Hello,
My main question for the day is, in steam-era passenger service, how were through trains that stopped at 'terminal' type stations (eg: Washington Union) typically handled? The problem being, of course, that the loco would be trapped at the buffer end of the platform, facing the wrong direction to continue on with the train. Was the inbound loco simly cut off the train, and a fresh one coupled up to the other end of the platform to continue on?
I'm thinking of the 'crack' named trains here, not a sleepy local, so I'm imagining they didn't wait around for a loco to be cut off, run around the train (assuming a loco escape was available), be turned/coaled/watered/etc, and recoupled at the other end? But how often did these trains get new road engines? Every major stop? Whenever (before) the water was going to run out?
I've always loved steam locos, but the more I learn about how they were actually used, the more I realize I know almost nothing about the subject.
They either turned on a wye or not all the tracks were stubs .
Washington Union Station has both.
I also suspect there were very few through trains at stub terminals . They were stubs for a reason. The B&O station in Pittsburgh was a stub . Everything going to that one terminated there . Through trains used the P&LE station .
St Louis Union Station which at one time handled more trains a day then any other station in the country, had a wye and the trains backed into the platform.
Lots of approaches:
1. The train arrives & stops a few carlengths from the bumper. The engine cuts off & runs through a crossover to a parallel track, then proceeds to the engine service area. Switch engine pulls the consist back and takes it to the coach yard for turning and servicing. This might include separating sleepers, mail cars & express cars to go to their respective destinations or servicing locations.
2. The whole train is backed out for turning and servicing. This usually (not always) means a yard engine is attached to the rear car to actually perform the switching. It might leave the road engine to be moved out on its own, or it might take the road engine out with the rest of the train.
3. Sometimes, if the layover will be brief and the servicing minimal, the arriving train may turn on a loop or wye and back in. This is time consuming, and means it will take a few extra minutes for passengers to arrive. This can be an important delay if the passengers are making close connections. In the very old days, it wasn't done this way very often, but the practice became more common in the latter pre-Amtrak days when service and passenger convenience sometimes took a back seat to efficiency. The engine can be removed for servicing or replacement, and this also facilitates the changing of head end cars for the return trip. In this case, cleaning and restocking may be done right there on the platform tracks.
In Jacksonville, Florida, most arriving ACL trains from the North would come in and prepare to proceed South on the Florida East Coast for Miami, right through the station. They might have engines and head end equipment changed, and some cars might be added or removed, but servicing would be minimal so that was done at the platform. Seaboard and Southern trains did not continue on the FEC, so they backed in. For example, the SAL's Southbound Silver Meteor typically came in from the North and backed into the station. The Conductor guided the movement by controlling the air from the boat tail observation car, and obs. car passengers got a good look at the process. After the station stop, the train left in the forward direction, took the South leg of the wye, and proceeded to Miami.
Tom
I just want to point out that none of these techniques are exclusive steam era only. Whether steam, diesel or electric right up to today, all these operations still apply. At a dead end track, the only way in is normally the only way out, too. Several commuter operations use a push-pull configuration, with the locomotive on one end and a cab control car on the other. When the train reaches the bumper block the engineer or hostler simply moves to the other end of the train and proceeds in the other direction.
Another way was to have the train to pull in and the station switcher couple onto the train and pull it back to the main.
Remember large terminals had switch crews and in some cases their own railroad like the Washington Terminal or Cincinnati Union Terminal.
A thing to remember the majority of the stations was located downtown and real estate for a loop was minimal at best and the railroads did whatever they needed to get the job done.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
In steam days, B&O through trains originated (or terminated) at Camden Station in Baltimore, but ran east or west through Washington, over the Metropolitan Sub and the Washington Branch, rather than straight out of Baltimore over the old Main Line. This might seem like the long way around, but the B&O made a virtue out of necessity by advertising the "stopover privilege" in Washington as part of its passenger offering. Those two lines meet just north of Union Station, and they make a wye. Trains would head into the station, the back out to the wye and head out in whichever direction they meant to go. If you're looking for more details, you might want to see what you can find on the B&O "Capitol Limited," as Herb Harwood (among others) has produced some interesting stuff on it.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
The loop and/or other turning facilities don't have to be right at the station, either. Think Penn Station New York - no way was the land available in Manhatten to turn or service locos (plus it was all underground). So out to Long Island it went, the well-know Sunnyside Yard where passenger cars were services and replenished, locos services, and whole trains turned on the big loop that ran around the whole thing.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm reminded of the scene in the Hitchcock film North By Northwest where Cary Grant and Eva Marie Saint have to walk past the idling, panting NYC E8, 4044, that has just completed the 922 miles from Harmon, New York.
The passengers getting off the New York Central trains had to walk past the engines and all the head-end equipment to get to the "head-house" or station concourse. If your car was toward the end of the train that could be a pretty good hike.
Nearly all the through passenger trains kept the same locomotive on the faster-scheduled trains. In later steam years the PT tender was developed to allow for a much larger coal capacity since water could be scooped at speed. Reserve or "protection" locomotives were kept ready at some of the larger engine facilities in case of mechanical problems that would necessitate an engine swap.
Generally, the departing trains were backed in so the last car was closest to the bumping post. Sometimes this was handled by the station yard crew since the road crew may not come on duty until closer to departure time.
At Grand Central the New York Central trains were pulled backwards into GCT by the venerable S class electrics, some of which were built between 1904-1909, then the switcher was usually cut-off and run around to push the train toward the bumping post. Grand Central did have loop-around tracks but as far as I can research, these were only used for locomotives to "escape" and entire trains were not turned on these loops {edit, yes the upper level loop was used to turn complete trains} some were instead hauled back to Mott Haven Yard, NYC's passenger service facility located about six miles north of GCT where a wye was available for turning entire trains—in a similar fashion that Randy mentioned above about PRR's Sunnyside.
As others have mentioned, some terminals were incorporated into one leg of a wye. I seem to recall that at one time trains had to back into Richmond, Virginia.
An interesting topic...
Regards, Ed
Ed, At CUT all trains was switched out to coach,Pullman or Commissary for clean out and servicing.RPOs and mail storage went to the USPS building while REA express cars went to the REA building.
At Columbus cars was added and removed during the station stop and taken to the REA building,USPS building,Pullman track or the commissary track for cleaning before it went to the commissary building for loading.
If a Pullman was going to be switched into another train then it remained at the station on the Pullman layover track. By the early 60s only 6 trains remained and all had to be switched except for C&Os Ashland,Ky to Detroit Sportsman which C&O renamed George Washington Detroit section in the middle 60s but,the local fans retained the name Sportsman.
West of the station there was a roundhouse for the passenger steam engines.By the early 50s this roundhouse was closed.Diesels had replace steam except on the N&W. Even these steamers was living on borrowed time since the N&W was dropping their Portsmouth to Columbus train.
Randy ---
You referred to Sunnyside Yard in the past tense. Rest assured, Sunnyside is still quite active, servicing scores of passenger trains every day. The turning loop is still very much in use.
Tom, What about dinners? I don't know about today but,back in the day the kitchen area had to be spotlessly cleaned and inspected by a FDA inspector before they could be released for loading at the commissary.
The inspector checked overall cleanliness of the food preparation area and cold storage temps. He then inspected the dinning area.
This was not a job for a slacker because if passengers became ill from food poisoning their neck was automatically placed on the chopping block with accusing fingers pointed toward them-guilty until proven innocent...
Typically, restaurants in the US are inspected by inspectors from the State or County Health Department. Since railroad dining cars cross State lines in interstate commerce, they fall into a different category and are regulated directly by the Federal Food & Drug Administration. A friend of mine used to be a State inspector. We have discussed this, and concluded that Amtrak is held to standards that are much higher than any standards he could enforce.
As far as I know, FDA oversight is much tighter today than it was in years past. Inspectors are not necessarily present at every turnaround and restocking, but they do make periodic inspections in which grades are assessed to the dining car personnel, as well as to the Mechanical Dept. personnel who are responsible for maintaining the equipment. Without getting into too much detail, I can say that some violations were considered minor because they were unlikely to result in illness. Other violations were "critical" for obvious reasons. My crew consistently scored well above 90%. More often than not, we would score at or near 100%. The Mechanical Dept. often failed to reach scores that high, so we sometimes had refrigeration units that failed, etc. Fortunately, we could move food to other refrigerators in an emergency. During any given trip, the chefs and LSAs are required to frequently check and document temperatures in all refrigerators, freezers, and cooking devices. Since lounge cars are also considered food service cars, they must meet the same standards.
In the old days, diners were often cut out and moved to a special Commissary track for restocking. Nowadays, this is usually done on the platform track or in the coach yard, without breaking the train. Supplies are brought to the train in refrigerarted or insulated straight-body trucks by Aramark.
FDA inspectors also inspect non-food service cars for compliance of restrooms, etc., and they also inspect stationary facilities such as Commissaries, water refilling stations, etc. A couple years ago, an FDA inspector was inspecting the water refilling station at a significant terminal and discovered contamination. Furher investigation revealed that the source was not Amtrak, but the local City water supply that was connected to the Amtrak facility. The appropriate people were notified, and the problem was resolved before any harm was done to any Amtrak passenger or City resident. This is one of those "news" stories that never got in the news because alert people were doing their jobs conscientiously. It's one of the reasons that we should think twice before assuming all tax money is wasted.
Tom,Great stuff! Thank you! I haven't really kept up with Amtrak since I never was overly interested in passenger trains unless it involved switching the inbound train to the coach yard or the outbound train to the station and adding or removing the motive power.
Wow, interesting discussion! It really sounds as though all options were on the table. I mentioned Washington Union since I live in close proximity to the old Met, and knew the B&O would run their East/West trains to/from Baltimore and points North via Union station, which doesn't have through tracks (in that direction).
Seems it was routine for them to use the wye just north of Union, and back their trains in to the upper level platforms, that way they'd be ready to depart and be directed either N to Baltimore, or on the the Met for points west.
In Minneapolis, the Milwaukee Road depot was on the north side of downtown, while the Milwaukee mainline was just north of Lake Street - about 30 blocks south. The line leading to the depot was connected to one leg of a wye coming off the mainline. Passenger trains would stop and back through the wye the whole way to the depot. That's why trains like the Hiawatha had an airhorn mounted on the rear of the observation car. The conductor would blow the horn for crossings, while watching the track ahead through the rear observation windows. I forget exactly how they did it before radio, but they had a signal system set up so he could communicate with the crew in the locomotive.
In St.Paul, St.Paul Union Depot had both through tracks and stub tracks. The through tracks (along the Missisippi) were the Milwaukee's tracks, so trains that used the Milwaukee depot in Minneapolis could stop at the depot and then continue forward (towards Chicago). Trains that used the Great Northern depot in Minneapolis (GN, NP etc.) came on a separate track that curved down from the north to SPUD. The tracks came together to form a wye, so trains that used the GN depot in Mpls. could back in and then head out, regardless if they were going east or west. (Of course, GN and NP tracks ended at SPUD so CB&Q engines would replace the GN or NP cars for trains heading east to Chicago; vice-versa for trains heading west.)
wjstix I forget exactly how they did it before radio, but they had a signal system set up so he could communicate with the crew in the locomotive.
Back in the day, most passenger trains were equipped with a train air signal system, also called a communicating whistle. That was the second air hose you used to see right next to the brake hose on the end of passenger cars and engines. Operating a valve on the car would reduce the air pressure in the signal line causing a small whistle to sound in the engine cab.
It took a little practice to get the hang of operating the valve correctly, but once you got used to it, it was easy to back up a passenger train.
To see the various signals used, look for "Communicating Signals" in an old Rule Book. They can often be found a page or two after the "Engine Whistle Signals" section. There was even a signal to reduce train heat (6 shorts on the B&O).
DSO17Back in the day, most passenger trains were equipped with a train air signal system, also called a communicating whistle.
...and it is this little, shrill peanut whistle that I have been asking the DCC sound decoder manufacturers to include in some of their sound files!
I remember standing on the platform near the engines and hearing the whistle coming from the cab as the conductor signalled a highball from somewhere back in the train.
The function list is getting crowded but for those of us that would like to hear that whistle I think it would be nice to have. I mean if they have sounds of cows being milked and roosters crowing and sleigh bells, certainly there's room to fit the signal whistle in there somewhere?
So far my requests have fallen on... deaf ears
Those "peanut whistles" were also provided on cabooses so the Conductor could guide reverse moves. On the Seaboard's Silver Meteor (mentioned in one of my earlier posts), the Conductor stationed himself in the boat-tail observation car and guided the consist backwards into the Terminal at Jacksonville. This is a fifty year old memory (actually 49-1/2;it was Spring, 1967), so I don't remember details. As I recall, he opened a little cabinet beside the rear door to access the brake controls and air whistle. I seem to recall that he had the rear door open during the process, but may not be remembering correctly.
Ed's comments about the backup whistle are right on target. I've always thought it pretty ridiculous to put conversational sounds on these sound systems because a conversation wouldn't normally be heard at the 100' or so distance of model viewing, and these conversations aren't often appropriate to the situation at hand. But the backup air whistle is definitely a sound that could be useful, appropriate, and audible on a caboose or tail car.
ACYThose "peanut whistles" were also provided on cabooses so the Conductor could guide reverse moves.
And above all blowing for crossings-the only exception being the crossing that must be flagged by ETT or your Daily Bulletin.. Guidance was by a brakeman or two standing on the running board of a boxcar/boxcars to relay signals from the cabin to the engineer.The coming of radios ended that.
The majority of the time the rear brakeman was the one standing on the cabin/caboose platform.
Remember the conductor was the foreman and like all jobs he wasn't there to do your work but,to supervise and to ensure all operating and safety rules was being complied with..Of course the salt and pepper beard conductors and brakeman knew what rules could be safely bent without endangering the train or follow employees.
A example.
We all knew sending a cabin/caboose over a hump was against the rules..Nobody said you couldn't kick it while flat switching.
For the early 1950's the B&O Employee Time Table (ETT) lists which trains used the wye and which trains headed in to Union Station.
One unusual train at Washington was 19/20, the Ambassador. Westbound it backed in; Eastbound it headed in, and was then pulled by a steam engine (usually a P7-until November 1953) backward to Baltimore's Camden Station, upper level (stub tracks, vs lower level, through tracks). The two switchers worked the head end and coaches, then other working the first class cars. Then there was no turning of the equipment in Baltimore, with the train reassembled on the upper level platform. Sleepers and diner moved to the platform about 3 hours prior to departure to apply steam heat and finish provisioning the diner. Coaches and head end came later, finally road engine came from Riverside engine terminal, to run westbound.
The Baltimore communters mostly headed in, with a WUT swticher pulling the consist to the coach yard for cleaning, and use later in the day. The engine then proceeded to the Ivy City engine terminal for service and turning.
I don't know, and would be interested in the group's collective knowledge as to whether other Baltimore trains (21/22 Washingtonian and 17/18 Cleveland Night Express) were turned on Bailey's wye, or the seats turned for the return trip. Commuters were generally not turned, with combines running 'backward' at the end of the consist.
The B&O had it's own wye 'outside' the WUT wye. Terminal charges applied to any cars entering the terminal. B&O's mail and express trains (29, 31, 32 and 2nd/8). The train remained on B&O's wye. Cars to be worked at Washington were cut off / added sometimes by WUT switchers and sometimes by B&O power into the terminal for placment at the mail or express facilities, so B&O did not pay for the cars running through.
WUT through tracks were used by PRR and the southern connections. Power and consists were changed , and the train proceeding onward. Prr also had many stub tracks on the upper level for its own traffic northward (eastbound), where terminal swtichers pulled consists to the coah yards and engines ran to Ivy City for service.
Travers, BaltimoreTerminal, 11-9-16
At the two steam era stations I am familiar with, North and South Station in Boston (B&M and NH-B&A, respectively), trains were backed in and out although switchers were also used in placing cars or a train at the station. For example, at North Station a name train might be made-up in the yard and backed in by a switcher and later have headend cars placed followed by a locomotive backing in from the engine terminal. Local trains, however, would be stored in coach yards where they would be picked-up by a road engine and backed in ready to go since during the rush hours trains had to get in and out fast because there were so many trains leaving on close headways to several destinations (Pacifics and Moguls were the local power when I was young - I watched them coupled at the engine terminal and moved as groups to the coach yard to facilitate their passage over main lines). There was a loop at South Station for turning New Haven trains but I don't recall that the B&M or B&A had a loop or even a wye used for turning. In general, I think there was a great variety in the way trains were handled at major stations so it is hard to be wrong in the way you decide to do things on a layout as long as it makes sense. One of the pleasures of arriving at a stub terminal was walking past the locomotive. I don't think I was ever at a terminal that had engine-escape crossovers. At South Station for example, the train and engine waited at the bumper until the train was unloaded. Baggage came off at arrival but some fully loaded express and mail storage cars may have been shifted to the post office or express building tracks. Keep in mind that in the 19th century many people thought that if trains only passed through a place the place wasn't important - trains terminated at important places because those were the places people wanted to go. In the south many stations where trains did not terminate were still stub stations because they would seem more important that way. At those stations a through train would back in rather than pass through. Regarding backing a train in, I recall well empty steam trains backing in to North Station with a trainmen in the end door with a brake hose back-up whistle and brake control device (called a riding hose) -- the whistle was like a peanut whistle and let you know a train was coming and was fun to listen to as a train rolled in backing at a relatively good clip. The rule book stated, "....man who is to handle backup moves must know that he has control of the air brakes before the move is started." The rule was that the backup man, "will be held responsible for movement of draft". The engineman was required to, "lap the automatic brake valve".