. on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:47 PM

BigDaddy

Weren't there some GG1's that were green?   Maybe not, I see models that are green and a photoshopped poster, but not a real loco.  I would describe the color as olive drab.  Did they do that in photoshop just to show the detail better?   No idea, but I'm not fond of that shade of green

 

here is the answer to your question http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr4859gga.jpg 

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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:38 AM

Yeah I think that it's a shade of olive drab instead of Brunswick green. Big mistake if the models are actually that color!

Steven

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:02 PM

NWP SWP
Big mistake if the models are actually that color!

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Maybe not that big of a mistake.

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The sun presents a tremendous amout of light against a large surface area on the real locomotives. We cannot duplicate that in our train rooms. That is why we paint our steam locomotives dark gray instead of black.

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Military modelers have understood "paint scale" for decades. This means that a 1:144 model of a P-38 should be a lighter green than a 1:48 scale model of the same airplane.

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Following this idea, an N scale PENNSYLVANIA GP-9 should be lighter green than an O scale version of the same model.

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*** NOT MY MODEL***

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This is one of my 1:144 scale P-38s, painted a more "correct" color green, but you can see, it does not look quite the same, or as correct as the lighter colored model.

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A real P-38:

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Model railroaders have never fully engaged this idea.

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-Kevin

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:14 PM

An interesting idea.  But how to quantify it?

 

Meanwhile, we have an HO model that looks "funny", to an assortment of modelers.  And this is with models professionally photographed by Walthers, themselves.

 

I just received my Walthers flyer.  The PRR GP9 looks awful.  Either it DOES look awful.  Or their photographer and art department is showing us a total failure of photography.

 

Yikes.  Is all I can say.

 

Ed

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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:35 PM

A minor variation is acceptable.

I think it's a appearance thing, for example at the club they have a few woodchip cars which have rather bright shades of blue as their paint, in my opinion they could use a slightly duller version of the color so as to not look toy-like. 

As I said a minor variation, Brunswick green can be blacker, or greener, as long as it's still the "same" color, like my BLI PRR T-1 it is actually a grayer version of Brunswick green, but still if you look at it you see its not black, but it's not green, but not grey either, it's a little of all three.

Steven

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Posted by mobilman44 on Thursday, June 28, 2018 9:20 AM

OK, gotta ask........if you are not in the market for it, why care about the color in an advertising flyer?   Obviously the color in a picture or image can differ from the real item.  And as mentioned, colors fade and age too, along with the fact that the paint formula may change over time as well.

But it comes back to this......if you ain't buying, who cares?

ENJOY  !

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, June 28, 2018 11:03 AM

mobilman44

OK, gotta ask........if you are not in the market for it, why care about the color in an advertising flyer?

But it comes back to this......if you ain't buying, who cares?

 

 

One reason could be because there are some customers who "might not know any better".  And then come to regret the purchase after finally finding out.  Afterwards. I have benefitted several times by having such mistakes pointed out before I spent my money.

Another could be that the manufacturer is not aware of the mistake.  Yet.  It does seem likely that they wouldn't intentionally make a mistake, so informing might give them a chance to correct it.  Note that these paint schemes have just been announced.  There is likely still time to make the correction.  Whether or not this information is conveyed privately or in public, it still is useful.

A third reason is that it establishes, when combined with other errors, the extent of "mistakeness" of a manufacturer.  And the more mistakeness, the more eagle eyed one should be.  So when the manufacturer later produces something for YOUR railroad, you can apply a little extra eye-time.

 

So.  There's three reasons.  Maybe someone can come up with more.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by NWP SWP on Thursday, June 28, 2018 12:07 PM

It's so another newbie less knowledgeable who might be lurking here and considering purchasing the model can know that it's not exactly accurate in its paint color. 

It's called contributing to the community.

Steven

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, June 28, 2018 12:22 PM

I wouldn't put too much into a comparison of two model photos (Bachmann and Walthers) taken by different photographers under (most likely) different lighting conditions. I think a PRR fan would probably need to see the actual model and judge how correct it would look on their layout.

Kevin raises a great point about model vs. real colors. Military modellers routinely paint things a lighter shade than the actual plane, tank etc., knowing that under artificial lighting the actual color would look too dark on a model. Some of my fellow oldsters might remember the hubbub 25 years ago or so when Stewart came out with Burlington Route F units painted with the correct prototype shade of light gray. The real engines in the sunlight looked white despite actually being light gray; the models under indoor lights looked...well gray, kinda like primer gray or even a touch darker.

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Posted by tstage on Thursday, June 28, 2018 12:38 PM

So, how did the Brunswick Green weather on the prototype?  I assume it got lighter...but did it look greener?  Or, did it just look like a lighter shade a off-black?

Tom

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Posted by NWP SWP on Thursday, June 28, 2018 12:55 PM

The P38 model looks good because the color is "close enough" if it was a lime, light moss green, or seafoam green it would obviously be a failure to match the real thing.

From what I've seen is PRR units "tend" to fade to a grayer shade of not quite black with a shade of green.

Steven

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Posted by garya on Thursday, June 28, 2018 1:30 PM

SeeYou190

 

The sun presents a tremendous amout of light against a large surface area on the real locomotives. We cannot duplicate that in our train rooms. That is why we paint our steam locomotives dark gray instead of black.

.

Military modelers have understood "paint scale" for decades. This means that a 1:144 model of a P-38 should be a lighter green than a 1:48 scale model of the same airplane.

I recently repainted a Tyco/Mantua Little 6.   I used a dark gray rattle can primer, and I wish I had stopped there.  I thought it looked too gray, so I painted it a flat black.  It looks like a black hole on my layout:

I'm going to have to lighten it up a bit...

Gary
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, June 28, 2018 2:12 PM

garya
I painted it a flat black. It looks like a black hole on my layout:

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This is the color formula I use on all my "black" models. I first saw it in a Paint Shop article in Model Railroader decades ago.

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4 Parts Black

1 Part White

1 Part Red

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I have loved the results.

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-Kevin

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, June 28, 2018 2:56 PM

Here's the real PRR I grew up around and would work for... I was but,a young lad when I took these photos.

 

 

Larry

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, June 28, 2018 4:25 PM

I like to refer to this site by renown photographer John Dziobko who has quite a few decent-quality color photos of the Pennsy here:

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pbr.asp?Road=PRR

For example — GP7 fairly clean:

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=1921

GP7 fairly "aged":

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=1995

You decide...

As others have mentioned, the perception of color is very subjective. Age, weathering and paint formulations cause a great deal of variation. Add to that color shifts induced by film and processing and age of the photo, time of day, sunlight and weather conditions and you have a real challange to determine the "actual" color.

 PC_2-2-69 by Edmund, on Flickr

Articles I've read about the PRR procurement of paints often cite variations from manufacturer to manufacturer, some shops blending their own paint on-site and even variations caused by the equipment used for application.

One photo I recall seeing was of a brand new EMD locomotive spotted close to a new GE locomotive and there was a distinct difference in color. They even had two different "Keystone" emblems applied, one in Toludine red background with white  and the other with yellow lettering.

Broadway Limited works closely with the PRRT&HS to get details and painting accurate however, variances do slip by. My S2 Turbine looks more like the "mossy green" and the other I1sa locomotives in this picture are closer to the dark green:

 IMG_2915_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

When I shoot Scalecoat Brunswick Green the result is a nice, like new, glossy dark green:

 PRR_tender by Edmund, on Flickr

Then after a light coat of Testors Dullcoat (same tender) the color takes on a much lighter appearance, which I anticipate in advance:

 IMG_9704_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

I'm OK with that.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by mlehman on Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:06 AM

I suspect the Geep in the funny green costume was intended to better show the detail on this loco. It's very difficult to get this sort of contrast without lightening up things more generally. Whether Photoshopped (most likely) or a one-off repaint, that and the combination with the need for adjustments and corrections in the printing process can lead to these sorts of concerns. I suspect inspection of the finished model will reflect the fact this isn't the first Pennsy DGLE loco they've painted.

Ed's point about variations in the color of new PA is well-taken, as this is not as exact a science for most roads nt

Yes, it would be nice if the ad's color rendering was somewhat more accurate to fhe discerning eye. I rather doubt it's as far off as it seems here, though the coloration in that image  does raise that concern.

 If you want a cheap and accessible sub for DGLE, consider Rust-Oleum 214086, Charleston Green. Very dark, but still clearly green - in the right light. Wink

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, July 01, 2018 7:15 AM

7j43k

Here's a pretty decent looking green (Bachmann).  To me:

 

 Here's the Walthers GP7:

 

 

 

Ed

 

Take a look at the ties on the track in the two photos.  The ties the walthers model is sitting on are pretty washed out (cant tell if they are black or brown).  Also notice the lack of shadows,  ergo the photo was overexposed or too much light...or whatever..Its probably the photo.

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Posted by wjstix on Sunday, July 01, 2018 10:36 PM

Yes, if you look at the Bachmann FA picture, everything in the picture (trucks, track etc.) are darker. Note too that on the Walthers GP the truck sideframes, which are also painted green, appear darker than the engine because they're in shadow. The rear truck almost appears black.

If you look at the entire picture in the July-August Flyer (pages 2-3) you'll notice that the engine is pushing a Walthers Jordan Spreader, which appears to be painted flat black. There seems to me to be stronger light on that side of the picture, probably to try to show the details on the Spreader. The reefer cars behind the engine seem a bit lighter or washed out too. 

Like I said, I think you'd have to wait and see one in person to judge how accurate it is. 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 09, 2018 2:17 PM

wjstix
Yes, if you look at the Bachmann FA picture, everything in the picture (trucks, track etc.) are darker. Note too that on the Walthers GP the truck sideframes, which are also painted green, appear darker than the engine because they're in shadow. The rear truck almost appears black.

If I remember correctly the running gear below the belt line, including the trucks, on all these PRR first-generation engines was painted black (not Brunswick/DGLE of any formulation, alkyd or acrylic).  It will be hours to days before I can confirm this with volume and page references, but I think it is clearly borne out in many photographs.

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, July 09, 2018 3:55 PM

Overmod
If I remember correctly the running gear below the belt line, including the trucks, on all these PRR first-generation engines was painted black

You are correct, sir:

 PRR_paint_line_A by Edmund, on Flickr

Line "A"

 PRR_paint_instruction by Edmund, on Flickr

You can read in the notes that when the striping was no longer gold leaf but dulux gold paint, there was another change which ended the practice of applying two coats of clear varnish. This would certainly affect the appearance, especially after months of hard use and repeated washings.

This happens to be the only print I can find at the moment. It is the EMD E7.

Somewhere around here I have some GP-7 & 9 prints.

 PRR_paint_A_edited-1 by Edmund, on Flickr

For you detail-oriented modelers, be sure to have accurate line spacing at the point of the five stripes!

 PRR_paint_stripe by Edmund, on Flickr

 PRR_paint_stripe_nose by Edmund, on Flickr

If you care to look through the indax you may find discussions and reviews of models painted Brunswick Green in "The Keystone Modeler" magazine of the PRRT&HS. This can be found at thrir web site.

Hope that helps, Ed

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, July 09, 2018 5:01 PM

If the trucks on the Walthers PRR GP are black (as they're supposed to be) then the picture is seriously overexposed / overlit. I've seen pictures in the Walthers Flyers with an engine where it looks like it's floating on a black void since the trucks are black and show no detail. Back to square one, until someone sees one in person it's just guesswork what they really look like.

Stix

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