While reading a historical Magazine on the N&W the author of one of the articles seemed to state that he had to work basically for free while apprenticing the brakeman position. It was not real clear to me if that was what he was saying.
Question - Did the men have to work for free when learning the trade ?
I'm not sure what era you are referencing but "back in the day" it wasn't uncommon for men to have to perform several familiarization trips for free before being allowed to assume those jobs for pay on the seniority list. As such it was beneficial for them to try to make as many trips as possible back to back so they could get signed off and on the seniority list. Each man had to have the recommendation of the person he was working for (engineer, conductor, etc) and had to complete the trips before they could become a paid working employee. Seems harsh in this day of wimp ways of doing things but it was the norm for many years.
I believe working employees had to do a similar thing when wanting to work other divisions or service too.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
yougottawanta basically for free
This could mean that almost all of his pay while being an apprentice went to expenses like room and board which were paid back to the railroad. They called railroad owners and other (greedy businessman) captitalists The Great Robber Barons for a reason.
Or maybe like some other industries like the entertainment industry you are expected to work for free to pay your dues to get experience before getting a paid job.
Sounds a bit like your work pays for your training. Life was not as easy then, sometimes much too easy these days.
Have fun,
Richard
yougottawanta While reading a historical Magazine on the N&W the author of one of the articles seemed to state that he had to work basically for free while apprenticing the brakeman position. It was not real clear to me if that was what he was saying. Question - Did the men have to work for free when learning the trade ?
No.. They start you out at half the Union pay and after you completed your safety and operation rule classes you begin your student brakeman training and 30 days after successfully completing your training you had to join the Brotherhood for full pay.
You had no seniority so,to the extra board you went and being a rookie brakeman didn't earn you any extra points with the crew you worked with. You had to prove yourself before you was accepted as a qualified brakeman. I was told by several conductors they had no time to hold a rookie's hand and I better dang well know what I was doing. Thankfully 90% of the crews I worked with was a little more lenient. Still it took around six months to work your way into their "acceptance" club.
All to sadly once I became a seasoned brakeman I also hated to work with a rookie.
I'll past this along.. There was a PRR engineer that kept back a tidy sum of his pay and when his wife ask why his check was light he told her the road no longer pays us for hauling empties.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't know about railroad practices, but apprentince electricians start off at 60% of the journeyman rate, and receive 5% inclreases every six months until they reach journeyman status.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Back in the late 60s, I hired on as a fireman for Chicago northwesrern,out of Green Bay. I don't recall how mutch, but I got paid from hour 1.
Was on the board,had to sit by the phone less you missed the call.The part that really bothered me was the entire crew threated you like less then dirt. The engener would't talk to me mutch less tell or teach . Were some awlful long trips just sitting ther not knowing what I should be doing and afrade to ask.
I only lasted about 8 mounts and got fed up with the hostle envirorment. I often wondered if it was a local union thing or if all roads ran like that.
I will say that I did pull a nice guy to switch the yard with one day, I learned a lot and was the only day I really enjoyed going to work. He even let me run the engine for a while
Most of my working life, my co-workers were just fine. Or better. But one time, my workmates seemed to be mostly jerks. I asked my dad if he thought I ought to talk to the big guy. He said that it sorta starts at the top and works down. So not to waste my time.
It seems like sometimes management just sorta generates a "hostile work environment". And sometimes (frequently, in my case) it generates a "really good work environment".
But, man, I was glad to get outa there.
Ed
Now, keep in mind that when I was marked up, I received full pay! Today, the men have to go to school for so many weeks, come back to some on the job training and then back to school. On top of this they start out at a reduced rate of pay that only increases 5% every so many years until they get to full pay.
I'd say that I made out like a king!
.
Thanks for all of thE replies. It seems that the rules were different depending on which RR, which crew and which era one worked in. Is that correct ?
YGW
BigJimYes, indeed this WAS correct, but, not now.When I started on the road, I had to make five qualifying trips with no pay before getting marked up on the extra list.
im,When was that? When I hired out on the PRR in '66 I received around 50% of the Union scale of the time and after joining the Brotherhood I got a nice increase to scale starting rate-IIRC around 75 or 80% with wage increases twice a year. When I hired on the Chessie the training pay was around 40% and once on the board it jump to 80% starting scale.
Even less then full scale I still made a hefty paycheck.
The only classes I had to attend was safety and operation classes and once I passed the tests I started OJT even on the Chessie but,being experience the crews I worked with was more relaxed since all I needed as one conductor put it "was a good dusting and I would be good to go".
BRAKIEWhen was that?
Back in the day, brakemen and firemen made their student trips without pay. Their seniority date was their first paid trip when marked up.
Their was an article in Trains in the early 1970s (1973 I think) about a guy who hired out on the GN. He said he had to hustle (HOS didn't apply to him) to get in his student trips (brakeman) in and get marked up to get his seniority date ahead of another guy.
Today I would say the only non-payed students are volunteers on tourist railroads.
Jeff
BigJim BRAKIE When was that? 1973
BRAKIE When was that?
1973
Thanks Jim!
I guess as a new hire I got over like a fat rat.
yougottawanta Thanks for all of thE replies. It seems that the rules were different depending on which RR, which crew and which era one worked in. Is that correct ?
To a large degree that is correct. There are national agreements that cover the basics, then individual railroads can negoiate rules that apply to that railroad, individual crew districts can negoiate agreements that apply only to their district and so forth on down the line. Railroad labor agreements never expire per se, they are modified. An agreement in the 1990's might have certain provisions written in the 1920's that might apply.
The mergers made it even more interesting. The MP had about a dozen different agreements for conductors operating in and out of all the routes into Houston.
On a train between Kansas City and St Louis there might be former MP, former MKT and former SSW crews all with slightly different agreements.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
It seems to me just within the last couple of issues that Classic Trains mag had a story from a guy who talked about being able to make his three unpaid student trips within a one or two day period, I think it was as a fireman but could be wrong.
BTW, I doubt any railroads do it now - or have done it for some time - but at one time railroads gave employees a "pie card". Some railroads gave it to you as soon as you were hired, so even someone making unpaid student trips could use it; on some you had to work there a certain amount of time before getting one. It allowed you to eat meals for free, the diner or restaurant charged the company for your meal. Some railroads only had designated places you could eat, but I guess in some areas you could eat most anywhere. Apparently some RR unions kept some 'extra' cards on hand that new hires could use until they were given their own - if they weren't given their own right away.
wjstixSome railroads only had designated places you could eat, but I guess in some areas you could eat most anywhere.
When I hired on the PRR the company paid for one meal at your away terminal's Railroad YMCA "Home of the greasy food".
On the Chessie it was one meal at your away terminal at the RRYMCA. Should you work a turn better bring your own. If you worked a yard job or the shops your meal came out of your pocket.
A side note.One free meal may not be enough if you're 15th out which could be up to a 16-17 hour layover. It paid to have some cash on you. I usually carried around $15-20.00 per trip.
BRAKIEWhen I hired on the PRR the company paid for one meal at your away terminal's Railroad YMCA "Home of the greasy food".
Brings back memories! Actually, most of the food seemed to be pretty good!
Thank You, Come Again...
Ed,I haven't seen one of those in years.. I notice there's no biscuits and gravy on that menu.
The Crestline RRYMCA had great food and their K4 breakfast was tops that was two eggs,with ham or sausage,home fries with toast or biscuits.
Their biscuits and gravy was delicious as was their coconut cream pie..Their apple pie has large slices of apples.
My wife and I would go there every chance we got plus CR ran around 120 trains a day through Crestline.
Today the Y's gone and CSX runs maybe 40 trains a day.