Were ALL PRR steam locomotives "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?

[cefinkjr]

Real quick question: Were ALL PRR steam locomotives painted "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?  I suspect they were, that was just the Pennsy way of doing things, but were there any major exceptions?

[gmpullman]

One prime exception was the single, Loewy styled K4s No. 3768 which, if I have it correct, was painted in a metallic bronze color. It was later repainted in DGLE, possibly by 1940.

In later years there were a few GG1s, E7s and even a SW1, among others, painted in Tuscan Red.

Regards, Ed

[tstage]

Sometimes known as "Brunswick Green"...

[ndbprr]

That can be a touchy question. the PRRT&HS is a stickler for accuracy which means if the PRR documentation that exists does not cover the topic it can not be verified.  There is some reference to up to 5 K4s painted tuscan but the above mentioned accuracy issue precludes definitive proof.  If you want to go way back to the era of 4-4-0 engines that came with merged in railroads anything is possoble.  Unfortunately it is not until after WW2 that color film became available to the general public. so color picturesof 1940s anything during the war are almost nonexistant.  You think security is tough now.  Any time someone say's the standard railroad of the world had a hard and fast standard someone else will come up with an exception so it remains plauable but even if proof does show up 5 engines out of 10,000 is a pretty small sample.

[cefinkjr]

gmpullman

In later years there were a few GG1s, E7s and even a SW1, among others, painted in Tuscan Red.

I thought that streamline K4 (didn't recall the number though) was "off-color".  I had thought it was Tuscan but you may be right.

I knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan (before PC) but didn't know about the SW1.  As a matter of fact, the Tuscan "five whisker" paint scheme was my all time favorite paint scheme.

I've got a follow on question though: What about steam locomotive frames?  I'm about to add some detail to a BLI L1s (trailing truck supports) that will require extending the model's frame.  Somehow, I don't think Cal-Scale brass on white styrene is going to look right.  Should I paint all of that black or DGLE?

[gmpullman]

cefinkjr

I knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan

Not quite ALL...

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

For steam locomotive painting, I have a small booklet concerning the painting of PRR locomotives and tenders published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (a precursor to the PRRT&HS)

In it is stated that Dark green and black were both used for locomotive frames and wheels. Trailing truck frames were green.

Further, the pilot, pilot beam (wood), cylinder head and steam chest, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket including inside cab, headlight, bell frame, sand box, steam dome, air reservoirs, running board facing, cab exterior, valve motion, (painted parts), tender cistern exterior, sides, back and front end, also molding strip between cistern and frame and wood tender frame were all DGLE.

Black paint was applied to: Steel pilot beam and braces, round number plate background, engine truck, (except wheels), frame and braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets, steps, pipes and fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space.

Cab roof above rain gutters was mixture of equal parts freight car color and black.

Smoke stack, smokebox, exposed firebox and ash pan were painted front-end color.

Interior cab, medium green.

Tender top of cistern, freight car color.

There is more discussion on the appearance of these colors.

Perhaps I can send you a copy of this in an email if you'd like.

cefinkjr

but didn't know about the SW1

Ouch! I guess I didn't get the SW-1 right... it was a Baldwin VO-1000 that was painted Tuscan Red  No. 5916 to be exact. I had to dig out a few PRR books to refresh my memory.

 

Good Luck, Ed

 

[cefinkjr]

gmpullman

gmpullman wrote the following post 3 hours ago: cefinkjrI knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan Not quite ALL... http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

Maybe, just maybe, if I live another 75 years, I'll learn not to say "ALL". 5863 (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166)  is clearly an E-7 and 583? (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001) is an E-8.  They are certainly not Tuscan.   

While we're on the subject of diseasels, were the Baldwin shark nose passenger units (BP20) DGLE or Tuscan.  There are three paint schemes shown in Pennsy Power II, but all are B&W and I don't recall ever seeing one in the flesh. 

[Overmod]

What color was the K4 that was streamlined for the Jeffersonian?

Quote from Classic Trains said the ‘bronze’ originally on 3768 was Tuscan ‘with a little yellow and some gold flakes mixed in to warm it up’.  Might be interesting to compare with the metalflake paint on the N&W Redbirds...

 

 

[dti406]

cefinkjr

 

gmpullman

gmpullman wrote the following post 3 hours ago: cefinkjrI knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan Not quite ALL... http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

 

 

Maybe, just maybe, if I live another 75 years, I'll learn not to say "ALL". 5863 (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166)  is clearly an E-7 and 583? (http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001) is an E-8.  They are certainly not Tuscan.   

While we're on the subject of diseasels, were the Baldwin shark nose passenger units (BP20) DGLE or Tuscan.  There are three paint schemes shown in Pennsy Power II, but all are B&W and I don't recall ever seeing one in the flesh. 

 

The E-7's, Sharks, PA's, Centipedes, were all delivered in DGLE with the five stripe scheme and then repainted.

Rick Jesionowski

[dti406]

ndbprr

That can be a touchy question. the PRRT&HS is a stickler for accuracy which means if the PRR documentation that exists does not cover the topic it can not be verified.  There is some reference to up to 5 K4s painted tuscan but the above mentioned accuracy issue precludes definitive proof.  Unfortunately it is not until after WW2 that color film became available to the general public. so color picturesof 1940s anything during the war are almost nonexistant.  You think security is tough now.  Any time someone say's the standard railroad of the world had a hard and fast standard someone else will come up with an exception so it remains plauable but even if proof does show up 5 engines out of 10,000 is a pretty small sample.

I remember this coming up on the PRR Yahoo Group, the Stauffer book stated there were 10 K4's painted Tuscan back in the 20's, the historians came back with about 3 painted Tuscan, and it was a very simplified scheme without the fancy striping, but as modelers we sometimes vary from the prototype.

Rick Jesionowski

[wobblinwheel]

About four years ago, I got the nice guys at BLI to find me a short tender for my "old" PCM (first-run) I1sa, which came with the long tender. It was clearly a newer release, as it was BLACK, compared to the old one! I started dribbling a little olive green into some flat black, and got it to match pretty good. With appropriate weathering, it looks perfect! Has BLI darkened their later Pennsy locos?

[gmpullman]

Hi, Mike

Take a look at these three BLI Pennsy steamers. The Turbine looks considerably more like a mossy green.

IMG_2915_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

There's been lots of discussion over DGLE among modelers. I think BLI was relying on input from the PRR Historical and Technical Society. Under layout lighting, freshly applied Brunswick Green actually looks close to black. Various model railroad manufacturers have portrayed it as anywhere between Penn-Central Deep Water Green to something like Kelly Green.

Weathering would be a good way to even out the color. Most of the Pennsy steam I've seen photos of showed some pretty road-weary locomotives.

Here's an example of fresh, shiny DGLE:

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=167

 

Regards, Ed

 

[BRAKIE]

cefinkjr

Real quick question: Were ALL PRR steam locomotives painted "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" in the 1940s?

Better would be grimy black with varying drops of light gray and drops of DGLE if you want to be more correct in modeling the PRR..

[cefinkjr]

wobblinwheel

About four years ago, I got the nice guys at BLI to find me a short tender for my "old" PCM (first-run) I1sa, which came with the long tender. It was clearly a newer release, as it was BLACK, compared to the old one! I started dribbling a little olive green into some flat black, and got it to match pretty good. With appropriate weathering, it looks perfect! Has BLI darkened their later Pennsy locos? 

The "reconditioned" L1s I bought from BLI in August is noticeably green when you look closely.

But through all of this discussion of how light/dark/mossy/black DGLE was on steam locomotives, I think we ought to realize that two locomotives, both painted DGLE from the same batch of paint, only looked identical when they rolled out of the paint shop side-by-side.  Unless you are modeling Hollidaysburg at a certain moment in time, there will be variations in the color of PRR locomotives.

That said, your I1sa and its tank probably should look like they were once the same color.  On the other hand, I can think of several plausible explanations why they wouldn't.  For example, PRR was notorious for swapping tenders between locomotives, even between classes.  I doubt they were too concerned about matching the colors, particularly on a work horse like an I1sa.

 

 

[wobblinwheel]

The BLI T1 (first run) I have is VERY green. The Paragon 2 K4, and the H10 I have are VERY BLACK!

[Uncle_Bob]

gmpullman

 

 

cefinkjr

I knew some GG1s and all E-units were Tuscan

 

 

Not quite ALL...

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=166

http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=2001

For steam locomotive painting, I have a small booklet concerning the painting of PRR locomotives and tenders published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (a precursor to the PRRT&HS)

In it is stated that Dark green and black were both used for locomotive frames and wheels. Trailing truck frames were green.

Further, the pilot, pilot beam (wood), cylinder head and steam chest, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket including inside cab, headlight, bell frame, sand box, steam dome, air reservoirs, running board facing, cab exterior, valve motion, (painted parts), tender cistern exterior, sides, back and front end, also molding strip between cistern and frame and wood tender frame were all DGLE.

Black paint was applied to: Steel pilot beam and braces, round number plate background, engine truck, (except wheels), frame and braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets, steps, pipes and fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space.

Cab roof above rain gutters was mixture of equal parts freight car color and black.

Smoke stack, smokebox, exposed firebox and ash pan were painted front-end color.

Interior cab, medium green.

Tender top of cistern, freight car color.

There is more discussion on the appearance of these colors.

Perhaps I can send you a copy of this in an email if you'd like.

 

 

cefinkjr

but didn't know about the SW1

 

 

Ouch! I guess I didn't get the SW-1 right... it was a Baldwin VO-1000 that was painted Tuscan Red  No. 5916 to be exact. I had to dig out a few PRR books to refresh my memory.

 

Good Luck, Ed

 

 

A picture in the Don Ball book, PRR 1940s and 1950s, shows a down-on view of the front of a T1.  The interior of the stack is clearly FCC, with streaks of soot.  I'd tell you the page and the locomotive number, but MOH parked  bunch of Christmas decorations in front of my bookshelves so they're inaccessible right now.

[ACY Tom]

Prior to August 11, 1952, the PRR's standard color for all locomotives was DGLE. A few exceptions have been noted, but were not numerous enough to count for much in PRR's vast fleet. On August 11, 1952, PRR adopted Tuscan as the standard color for passenger diesel cab units only. Gold leaf lettering was replaced with buff at that time.

Tom