Hi everyone,
I was playing a train simulator game the other day, and as I was making a switching move in a yard with a Big Boy, I started to wonder... How big of a locomotive would actually drop off/pick up cars? I know that the bigger the locomotive, the more likely it was used as a hotshot or yard to yard loco, and would probably at most set out cuts of cars at interchanges or other yards, while smaller locomotives would pick up those cars and deliver them on locals.
But how big of a locomotive would actually switch a car or two at an industry spur along the way? I know the weight of the loco, sharpness of the turnout into the spur, overall train length, and the capacity of the rail would all have something to do with that, but at what size would a loco simply be considered too big/not worth the trouble of using to set out individual cars? Articulated steam and larger diesels I'd expect would be right out, (I doubt you'd see a Big Boy or SD90MAC setting out a pair of gons at a scrap yard) but what would be a general rule of thumb, especially for modelers?
Thanks.
- Adam
When all else fails, wing it!
There isn't really a definitive answer, it could vary based on the railroad, the era you're looking at, and other factors. But just to at least get a general idea, you can kinda tell what a steam engine was designed to do by it's appearance.
A steam engine with no lead or trailing trucks - like an 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 - was primarily used for yard switching, although they could be seen on transfers from one yard to another also. Sometimes used switchers were bought by shortlines where short way freights at slow speeds were the norm. They had small drivers, enabling them to pull long strings of cars, but only at slow speeds. (An old rule of thumb was that the driver diameter in inches was roughly equivalent to the engine's top speed in miles per hour.)
Engines with a four-wheel lead truck normally also had fairly high driving wheels, and were designed for high speed mainline service, such as a 4-8-2 or 4-6-2. If used in freight service, it would normally not be locals, but mainline trains running from one city to another (although in the last days of steam sometimes older engines of these types were used on locals.) Of course, many of these engines were designed for passenger service.
Engines with a two-wheels in the lead (2-8-0, 2-8-2) also usually had small to mid-size drivers, and were used on freight trains. Depending on the era, they might be used on mainline inter-city freights, or on local trains...that is, a "state of the art" 2-8-2 c.1913 might be used on mainline freights, but by the 1930's have been bumped to local service by newer, faster freight engines like 2-8-4s.
As you mention, articulated / mallet engines were designed for long, heavy mainline trains with little or no switching involved.
LonehawkBut how big of a locomotive would actually switch a car or two at an industry spur along the way?
Its not the size of the locomotive, its the type of train and the crew.
Crews are covered by labor agreements that divide the work load. Generally there are three types of crews: yard crews that work in yards, local crews that do industry work and through freight crews that haul cars between yards and interchanges.
There are different types of trains, yard engines (which technically aren't "trains"), locals, and through freights.
The type of train does certain work and the type of crew is selected to match the work the train does. If a train works industries, the crew gets paid the higher rate of pay as a local. The assigned local crew might also get a penalty payment because you had another crew do "their" work.
Also railroads don't like through freights to stop and do industry work because every time a train stops it increases costs. The crews are on duty longer, the main track (or a siding) is blocked while the work is being done. Railroads will avoid having road trains do industry work if they can.
The engines are designed to do the work for which they were intended. Any engine can set out and pick up in a yard because all trains originate and terminate in a yard so they have to be able to get in yards. Engines which are not intended to do local work will not be suitable to do local work. A 4-8-8-4 is intended to be a hotshot freight engine. Its not going to be normally assigned to a local. On the other hand a 2-6-6-2 was intended to be on locals and were commonly assigned to "locals" (trains serving coal mines).
With diesels, its a little harder. A General Manager once told me, "Either track is in service or its not." His point was if the track is in service then any engine shouldbe able to use it. If the track wasn't in good enough shape for an engine to use then it needs to be repaired.
What engines your railroad uses for locals depends on your railroad. It could be anything from 0-4-0's to 2-8-8-2's, anything from GE 44 tonners up to SD70's. Depends on the railroad and location. Generally most local engines are 2-8-0/2-8-2 or smaller, or 4 axle diesels.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Adam,The N&W used their Y and A's on locals and mine runs as well as a yard engine for heavy switching.PRR used 0-8-8-0s for yard switching.
I've seen SD70s and AC44s on locals.
Due to work rules and agreements a road crew was limited to three switching jobs unless the train was a inter divisional transfer train but,could not switch industries unless set forth by rules and agreements due to the customer requiring specific switching time..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Somewhere in my files, I have pictures of a pair of SD70s dutifully pulling a lone boxcar to a local warehouse. There's no power based in the yard there, so switching duty is handled by whatever comes in on the transfer from Manassas or the ethanol train.
Yes. There are so many exceptions to the rule, especially after diesels are getting long in the tooth, that you can often see diesels that were once prime mainline power being used in secondary service or locals.
I don't know much about steam however, but I'd think it pretty unusual to see a big boy in local service.
But peope come in her asking if they can do this or that all the time and my universal answer is, hey, it's your RR or your simulation. Do what you want and I'm not going to call the RR gestapo on you.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I can envision a Big Boy dropping off stock cars at the front of the train for the compulsory cattle rest stop.
Perhaps incorrectly.
Ed
It's not unheard of to have through freight crews do local work. On some lines, where to amount of local work doesn't justify a separate assigned local, they'll have a through freight do it. It was done in the steam era and is still done today in places. (Although I wouldn't expect to see a Big Boy working a track side industry.)
Concerning work rules, while there are restrictions on how much intermediate work a through freight could do, it doesn't mean they couldn't be made to do more than the specified number. (Brakie said 3 events, and that still holds true today.) It means if they were made to exceed the specified number, they would be able to claim a penalty payment. In this case, claiming the higher local freight rate rather than the through freight rate. And some events wouldn't count towards the limit of 3. A couple off the top of my head, and possibly railroad agreement specific, setting out a car that developed a defect and couldn't continue didn't count. Setting out or picking up livestock or perishables may not count. If you can find an old agreement book (they're out there at train shows) for the era, if not the railroad you follow, you might be surprised at how many things modellers do that might have resulted in penalty payments. Often because such things are kind of invisible to the casual observer.
Here's a thought on how to incorporate work rules in an operating session for owners who provide refreshments at the end of the session. If a road crew has to work more than 3 intermediate stations or do yard switching where a yard engine is on duty, have them claim an extra doughnut at the end of the operating session.
Jeff
Jeff is correct, setting out a bad order does not count as a work event.
In some places picking up behind cars in a track counts as two work events (lets say you have blocks A and B in a track, the train has to pick up the B's. the engine couples into the track (Eng-A-B), sets the B's to the train and sets the A's back to the track. Under some agreements that counts as a pick up of B's and set out of A's, 2 events.
I would think that picking up or setting out any commodity would count, but that might be different by local agreement. The trainmen's agreement on the Reading Co. allowed coal trains to "adjust tonnage" at up to 3 locations.
Some agreement provide for 3 events at origin, 3 events at termination and 3 events on line. Starting out of the originating yard track counts as one at the origin and yarding the train at the final terminal counts as one. Pulling or delivering to an interchange counts as one. Switching engines does not count as a work event, nor does doubling over or cutting or coupling crossings.
Local agreements prevail.
Jeff is also correct that in some cases they have through freight crews do local work, and conversely in some case they have locals do through freight work.
On one territory all the on line local work went away, the only switching was done by traveling switch engines at two locations. But to have a traveling switch engine, there had to be a local on the territory. So the railroad designated a low priority manifest train as the local. It ran under a manifest symbol but had a local crew. It did no local work, just set out blocks at two locations. It ran as a tri-weekly local and the other side was covered with a through freight crew.
On another territory there was one or two customers that recieved maybe one car a week. They had no bulletined local on the sub, just used a low end manifest train to switch the industry on an as needed basis and paid them the local rate as required.
With steam locomotives, the engineer and fireman's pay was based in part on the size / weight of the engine - the bigger the engine, the higher the pay. It was to the railroad's financial benefit to use the smallest engine that could do the job at hand. That doesn't mean in a pinch you couldn't find 6 or 7 cars being pulled by a 2-10-4, but it would be rare.
Work rules within a yard can be different than on the road. I recall NP had a situation where one of their passenger trains (The Mainstreeter?) had to drop off a mail/express car during a station stop in a town. So the crew stopped the train at the station, uncoupled the engines with the head-end car, set it out on a side track, and then recoupled the train and left when scheduled. However, because the station tracks were within the yard limits of NP's nearby freight yard, they ended up having to pay the passenger train's crew a day's pay for working in the yard, plus their regular day's pay working the passenger train. Once NP realized that was the case, they switched the routine so the passenger crew just put the engines in idle and a switcher came out from the yard and switched out the head-end car while the passenger crew just went along for the ride.
Longer locomotives can be hard to use in yard or local switching due to the length they add to the train, their restrictions on curves, and rough handling on lighter rail... but its not impossible. I have seen SD70's as common local power on the Union Pacific now, and SD40N's doing yard switching work. In the modern era, six axle power is the norm on almost everything. I have even seen Norfolk Southern's Penn Central Heritage Unit being used briefly as a yard switcher once. As for steam, longer steam engines I imagine are trickier to use in a yard than a long diesel engine would be. That tender is going to reduce visibility; and reversing in a steam engine is a bit lengthier of a process than on a diesel. I doubt you would see a 4-8-8-4 doing much pick ups or drop offs in a yard, unless it was a simple cut of cars it was dropping off or cutting into its train. Most likely they would be kept in an engine terminal hot and ready while smaller engines (0-6-0's, first gen diesels, etc.) do the yard work; then the big engine is moved from the terminal and cut directly onto the finished train.