I occasionally see photos of steamers with more than one tender in tow. I would think that in preparing a tender for such a lash-up, a railroad would have to do at least three mods: 1) replace the draw bar with a coupler, 2) install pass-through hosing/piping for the water carried by the aft tender, and 3) rework the front end of the aft tender for accessing the air and possible steam from the one in front.
Are there any special or specific requirements for these mods (pumps, valves, fittings, etc.) that would be unique? I'm presuming that ganging the tenders together would not require significant mods for lights.
Close-up photos of the business areas of these lash-ups would be nice. On the other hand, my momma always said that "beggars can't be choosers"!
John
OP NOTE: I have deleted the reference to the possibility of the aux tender carrying fuel based on the first response below. Thanks, Randy.
When a second tender is used, it is almost always JUST water. A steam loco will typically use water faster than fuel, be it coal or oil. Especially in modern times when there are few is any standing water towers (other than on steam tourist railroads), having enough water is extremely critical. Low water is what causes boiler explosions.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I believe auxiliary tenders are 100% water, no fuel.
.
This brings to mind many more questions that I am curious about.
1) Why did the railroads not just use modified tank cars?
2) Why didn't desert roads (ATSF) use these in the 20s and 30s, or did they?
3) Do auxilary tenders require "booster" pump to move the water forward?
Thanks.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 This brings to mind many more questions that I am curious about. 2) Why didn't desert roads (ATSF) use these in the 20s and 30s, or did they?. -Kevin
2) Why didn't desert roads (ATSF) use these in the 20s and 30s, or did they?.
To expand on Kevin's seciond question, just how common were auxiliary tenders in the Steam or Transition Era - before they became necessary for restored locos being used on longer "heritage" operations?
SeeYou190 I believe auxiliary tenders are 100% water, no fuel....
I believe auxiliary tenders are 100% water, no fuel....
U.P.'s steam excursion locos have auxiliary tenders that carry fuel and water, I believe.
SeeYou190 ....This brings to mind many more questions that I am curious about. 1) Why did the railroads not just use modified tank cars?
....This brings to mind many more questions that I am curious about.
I believe that some of them did...I recall seeing photos of CNR steam on the western prairies with modified tank cars as auxiliary tenders. I can't comment on Santa Fe's practices, but it sounds logical.
SeeYou190 .....3) Do auxilary tenders require "booster" pump to move the water forward?
.....3) Do auxilary tenders require "booster" pump to move the water forward?
No, as the locomotive uses water, the level in both tenders goes down - they're connected by hoses, just as a regular tender is connected to the locomotive. Both tenders would have shut-off valves for those connecting hoses, as they do for the tender hoses connected to the locomotive.
I have a Bachmann USRA 2-6-6-2 that came with the USRA "long" tender. It wouldn't fit on my 90' turntable (actually only 89' long due to lack of sufficient layout real estate). I managed to shorten the locomotive somewhat by lopping-off a couple of feet at the rear of the firebox...
.....(surprisingly, it doesn't seem to have affected steam production), but it was still too long.I then shortened the tender, and at the same time, increased the size of the coal bunker...
The two round thingies on the rear of the cistern deck are wells for the shut-off valves between this one and the auxiliary tender - they're done in this manner so that if the water overflows from the filler hatch during filling operations in the winter, the water won't run into the wells and freeze, making the shut-offs inoperable. The covers supposedly lift off, and the fireman or hostler can use a long-handled wrench, kept in the toolbox behind the coal bunker, to open or close the valves.
The auxiliary tender is a modified MDC coal tender. Its front end has a coupler and has been modified with a brake wheel, too, as the brakes would need to be set when the tender is disconnected...
I put all-wheel pick-up on both tenders, and used the wires between the two tenders and between the locomotive and the main tender, to represent the water hoses.Here's the auxiliary tender, ready for paint. The shut-offs for the hoses on this tender are atop the step-downs, both sides, at the front of the tender...
...and the connections between tenders...
...and the locomotive in-service...
Wayne
There's at least one Doctor that still makes "house calls". And he always has a full bag to care for the current malady. Thanks, Wayne. And Kevin, too.
Where have you guys been?
Great video BigJim. Nothing but power. I'm amazed at the coordination it took, as each loco has to have a crew.
How did they communicate with each other? Oops,
Mike.
My You Tube
The B&O used auxiliary tenders on some of their Mikes, maybe others. They looked like beefed-up tank cars.
IMG_8556_fix2 by Edmund, on Flickr
I saw some published photos of PRR steam, mostly I1sa using big auxiliary tenders, too. I made this one from a spare 210F75 tender I had on hand.
IMG_9704_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
IMG_9692_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
In hindsight I probably should have removed the doghouse, but... well, it looks
After I finished the project I had stumbled across these photos and was suprized at how close I guessed to closing off the coal space. I didn't mount the air-brake equipment on the deck but I did add a handbrake after seeing the photos.
http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/tenderFrame1Source1.htm
Further discussion about auxiliary tenders here:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/261054/2936676.aspx
Regards, Ed
SeeYou190 1) Why did the railroads not just use modified tank cars?
A reason why they would TEND not to use modified tank cars is that they likely had some tenders available from locomotives going to scrap. Locomotives weren't just scrapped at the end of steam. They were always being scrapped, from the very beginning. And if you have a perfectly good water container for free, why take a money earning tank car out of service for the task?
Bet you didn't know Great Northern was a "desert" road. In the case below, the desert is the lava beds in northern California.
But, as far as Santa Fe, I don't know. Since ATSF wasn't particularly known for auxiliary tenders, I would think it's because they found enough water on the way.
Ed
(1) GMP pointed out the B&O's use of purpose-built auxiliary tanks, but B&O also used conventional tank cars for the purpose. I believe I have also seen pictures of tank cars used in this way on other roads. I believe unmodified tank cars had a disadvantage. In general, tank cars were operated either empty or full (or nearly full). Partial loads were rare unless the car had multiple chambers. When the liquid is partly depleted, it can slosh around, making the car unstable. Tenders or purpose-built cars would probably be preferred because they have have baffles inside to minimize this.
(2) I believe I have seen pictures from the 30's and 40's showing this being done on Southwestern roads. I think T&P was doing it at an eaerly date, but can't provide details.
(3) The tender was drained by gravity. It flowed from the tender(s) to the engine via pipes mounted low. The water was raised into the boiler by the injector.
Tom
Thanks for the string, Ed.
mbinsewiHow did they communicate with each other? Oops,
Whistle signals.
http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/whistle-signals
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
The Rio Grande used cast-off tenders from older power on several narrowgauge lines, notably the one down to Farmington, NM from Durango. These were also used in MOW operations to support steam-powered equipment like pile drivers and, in heavily modded form, rotary snow plows. There were a few cases where breakdowns and isoolated locations made hauling water in via old tenders, etc served isolated stations. Once you have a case for tenders behind your steam, consider they were part of an entire eco-system of water supply.
The Uintah also used such behind their road power on their isolated line in NW Colorado running north from Mack.
Rio Grande standard gauge steamers used auxiliary tenders that were modified old tank cars.
Part of this equation was maintenance of water facilities. These were originally spaced to deal with small tenders of early power. As steam increased in size, so did the tenders, which also allowed some further reduction in tanks and stand pipes. Eventually, it was easier and cheaper to just haul the extra water as the Rio Grande did its best to divest its narrowgauge routes.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The DM&IR used converted tank cars for extra water during the 1950s.
If a railroad burned oil instead of coal, it could rebuild it's auxilliary tenders to haul both water and oil I'd think. However a second tender was most commonly used just to provide additional water. Steam engines use a lot of water, so a train might have to stop for water several times on a trip without needing to stop for more coal. Using an auxilliary water tender could eliminate some of those stops.
BigJim Where have you guys been?
It's hard to imagine that they'd make any money doing that...three crews and almost as much coal going up the stacks as was going up the hill in hoppers.
Would've loved to have seen and heard it in person.
I'm planning on buying an AC-12 from Intermountain along with an additional tender for it. I know, I know the SP never did such a thing. Well that's the perks of being a proto-freelancer I can break the rules here and there.
I plan on removing the coupler on the first tender, sliding the drawbar of the second into the pocket and screwing it in. Luckily I do not have a turntable to worry about.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
NWP SWP I'm planning on buying an AC-12 from Intermountain along with an additional tender for it. I know, I know the SP never did such a thing. Well that's the perks of being a proto-freelancer I can break the rules here and there. I plan on removing the coupler on the first tender, sliding the drawbar of the second into the pocket and screwing it in. Luckily I do not have a turntable to worry about.
Well I'm going to only do that till I'm more experienced with building coupler pockets. (A skill Casey (club president) is going to teach me with some old pennsy fleet of modernism cars I have laying around.)
Also Rod is going to teach me how to install decoders when I get a brass SP-2 or AC-9 or build my 4-8-8-4T with dual auxiliary tenders. (Yes his first name is Rod no his last name is not Stewart)
AttuvianThat the second draw bar will begin to bug you after a while.
Double draw bars are a BAD idea. I had an ABA set of FTs that were all drawbar connected. Handling the models, and even placing them back onto the rails was very difficult.
Two things I just realized. 1 the drawbar is on the locomotive on my BLI T1 does anyone know Intermountains drawbar location?
2 in otter to have operating lights I have to put the DCC equipped tender last and have pass through connections on the non DCC extra tender, right?
Not to veer too far off topic - but that is an AMAZING build of a 2-6-6-2!
- Kevin
Check out my shapeways creations! HOn3 and railroad items for 3D printing:
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/kevin-s-model-train-detail-parts
In a book about the Southern Pacific across Arizona/New Mexico to Texas, there is a photo of an early freight train. It was 7-8 cars long. More than half carried water for the locomotive.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
NWP SWP I have to put the DCC equipped tender last and have pass through connections on the non DCC extra tender, right?
Not necessarily...
Why not keep the original tender right behind the locomotive and not mess with trying to make up new jumper plugs. All my BLI engines have 7 or 9 pin jumper plugs and the less I have to mess with them the better. If you don't get them seated properly you get intermittent electrical performance.
Also, the sound will be more believeable if the speaker is closer to the engine. If the sound is coming out of the auxiliary tender it will be about a hundred fifty feet away from the stack.
Why not place a function-only decoder in the auxiliary tender and use it to control the back-up light? You could even use other lighting outputs for markers. You can program it to the same address as the engine and set the back-up light to come on only in reverse.
Alternately, you could get one of Soundtraxx "SoundCar" decoders. You'll get light functions and get some fun sound effects, too.
http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/soundcar/soundcar.php
Function only decoders can be had for under $20. You could then use the auxiliary tender on other locomotives and still have independent lighting control.
Have Fun,
How bout add speakers to the DC tender?
NWP SWPHow bout add speakers to the DC tender?
Sure, you can do that within the amplifier output specs of the decoder:
http://mrdccu.com/curriculum/speakers.html
Good Luck, Ed
Sounds like a plan then... I will post project updates in my General Discussion thread "Intermountain AC-12 Long Distance Service Version Auxiliary Tender Kitbash"