If I'm going to be modeling a freelanced Texas system, it seems important I should pay attention to what the prototypes were doing at the time. I've seen many photos of Southern Pacific, Texas & Pacific/Missouri Pacific, and others with doghouses on their freight locomotive tenders. I've read bits and pieces and have concluded that at some time or another, Texas law required them on freight engines operating within the state. Does anyone know when this law went into effect and expired? I've seen many with doghouses, but also some without.
One of my bigger concerns is that my road will have a sizable number of dual purpose 4-8-2s built for passenger/fast freight service. How would I model one that is meant for either? Doghouses on all, or should I pick a couple for passenger service, detail them as such, and leave the doghouses off? Please excuse my ignorance, as this is the first time I've tried to really dig this deep into specific prototype operations.
Thanks!
Dakota
As to the second part of your post, a 'dual purpose' engine is just that, an engine that might haul freight on Monday, and a passenger train on Tuesday. Such engines would be equipped with steam lines (for heating passenger cars) and anything else required to allow them to haul passenger trains. A railroad probably wouldn't buy 10 'dual purpose' engines and say 'OK these five are freight engines, and these five are passenger engines' and make mechanical changes to them based on that. For example, in the 1950's-60's some railroads had GPs with steam generators installed, so they could be used on passenger trains, even though they were primarily used as freight engines.
(Keep in mind, this is different from how the engines might be assigned by the railroad. They might assign 4 to specific passenger trains, 4 to scheduled fast freights, with two kept to be used as needed in either job.)
Since brakemen rode in the passenger cars on passenger trains, it's unlikely state law required doghouses on passenger engines; most likely just freight engines. If that's the case, a railroad would probably need to put doghouses on the tenders of any engines it might use on a freight train, even if the engine's primary assignment was on passenger trains.
I can't say for sure if that would have been a state law or federal one (from the FRA). However, if there were room in the cab for a seat (often a drop-down type) for the headend brakeman, a doghouse wouldn't necessarily be required.If your locomotives have those short "sport model" cabs, go with a doghouse (although Mopac Mikes had generously-proportioned cabs and doghouses, too).As Stix has mentioned, dual purpose locomotives would likely all have been fully equipped for true dual service: steam and signal lines and accommodation for the headend brakie.
Wayne
In my poking around on the subject, I found lots of opinions supported by few facts.
I did find that Texas bothered to pass a full crew law called Article 6380.
A railroad company may not run "Any freight train, gravel train, mixed train, work train, or construction train with less than a full crew consisting of five persons: one engineer, one fireman, one conductor and two brakemen."
Passenger trains could have one less brakeman.
I do not know when this law was put into effect with this wording. I am working with a revision of the law to take effect September 1, 2001. The above quote "unwinds" the law I'm looking at, meaning it is the previous version. Someone did mention 1947.
I haven't found anything that says that Texas REQUIRED a doghouse. Or a seat for the brakeman. It's possible Texas did. But I didn't find it.
Ed
BTW, seems to me this subject came up not too long ago - can't remember if it was this forum or maybe the Classic Trains one? Seems to me it was determined that there was no federal or state law saying you had to have a doghouse, but in some states there was one saying you had to provide someplace for the head-end brakeman. If there wasn't room in the cab, the railroad in those states would need to add the doghouse.
I believe in some situations, railroads ran trains with a caboose both behind the engine, for the head-end crew, and at the rear...?
Thanks guys. I had a thread a while back on recommendations for my steam power, and someone mentioned using heavy 4-8-2s with larger cabs from junker 2-8-4s or something similar. If I did this, it might elimate needing a shelter on the tender, as they would be much roomier than the standard USRA cab. The doghouses could be used on my 2-8-2s and the like.
Precedent (not in Texas):
B&O assigned T-3 4-8-2's to freight trains in Ohio in the 1940's & 1950's. Same engines were used as passenger engines in the mountains. They were built in the road's Mt. Clare Shops with extended cabs that had plenty of room for a head end brakeman's seat; but Passenger brakemen rode inside the train when headed by the same engines.
Older and smaller freight engines (2-8-0's and 2-8-2's) had tender doghouses or modified, extended cabs to provide a brakeman's seat. Either option could be found on Consolidations and Q-1 and Q-10 2-8-2's. The old small cab with extension modification (left side only) was pretty much universal on Q-3, Q-4, and Q-7 2-8-2's, as well as S-1 2-10-2's.
You are modeling a different railroad in a different region, but your approach to the problem is about the same & seems to make perfect sense.
Tom
wjstix BTW, seems to me this subject came up not too long ago - can't remember if it was this forum or maybe the Classic Trains one? Seems to me it was determined that there was no federal or state law saying you had to have a doghouse, but in some states there was one saying you had to provide someplace for the head-end brakeman. If there wasn't room in the cab, the railroad in those states would need to add the doghouse.
This might be it:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/258517/2899828.aspx
I didn't see any law cited in the topic. As to proving a negative ("no federal or state law"), I didn't see that, either.
As I said in my earlier post, I found lots of opinions and "I heard"s. One of which might be right. But when someone's going to say "It's the law", they really should cite it.
[quote user="wjstix"]
I have heard that Indiana law required the use of a caboose (or equivalent) on the head end of trains over a certain length. I don't know the details of that law. Many photos show this practice being followed on B&O and NKP.
wjstixI believe in some situations, railroads ran trains with a caboose both behind the engine, for the head-end crew, and at the rear...?
On the C&O if the freight engine wasn't equipped with a "utility seat" for the head brakeman then a caboose was added behind the engine. To get around the expense of hauling a extra caboose C&O added box seats behind the fireman's seat. The head brakie was force to ride sideways due to the limited space.
According to my uncle(a C&O fireman) those seats was uncomfortable due to the way you had to sit.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Either way you look at, whether sitting in an awkward position in the cab or stuffed in that tiny box, sounds like a not so pleasurable ride
DDavidsonFarms Either way you look at, whether sitting in an awkward position in the cab or stuffed in that tiny box, sounds like a not so pleasurable ride
Allow me to share this tidbit. On the PRR a engineer or fireman would turn off the steam to the dog house causing the brakeman to become cold..A chunk or two of coal toss in the direction of the cab would get no response so,the head man had to climb over the coal pile to the cab and have the steam turn back on. Of course by the time he reach the cab the steam was already turned back on and with a straight face the engineer or fireman would ask if there a problem with the train?
Hahaha pranks like that could make for a looooooong and interesting work day
Interesting topic,
I'm sure the length of those Doghouses were about the size of a garden shed (maybe half of a garden shed) the door should be normal-sized to walk in/out, two benches to sit on (one on either side) an air conditioner, and space to move around rather than just being thrown inside and packed in like a can of sardines.
My best guess of the Doghouse size is 2700X1900 feet, I could be wrong though.
Length:2700
Width:1900
or
Length:4400
Withth:2800
Or how about 10x8, 8x6 feet
It's fair to give the guy some space to move around in.
ATSFGuyIt's fair to give the guy some space to move around in.
You would think that would be reasonable but,nope,didn't happen at least on the PRR. A wooden seat without a cushion and without back rest-use the wall for that-and remember to stoop going in and out,remain stooped turn 180 degrees and be seated.
ATSFGuy, OSHA was established in 1970, well after the age of steam. Even then, it took them years to get any real work place protections in place. They are still arguing with others over just how much jurisdiction the really have when it comes to railroads and their employees.
When Brakie argues that doghouses were miserable places that had to be endured, believe him. The only real protection railroad workers had in those days were the Brotherhoods (unions), who couldn't work miracles. Railroading was hard dangerous work. Iron men and steel rails has a lot of truth in it.
CG
CentralGulfRailroading was hard dangerous work. Iron men and steel rails has a lot of truth in it.
Back in the day of steam and when I worked the on the PRR and later the C&O under Chessie it was a man's job as far as tough outside work in all weather and death or injury was one mistake away. That still holds true for today even with all the modern safety and work rules.
When I worked on the rails swinging on and off moving cars and engines was done during day or in the dark of the night in sun,rain fog and blowing snow. Switch lock froze up? Use a fusee to thaw it out.Can't open the switch because of snow? Grab the broom from the caboose and clean it out. Did I mention some times there was no fuel for the caboose/cabin stove.
Not so bad in the summer except for the extremely hot or rainy days.
One never knows what will be laying on urban industrial lead tracks from passed out drunks to refrigerators. A reverse move up a urban industrial lead with cabin or caboose lead is a lot of fun in the middle of the night--that's why we always carried spare batteries for our Starlites..And the knuckleheads in stores (supply) wonder how we could use so many batteries in one night.
Texas & Pacific had a lot of doghouses during the steam era and almost exclusively OIL tenders. Coal tenders were less common in Texas.