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Were ALL PRR steam locomotives "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?

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Were ALL PRR steam locomotives "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?
Posted by cefinkjr on Saturday, November 04, 2017 12:29 PM

Real quick question: Were ALL PRR steam locomotives painted "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?  I suspect they were, that was just the Pennsy way of doing things, but were there any major exceptions?

Chuck
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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, November 04, 2017 1:24 PM

One prime exception was the single, Loewy styled K4s No. 3768 which, if I have it correct, was painted in a metallic bronze color. It was later repainted in DGLE, possibly by 1940.

In later years there were a few GG1s, E7s and even a SW1, among others, painted in Tuscan Red.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by tstage on Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:39 PM

Sometimes known as "Brunswick Green"...

http://www.newyorkcentralmodeling.com

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Posted by ndbprr on Saturday, November 04, 2017 3:38 PM

That can be a touchy question. the PRRT&HS is a stickler for accuracy which means if the PRR documentation that exists does not cover the topic it can not be verified.  There is some reference to up to 5 K4s painted tuscan but the above mentioned accuracy issue precludes definitive proof.  If you want to go way back to the era of 4-4-0 engines that came with merged in railroads anything is possoble.  Unfortunately it is not until after WW2 that color film became available to the general public. so color picturesof 1940s anything during the war are almost nonexistant.  You think security is tough now.  Any time someone say's the standard railroad of the world had a hard and fast standard someone else will come up with an exception so it remains plauable but even if proof does show up 5 engines out of 10,000 is a pretty small sample.

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Posted by cefinkjr on Saturday, November 04, 2017 6:07 PM

gmpullman
In later years there were a few GG1s, E7s and even a SW1, among others, painted in Tuscan Red.

I thought that streamline K4 (didn't recall the number though) was "off-color".  I had thought it was Tuscan but you may be right.

I knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan (before PC) but didn't know about the SW1.  As a matter of fact, the Tuscan "five whisker" paint scheme was my all time favorite paint scheme.

I've got a follow on question though: What about steam locomotive frames?  I'm about to add some detail to a BLI L1s (trailing truck supports) that will require extending the model's frame.  Somehow, I don't think Cal-Scale brass on white styrene is going to look right.  Should I paint all of that black or DGLE?

Chuck
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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, November 04, 2017 7:09 PM

cefinkjr
I knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan

Not quite ALL...

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

For steam locomotive painting, I have a small booklet concerning the painting of PRR locomotives and tenders published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (a precursor to the PRRT&HS)

In it is stated that Dark green and black were both used for locomotive frames and wheels. Trailing truck frames were green.

Further, the pilot, pilot beam (wood), cylinder head and steam chest, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket including inside cab, headlight, bell frame, sand box, steam dome, air reservoirs, running board facing, cab exterior, valve motion, (painted parts), tender cistern exterior, sides, back and front end, also molding strip between cistern and frame and wood tender frame were all DGLE.

Black paint was applied to: Steel pilot beam and braces, round number plate background, engine truck, (except wheels), frame and braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets, steps, pipes and fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space.

Cab roof above rain gutters was mixture of equal parts freight car color and black.

Smoke stack, smokebox, exposed firebox and ash pan were painted front-end color.

Interior cab, medium green.

Tender top of cistern, freight car color.

There is more discussion on the appearance of these colors.

Perhaps I can send you a copy of this in an email if you'd like.

cefinkjr
but didn't know about the SW1

Ouch! I guess I didn't get the SW-1 right... it was a Baldwin VO-1000 that was painted Tuscan Red Embarrassed No. 5916 to be exact. I had to dig out a few PRR books to refresh my memory.

 

Good Luck, Ed

 

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Posted by cefinkjr on Saturday, November 04, 2017 10:46 PM

gmpullman
gmpullman wrote the following post 3 hours ago: cefinkjrI knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan Not quite ALL... http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

Maybe, just maybe, if I live another 75 years, I'll learn not to say "ALL". 5863 (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166)  is clearly an E-7 and 583? (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001) is an E-8.  They are certainly not Tuscan.  Embarrassed 

While we're on the subject of diseasels, were the Baldwin shark nose passenger units (BP20) DGLE or Tuscan.  There are three paint schemes shown in Pennsy Power II, but all are B&W and I don't recall ever seeing one in the flesh. 

Chuck
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:27 AM

What color was the K4 that was streamlined for the Jeffersonian?

Quote from Classic Trains said the ‘bronze’ originally on 3768 was Tuscan ‘with a little yellow and some gold flakes mixed in to warm it up’.  Might be interesting to compare with the metalflake paint on the N&W Redbirds...

 

 

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Posted by dti406 on Monday, November 06, 2017 10:14 AM

cefinkjr
 
gmpullman
gmpullman wrote the following post 3 hours ago: cefinkjrI knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan Not quite ALL... http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

 

Maybe, just maybe, if I live another 75 years, I'll learn not to say "ALL". 5863 (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166)  is clearly an E-7 and 583? (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001) is an E-8.  They are certainly not Tuscan.  Embarrassed 

While we're on the subject of diseasels, were the Baldwin shark nose passenger units (BP20) DGLE or Tuscan.  There are three paint schemes shown in Pennsy Power II, but all are B&W and I don't recall ever seeing one in the flesh. 

 

The E-7's, Sharks, PA's, Centipedes, were all delivered in DGLE with the five stripe scheme and then repainted.

Rick Jesionowski

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Posted by dti406 on Monday, November 06, 2017 3:10 PM

ndbprr

That can be a touchy question. the PRRT&HS is a stickler for accuracy which means if the PRR documentation that exists does not cover the topic it can not be verified.  There is some reference to up to 5 K4s painted tuscan but the above mentioned accuracy issue precludes definitive proof.  Unfortunately it is not until after WW2 that color film became available to the general public. so color picturesof 1940s anything during the war are almost nonexistant.  You think security is tough now.  Any time someone say's the standard railroad of the world had a hard and fast standard someone else will come up with an exception so it remains plauable but even if proof does show up 5 engines out of 10,000 is a pretty small sample.

I remember this coming up on the PRR Yahoo Group, the Stauffer book stated there were 10 K4's painted Tuscan back in the 20's, the historians came back with about 3 painted Tuscan, and it was a very simplified scheme without the fancy striping, but as modelers we sometimes vary from the prototype.

Rick Jesionowski

Rule 1: This is my railroad.

Rule 2: I make the rules.

Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!

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Posted by wobblinwheel on Friday, November 10, 2017 1:28 AM

About four years ago, I got the nice guys at BLI to find me a short tender for my "old" PCM (first-run) I1sa, which came with the long tender. It was clearly a newer release, as it was BLACK, compared to the old one! I started dribbling a little olive green into some flat black, and got it to match pretty good. With appropriate weathering, it looks perfect! Has BLI darkened their later Pennsy locos?

Mike C.

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Posted by gmpullman on Friday, November 10, 2017 2:21 AM

Hi, Mike

Take a look at these three BLI Pennsy steamers. The Turbine looks considerably more like a mossy green.

 IMG_2915_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

There's been lots of discussion over DGLE among modelers. I think BLI was relying on input from the PRR Historical and Technical Society. Under layout lighting, freshly applied Brunswick Green actually looks close to black. Various model railroad manufacturers have portrayed it as anywhere between Penn-Central Deep Water Green to something like Kelly Green.

Weathering would be a good way to even out the color. Most of the Pennsy steam I've seen photos of showed some pretty road-weary locomotives.

Here's an example of fresh, shiny DGLE:

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=167

 

Regards, Ed

 

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, November 10, 2017 8:14 AM

cefinkjr
Real quick question: Were ALL PRR steam locomotives painted "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?

Better would be grimy black with varying drops of light gray and drops of DGLE if you want to be more correct in modeling the PRR..

Larry

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Posted by cefinkjr on Friday, November 10, 2017 11:35 AM

wobblinwheel

About four years ago, I got the nice guys at BLI to find me a short tender for my "old" PCM (first-run) I1sa, which came with the long tender. It was clearly a newer release, as it was BLACK, compared to the old one! I started dribbling a little olive green into some flat black, and got it to match pretty good. With appropriate weathering, it looks perfect! Has BLI darkened their later Pennsy locos? 

The "reconditioned" L1s I bought from BLI in August is noticeably green when you look closely.

But through all of this discussion of how light/dark/mossy/black DGLE was on steam locomotives, I think we ought to realize that two locomotives, both painted DGLE from the same batch of paint, only looked identical when they rolled out of the paint shop side-by-side.  Unless you are modeling Hollidaysburg at a certain moment in time, there will be variations in the color of PRR locomotives.

That said, your I1sa and its tank probably should look like they were once the same color.  On the other hand, I can think of several plausible explanations why they wouldn't.  For example, PRR was notorious for swapping tenders between locomotives, even between classes.  I doubt they were too concerned about matching the colors, particularly on a work horse like an I1sa.

 

 

Chuck
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Posted by wobblinwheel on Friday, November 10, 2017 5:39 PM

The BLI T1 (first run) I have is VERY green. The Paragon 2 K4, and the H10 I have are VERY BLACK!

Mike C.

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