I have two questions...
First, why did SP never give the PAs the Black Widow scheme?
Second, were PAs ever used in freight service?
Third, what were the purpose of the very large lights the SP used on some diesels and what types of units had them? (I recently saw a HO brass SP U50 with such a light)
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Steven, SP's pure passenger power (E units and PAs) was delivered in the daylight scheme due to its popularity with the traveling public of the late 1940/early 1950 era. The daylight paint was SP's version of Santa Fe's warbonnet or NYC's lightning stripes. In 1958 SP painted E-9s 6048 and 6050 in the black widow scheme but, like the halloween scheme, this experiment met with disfavor. It was all a moot point anyway because the bloody nose scheme was instituted in late 1958 and the rest is history. The use of any SP passenger power in freight service is doubtful when you consider SP's territory and their penchant for coupling everything except the yard office, between the power and the caboose. On question three, as far as I can find there were no "large" lights on the three U-50s. Are you referring to the large "ashcan" warning lights as found on the FM switchers, SD-7/GP-9/SD-9 etc? They were Mars lights just like the one found on 4-8-4 4449. They were later replaced by Pyle Gyralights.
I'm talking about the ashcan lights.
Did the SP have FAs?
SP did not have any FA/FBs. Suggest you become familiar with www.sphts.org and www.espee.railfan.net. If you are looking for ashcans, check Details Associates and Details West in HO.
And a less than ideal configuration of the locos, too, A-A-B.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NWP SWPI'm talking about the ashcan lights.
I always wondered why the Western Pacific bought their early Geeps with the big "Ashcan" headlights. Maybe they had a huge stock of Edison-base headlamp bulbs and didn't want to spend money on the sealed-beams?
WPgeep729 by Edmund, on Flickr
They just look a little... odd out there.
Cheers, Ed
So theoretically a PA/PB set could be painted in black widow, theoretically...
The big old Ashcan Mars were installed on hood units only? Could they have been seen on covered wagons, or steam?
It is your railroad, do what you want, but theoretically, no, there would not be a SP PA in the black widow scheme.
OK, too bad, I still might paint one up in that scheme one day...
gmpullman NWP SWP I'm talking about the ashcan lights. I always wondered why the Western Pacific bought their early Geeps with the big "Ashcan" headlights. Maybe they had a huge stock of Edison-base headlamp bulbs and didn't want to spend money on the sealed-beams? WPgeep729 by Edmund, on Flickr They just look a little... odd out there. Cheers, Ed
NWP SWP I'm talking about the ashcan lights.
The headlights came from retired steam locomotives.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
No reason for the big ash can Mars light on an F unit - see the black widow ones, the upper light IS a Mars light. The lower one that is on is the regular headlight. Fairly common setup for F units from other roads as well (excpet mine - they were far too cheap to spring for all those fancy extra warning lights and flashers. Reading F units has one headlight, and that's it).
WP requested the single bulb Pyle-National headlights on their GP-7/9/20/35s and first two orders of the GP-40. According to "Western Pacific Diesel Years" by Joseph A. Strapac, somewhat tongue in cheek, it is written a WP purchasing agent got a real bargain on the bulbs in boxcar load lots. As time passed and possibly all of the bulbs were exhausted, the barrel lights were replaced with regular twin sealed beams. On the GP-35s and GP-40s, because the headlights were mounted between the numberboards, Translite conversion plates similar to Detail Associates offering were used. Elsewhere in North America, Canadian National also opted for Pyle-Nationals or a reasonal facsimile thereof on their 42 inch gauge GMD built NF-210 end cab roadswitchers as well as their GP-7s. I wonder how good that bargain on the bulbs was because, the Pyle-National barrel on a WP GP-20 was an additional $165.00 option.
Steven, although they could be used in freight service (some roads did use them for fast freight service) EMD E's and ALCO FA's were geared for speed with freer-rolling passenger cars. Freight cars, at least in the "transition years," used friction bearings, which produced more drag, particularly when starting. (We soon learned not to say something wasn't so, as somebody would promptly dig out a picture of whatever it was, proving us wrong. Better safe than sorry, but I read the above information in Model Railroader years ago.)
Deano
Nothing is absolute in railroading, the instant someone says "Railroad X never did Y", someone else will find a photo proving them wrong. But in general - a passenger geared loco wouldn;t be able to start as heavy a freight train as a freight geared loco - and woe if there were any significant grades to climb.
Some railroads did get away with it, on a regular basis. But I'm guessing that because their passenger trains ran with frequent stops, they didn't have the high speed gearing of a longer distance passenger loco because acceleration from the frequent stops was the key factor in maintaining the schedule. Such a loco would be geared more like a freight loco, and so could handle freight trains with ease.
Interestingly enough, the SP painted the PAs into the bloody nose scheme
Starting in 1958 the Cotton Belt's spare PA-1 would make turns on freight trains between Pine Bluff and Memphis. There are photos of the Daylight painted PA-1 operating in a mixed consist at Kentucky Street in Memphis.
I might be mistaken, but I believe the New Haven used their DL-109 engines for passenger trains in the daytime, and for freight at night. The DL-109s were purchased for passenger service.
This was during WWII, so anything is possible.
Steven, its your money and, your railroad so, if you want to paint PAs in black widow, go for it! Enjoying the hobby is what it is all about. If you do paint the units, some detail options you might wish to consider if such is important to you. All PA/PBs delivered to Southern Pacific proper had dynamic brakes-those delivered to the Cotton Belt and, the Texas and New Orleans did not have d/b. The Cotton Belt units were delivered without Mars lights so, the headlight was mounted in the grilled nose instead of in the nose door like the T&NO and the SP units. Lots of modeling opportunites here, have fun.
SP 6203 (the lead unit) is an F-7 with 65:12 gearing for passenger service. True freight gearing for EMD was 62:15. The gearing did not mean that 6203 could not be used in freight service, it just could not get out and lug with the freighters on say, Paisano Pass, Stein's Hill, Beaumont Hill or any other of SP's gut-busters. Most western roads preferred high geared F's to E's and other A1A power because the weight wasted on that idler axle could be put to use in adhesion and tractive effort, both very useful in mountainous territory. The A1A truck was fine in giving a smoother ride at high speeds in flat-land running where the track was also straighter than in the mountains. Most western roads (ATSF, SP, WP, GN, NP, D&RGW and to a degree, UP) chose four axle power for their western trains. Those that did use A1A trucked units ran them in herds of 3 to 5 units (10000 or more h.p.) Another reason B-B trucked units were favored by the roads with mountains to climb was dynamic braking. EMD did not offer it on their E-7 and only SP, UP, Milwaukee, and, Southern opted for it on their E-8s and E-9s. Some might point out the A1A trucked Alco PA was relatively well received out west-ATSF, SP, UP and even D&RGW. The PA had two things in its favor the EMD did not-dynamic braking and the GE 752 traction motor. This is why after their passenger hauling days were over, they moved right into freight service on many roads that owned them.
SouthPenn I might be mistaken, but I believe the New Haven used their DL-109 engines for passenger trains in the daytime, and for freight at night. The DL-109s were purchased for passenger service. This was during WWII, so anything is possible.
But the New Haven was an anomally, in that they made many stops between NY and Boston and the line was not a very high speed line due it's many sharp curves between those two points, the DL-109 had a lower gear ratio so they could start heavy passenger trains quickly rather than a higher gear ratio that allowed higher sustained speeds on straight track. So the DL-109's were equally at home in freight or passenger service.
The New Haven EP-5 (jets) Electrics, were the same way and when the PC tried to use them on long distance fast passenger trains on the Coorridor they had numerous problems including fires and failures. They worked on the New Haven but not the PC off of the NY to Boston run.
The BAR after passenger service ended rebuilt their E7's with freight gear ratios so they could be used in freight service.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
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rrinkerBut in general - a passenger geared loco wouldn;t be able to start as heavy a freight train as a freight geared loco - and woe if there were any significant grades to climb.
Randy,The E-L went one step farther and regeared some E8s for freight service.
A lot of modelers and some railfans fully believe these E8s retain their passenger gearing which of course they did not.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/418447/
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"