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EMD NW2 switchers: Determining shutters or fans?

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EMD NW2 switchers: Determining shutters or fans?
Posted by tstage on Sunday, June 24, 2018 2:49 PM

Greetings -

I recently purchased a couple of Kato NW2 shells off eBay, which I plan on stripping.  The bottom portion of one of the shells will be a replacement for the stressed walkway of my undecorated NW2 shell when I had to pry up the front end to dislodge it from the chassis.  (Wow!  Was THAT a bear to get off! Tongue Tied)  I did file down the chassis "pimples" that hold the shell to the frame so that issue won't repeat itself.

My question has to do with visibility.  There are etch-metal detailing sets for the Kato NW2 manufactured by KV Models:

Grilles, sun shades, wipers & deflectors*

Radiator fan*

*[I've chosen to use the eBay links because they show more detail pics than the manufacture's website.  In the event that the eBay links do go away, here's the link to the detailing sets on the KV Models site.]

Q: How visible were the louvers shutters or radiator fans through the grilles?  Also, is there a way to determine which one might have been used on my prototype if prototype photos aren't readily available?

I checked the Fallen Flags website and did find one front view photo taken in 1964:

The front grille is larger (like ones found on the SW7s) than the one taken in the photo below (ca. 1948-49):

The first photo appears to have moving fan blades.  Are those louvers shutters that are barely visible in the 2nd photo?

I'm interested in replicating the look of the earlier NW2 (ca. 1946-49) but I don't know which or when ones might have come with louvers shutters or fan blades.

Thanks for the help ahead of time...

Tom

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, June 24, 2018 3:01 PM

Tom,IIRC all EMD switchers had fan blades,the shutters (not louvers) would open or close automatically as soon as the fan engaged or shut off.

Larry

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, June 24, 2018 4:25 PM

Tom,

For the "full height" radiator intake, there was a single large fan.  The "partial height" (NW2) had two smaller fans.

The shutters (thank you Brakie) were in front of the fan(s).  As Brakie said, they opened and closed, as necessary.  If you install the shutters in the open position, you could see the fan blades.  If you put them in.

The shutters in the lower photo are closed.  Note that the loco appears to be parked. The engine is likely shut down, and thus would need no cooling.  Or perhaps it's just idling on a cold day, and still needs little cooling.

I am also working on an NW2.  Mine is a Varney.  I must thank you for showing me these detail parts.  I will now order some for my project.

Here's some links to useful views.  The first two are SW1200's, with the big single fan.  The latter two are NW2's.

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/184350/

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=797776

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1874429

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3586593

 

Wouldn't it be fun if we could fit little teeny motors so that the fan(s) could spin?

 

Ed

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Posted by Enzoamps on Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:47 PM

OK< I know nothing, what is the difference between shutters and louvers here?

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, June 24, 2018 9:03 PM

Enzoamps

OK< I know nothing, what is the difference between shutters and louvers here?

 

 

On trains, louvers don't move.  They're not adjustable.  They're usually multiple stacked horizontal slits, overhanging each other.  This allows ventilation, but also lessens likelihood of rain entry.

Shutters DO move.  They can be in an open or a closed position.  Or in between.

 

Ed

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, June 24, 2018 9:36 PM

Larry & Ed: Thanks for your insight on this.  I really appreciate it.

Enzo: Thanks for your question because I was wondering the difference myself. Big Smile

And any further input from others on the topic is still appreciated, as well.

I ordered all three etched NW2 detail sets directly from AV Models.  I'll experiment installing them on one of the spare NW2 shells I just picked up on eBay.  If I like how it turns out then I'll try it on my undecorated NW2 shell.

Tom

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, June 25, 2018 12:00 AM

I recall seeing various EMD switcher models with additional canvas dampers, either rolled-up in warm weather or deployed as on this EMC SW-1 here:

 P-C_8441 by Edmund, on Flickr

Photo by Roger Pu_ta; used with permission

Or on an SW-900 here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129679309@N05/19067655712/in/album-72157654210788010/

That would make a unique detail probably not found on many models. I'll see if I can find a photo of the canvas rolled up and belted above the screen.

Speaking of the tight-fit of the shell, Tom, have you figured out where you are going to squeeze a decoder in there? I have one NW-2 that is still DC sitting on the shelf for that very reason...

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 25, 2018 4:22 AM

gmpullman

I recall seeing various EMD switcher models with additional canvas dampers, either rolled-up in warm weather or deployed as on this EMC SW-1 here:

Photo by Roger Pu_ta; used with permission

Or on an SW-900 here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129679309@N05/19067655712/in/album-72157654210788010/

That would make a unique detail probably not found on many models. I'll see if I can find a photo of the canvas rolled up and belted above the screen.

Hi Ed,

Here's a few from the FF website:

I'm guessing that the additional horizontal bars across the front in the last photo were to keep the canvas flap from resting too close to the grille?

Speaking of the tight-fit of the shell, Tom, have you figured out where you are going to squeeze a decoder in there? I have one NW-2 that is still DC sitting on the shelf for that very reason...

Good Luck, Ed

Right now it's just DC, Ed.  You're correct there isn't much room for a decoder unless you do some substantial milling/modifying of the chassis.  Even fitting an N- or Z-size decoder in the cab area would be pretty tight. Tongue Tied

Tom

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, June 25, 2018 5:05 AM

Tom, thanks for those photos Yes

There's something "primative" about that rolled-up canvas on the radiator opening. Even with automatic temperature controls there's still the need for going "back-to-basics". Even some modern semi-trucks use zippered radiator covers.

I love that "nuclear" radio symbol on the 8701 Cool and note the rusted/damaged spark arrestor. That's one of those kinds of details that just doesn't look right if you model it (the damaged arrestor) even though it is plain as day in the photo.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, June 25, 2018 10:33 AM

GN and NYC can fight it out over who operates in the coldest part of the country.  Here's a shot of a GN switcher with its canvas cover:

Note also that you can see the fan.  And the shutters are open.

GN 100 was born an EMC (not EMD) model NC in January 1938.  It was rebuilt as an SW1200 in 1955.  It went to BN as BN 106, and was sold in 1986. 

 

As far as decoder placement, I'm putting a Hobbytown drive under my Varney body.  And moving the motor way forward.  And dropping the flywheels.  The speaker is going behind the motor.  And a "keep alive" behind that.  And (back to the subject at hand) the decoder is going under the cab floor.

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, June 25, 2018 2:40 PM

7j43k
GN 100 was born an EMC (not EMD) model NC in January 1938.

Interesting reading here:

https://ctr.trains.com/~/media/files/pdf/not-built-at-la-grange.pdf

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, June 28, 2018 10:31 PM

I just received my photo-etched parts from KV Models, as mentioned by Tom.

Oh, my!  Just stunning.

The scary part (well, one of them) is that the fan blades should be twisted a bit.  To make a fan.  We'll see.  Well, I'll see.

Also the shutters are delivered closed.  If you want to use them open, you'll have to bend the pieces, also.

Whatever.  I AM supposed to be a real modeler, so I'll just be ever-so-careful.  

 

 

I also bought the cab doors.  That's because photos of the units I want to model have the doors open.  You know--a nice summer day--get some ventilation in the cab.  If I can pull it off, it'll be nice.

Because I'm using a Hobbytown drive, it's easy to have an "empty" cab.  And I have the detailing kit from Keystone to decorate it.  So those open doors will look really great.

The glass in the window is kinda stressful, though.

 

Thanks, Tom, for mentioning this source.  And thanks, Scott, for making some really nice photo-engravings.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by tstage on Thursday, June 28, 2018 11:17 PM

Your welcome, Ed.  I received all three etched detail kits from KV Models yesterday and - I agree - they look terrific!  The one thing I wish were included with the kits were instruction sheets.  I did email Scott with a couple of questions and hope to hear back from him soon.

One of my two Kato NW2 shells that I picked up on eBay is scheduled to arrive tomorrow.  That will be my experimental shell in preparation to adding the detail kits to my undecorated shell.  If I'm happy with the results then I may eventually pick up the KV Model kits for the Walthers SW1, Proto 2000 S1, and Stewart VO-660 & VO-1000 switchers.  The pictures on the website look great!

Tom

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Posted by tstage on Friday, July 06, 2018 7:24 PM

Well, I added the front grille, grille frame, and fan blades to one of my extra shells that I purchased off eBay and the effect is stunning. YesCool  Once I apply them to my undecorated shell that I plan to paint & detail in the NYC scheme I'll post pics.

I also tried the visors over the cab windows and they, too, look great.  However, because of the thinness of the photo-etched metal (0.01"), you can't bend/rebend them more than 4-5 times before they weaken and break at the supports.  So, if you do use them on your model, you have to take extra care in handling it.  You would also need to store the locomotive upright (vs. laying it on it's side).

I do have another question, which I speculated about in an earlier post:

What are the two additional horizontal bars across the front grille for in the photo below?

I surmised that it possibly helped keep the canvas flap (above the grille) from laying completely flat against the grille in colder weather; thereby restricting too much airflow to the radiator.  Or...and this just occurred to me...it allows the canvas flap to be tied-off in 4 positions: Open, 1/3 closed, 2/3 closed, Closed.  Does that seem like a reasonable conclusion?

Thanks,

Tom

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, July 07, 2018 12:37 AM

tstage
What are the two additional horizontal bars across the front grille for in the photo below?

I'm going to guess that these bars were added (some photos show them, some do not) to help protect the shutters from objects (crewmen riding the front platform?) damaging them. It looks like a design change that uses thinner expanded metal mesh that is less robust than some of the earlier SW models use.

 nyc8807_DES13J by Edmund, on Flickr

The screening on the 8807 here looks pretty flimsy.

[edit]

Well, on the other hand, here's an SW-1 with the horizontal bars which seem to be performing the job you mention, Tom, keeping the canvas from "sticking" to the screen. I wonder if a combination of wind and fan suction caused the screening to give-way and these bars were an attempt to cure that?

 nyc8417_DES15B_crop by Edmund, on Flickr

Just my My 2 Cents guess...

Anyone else?

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, July 07, 2018 10:22 PM

As still another possibility, I can see how the canvas was supposed to be passed under the horizontal bars, and then hooked up on the hooks above (I DO see one, at least, on 8807), using the wooden rod.

Maybe.

Tom.

Since I'm sitting here with the same pile-o-parts as you, what questions did you have, and what were the answers.

 

Ed

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Posted by tstage on Saturday, July 07, 2018 10:58 PM

Scott did get back to me on the grille query, Ed.  What I stll wasn't clear on was whether the grille AND vertical supports were supposed to be removed from the shell...or, just the grille; leaving the vertical supports in place.  I did the latter but it left a slight "shadow" between the grille and the fan.  I also opted to use 5-min epoxy vs CA (Steve's suggestion) so I could have longer positioning time.

Tom

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, July 08, 2018 11:44 AM

Tom,

Interesting.  My take is that the "vertical supports" piece is to be attached directly on top of the "screen" piece, so as to provide appropiate visual depth to the assembly.  And that you take out the whole grille (and vertical supports) in the Kato body.  And replace it with this piece.  At the same level as the cast-on screen.

What I am wondering about is how far in the shutters should be.  Not much, judging from the photo of 8807.  And also the fans, which I can likely puzzle out from the photos I've linked here.

And then, of course, there's mounting these pieces.  Patience, Grasshopper, patience.

 

Also thrown into the mix is how far INSIDE this improvement will project.  The Hobbytown gear tower is just inside.  Yikes!  That may mean that I'll have to leave the fans off.  Or perhaps not twist the blades, and mount the piece further out.

 

Ed

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, July 08, 2018 1:49 PM

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the reply.

You are correct that the grille bracket is glued on top of the grille.  The bracket on the Kato shell has molded bolt heads and those are easily be removed with a #17 X-acto knife.  The glued grille/grille bracket is then glued on top of the molded bracket on the shell.

From photos I've seen posted on the KV Models website or somewhere else, the louvers and fan detail pieces are attached from the inside of the shell.  (Note the amount of extra material and the two notches at the bottom of the grille and fan pieces.  Those notches are for inside clearance of the narrow angle handrail on the front of the shell.)  Scott suggests on the website to model either/or and not both.  His reasoning is that the louvers are hardly visible when they are open.

I agree with you that the grille in #8807 looks fairly close to the grille, which would be further away if you attach the detail piece on the inside.  However, I measured the thickness of the Kato NW2 shell: 0.048" (or 4.18" HO-scale).  That being the case, I think gluing either the louvers or fan detail will be close enough for a prototypical look?

Ed, I tried an experiment and trimmed the extra material from the louvers to see if I could get it into the open of the shell.  The external dimensions end up being the same size as the grille & grille bracket.  So, you won't be able to fit it into the opening of the shell unless you cut the opening larger - i.e. eliminate the molded grille bracket on the shell altogether.  Then you have to figure out how you will mount the grille so that it stays in place.  Not sure if it's worth the effort.

One of my questons for Scott was when does he paint the photo-etched pieces - i.e. before or after applying them?  I'm still waiting to hear back from him about that one.

Tom

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, July 08, 2018 3:31 PM

Tom,

Here's a thought:

On the back surface of the grille assembly, attach Evergreen strip all around.  Then attach the shutters to the back of that.  If you cut a hole through the body that includes the rivet strips, you can slide the assembly in place from the inside.  And you'll have a tab all around the edge for glueing.  On the INSIDE.  The Evergreen strips will have to have the same thickness as the shell.

Bad news is that there's no room for error in cutting the hole.  Good news is that you have to build up the whole assembly before installation, so if it gets screwed up, you can toss it and build another.  And installation looks to be a piece of pie.  Or whatever.

You COULD ask: "How do I know if Evergreen makes the right thickness?".  That's a real good question.  Ideally, you have a scrap shell to butcher and find out.  Or, of course, you could open up the hole large enough to measure, but still hold off on making it full size.  After all, you do have to make the hole.

 

Ed

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