I'm currently debating whether or not to include cabooses on my narrow gauge logging layout. Train length is usually 6-7 freight cars and one engine. I'd have to shorten this by 1 to accommodate the caboose at the end of the train.
My question is, would a narrow gauge railroad with trains this short run without cabooses? The layout is set in 1948.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
In 1948, these things were largely regulated by State law, as well as Union rules (if applicable) and the practical issues. Where does the Conductor do his paperwork, if not in the caboose? Do operating rules require flagging for following trains? I guess a small line with one loco and one daily train might get by without them, but any greater traffic will require flag protection. The flagman needs a place to ride, especially in Oregon winters. If there is a breakdown enroute, where are the rerailer frogs, pry bars, fusees, lanterns, jacks, etc., carried? Usually, the caboose or an equivalent car such as a coach or baggage-coach combine will be the answer to all of these questions.
Maybe somebody with knowledge of Oregon State law circa 1948 will chime in. Another question: Did Oregon have a requirement that cabooses must have at least four axles (8 wheels)? Some States did.
Tom
Since most loggers only used a three man crew(engineer,fireman and switchman) there would be no need for a caboose. The switchman wouldn't have any paper work since its empty log buggies in loaded buggies out and return to the mill operation.
The loggers was private rail operations that operated on temporary track that lasted until the timber was logged out.
I wish I could find that photo of a 3 truck Shay that was "wading" a creek-the rail and ties was under water.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ACYIf there is a breakdown enroute, where are the rerailer frogs, pry bars, fusees, lanterns, jacks, etc., carried?
On the tender deck,in tool boxes on running boards there would be no fusees and lanterns can be carried in the cab.
I also recall seeing photos of logging "cabooses" that looked more like a outhouse mounted on a pair of arch bar trucks.
Some log engines carried a hose in order to add water to the tender from the nearest creek it crossed.
There was probably more State and Federal laws covering the use of mules,horses and oxen in logging then for the rail operation.
Thumbing through "Railroads in the Woods" by Labbe and Goe (which is just chock full of logging pix and info about logging in the Northwest), I found some pictures of cabeese. White River Lumber had one that would pass for a woody out of the East coast. Deep River Logging had one built on a disconnect truck. When they were hauling loads, it was placed next to the engine.
Here's a similar one by Kadee:
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page104.htm
That one is awful short, so it would cut down on train length less.
There was definitely a variety.
BUT.
Very few logging roads were interested in spending money if they didn't have to (Sugar Pine Lumber being an exception). So, if there was a caboose on a train, there was a darn good reason. If you've got a reason, add a caboose. If you don't, don't.
It does seem to me that hauling 6-8 cars of logs 5-10 miles isn't very caboose-worthy. I'd say that's even more true for a narrow-gage operation.
Logging railroads being private, they could use a caboose for about anything they wanted: hauling some stuff up to camp, or maybe a couple of lads who drifted in kinda late on Monday morning and missed the crew train.
Lotsa options.
Ed
7j43kor maybe a couple of lads who drifted in kinda late on Monday morning and missed the crew train.
More then likely they would ride the "high breeze" on the deck of the tender or worst the tender steps.Recall there was no OSHA and very few safety rules in the hey days of the loggers.
I read a library book on the life and times of a logger-the crew train was more like wagons since the timber crews went to work before the train crew. A lot of the loggers built crude bunk houses(usually filled with lice,roaches bed bugs) or erected medium size tents near the cutting area since the crews usually worked a harsh 12 hour day 6 days a week. The kitchen tent sold all you can eat meals for 25 cents per meal.
Several have mentioned regulations and laws re cabooses, but also that many logging RRs were exempt. Still most had cabooses. Yes, the crew needed a place to ride, but also to work from.
In the woods down a rough branch to the loading deck, a caboose might be in the way at the end of the line, so could sit back on the main. That's where it was added to the train to go to the mill.
The need of the crew for a caboose at the end of the train were numerous. If there weren't airbrakes, crew might have to get on the ground and run alongside applying them. If there was a branch or main that the train had to take, was abackup move involved? This particualrly applied when there were switchbacks, as that required crew to close and secure the respective turnouts at each opposite the end of the loco.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanThe need of the crew for a caboose at the end of the train were numerous. If there weren't airbrakes, crew might have to get on the ground and run alongside applying them. If there was a branch or main that the train had to take, was abackup move involved? This particualrly applied when there were switchbacks, as that required crew to close and secure the respective turnouts at each opposite the end of the loco.
The engine will be shoving the cars upgrade due to the steep grades and the buggies not having air brakes so,the switchman would simply swing off the engine at the switch and swing back on as the engine passed.The same applied for the return trip.
Remember these railroads operated on poor hastily laid track,no ballast and oddly spaced ties and the majority of the loggers top speed was a blistering 15-20 mph on the level and walking speed going up or down those steep grades-these grades could reach 10-12%..
Some loggers would remain at the loading site until the buggies was loaded since space on the side of a hill was at a premium since the road bed was cut out from the mountain another reason loggers preferred narrow guage..
BRAKIE Since most loggers only used a three man crew(engineer,fireman and switchman) there would be no need for a caboose. The switchman wouldn't have any paper work since its empty log buggies in loaded buggies out and return to the mill operation. The loggers was private rail operations that operated on temporary track that lasted until the timber was logged out. I wish I could find that photo of a 3 truck Shay that was "wading" a creek-the rail and ties was under water. Larry, you may be remembering the Elk River Coal & Lumber Company (later W. M. Ritter), whose Shays and Climaxes waded through the Lilly Fork. Even there, they used cabooses. Tom
Larry, you may be remembering the Elk River Coal & Lumber Company (later W. M. Ritter), whose Shays and Climaxes waded through the Lilly Fork. Even there, they used cabooses.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/401222/
This is probably it.
BRAKIEThe engine will be shoving the cars upgrade due to the steep grades and the buggies not having air brakes so,the switchman would simply swing off the engine at the switch and swing back on as the engine passed.The same applied for the return trip.
Larry,
Yeah, I've seen it done that way, too, but also seen it done with cabooses. All depends on how management wanted it done and the local circumstances and conditions. In this case, we're trying to find reasons to have caboose, because you can always not have them. Back in the day, running trains without a caboose tended to be the exception, not the rule, whether or not there was a practical need.
One place where there could be a need would be if a switchback turnout needed to be realigned after passage through it for a following train, where a crew member might want to get back aboard the opposite end of the train.
Speaking of practical needs, on ops without airbrakes it's possible that crew on the caboose may have done some braking while it was moving to help manage slack, if for no other reason than to improve their ride. How much that happened I have no idea, but under certain grade profiles it could have been a useful option to use, rather like brake vans were in Europe.
Mike,In the majority of the cases a caboose would be dead weight coming down grade with several loaded buggies. I've seen photos of runaways where the geared locomotive and its train ended up spread all over the down slope of the mountain some was never recovered and may remain there today.A caboose would not have help. A lot of the loggers still used link and pins when the last logs was removed and the operation shut down
OTOH a lot of the bigger loggers used cabooses,geared and rod locomotives and embraced modern log buggies with air brakes..
In that light I guess it will depend on if you're modeling a major logger (Westside,Weyerhaeuser,Coos Bay and other like) or a minor penny ante operation.
NorthWest http://www.railpictures.net/photo/401222/ This is probably it.
Yuppers! Thank You!
Hi all,
Thank-you for all the replies. It's been interesting reading, and I've learnt a bit from it.
In 1948, the BVLC is running 8 locomotives (including a 35-ton diesel), and serving 3 logging camps (plus the base camp), I figure it's on the medium-large size as far as logging railroads go. As such, based on the information here, I've decided it will have cabooses (cabeese?).
I've found a kit that I like, based off one of the West Side Lumber Co. cabooses, and ordered 3 of them.
For your consideration, a film on Klickitat Logging and Lumber, wherein #7 takes empties up to the load out, and picks up a load:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3lQfvCTn8
At 9:30 you finally see the end of the train--no caboose.
KL&L was a logging line out of Klickitat WA. It ran only one locomotive at a time. As far as I know, they were Shays.
Note that the locomotive was always downhill of the train.
Note also that chains did not go over the top of the load. I believe they put a layer of logs on the car, connected the side stakes with a chain, and put more logs on top so as to keep the chain taught.
#7 was working until about 1964. In the film, this is evidenced by the woodchip cars, which were fairly late to arrive to logging and lumber.
Here, also, is some neat logging info:
http://www.rootsofmotivepower.com/sites/default/files/Roots-Of-Motive-Power-Highline-2011-December-Vol-29-03.pdf
If KL&L, a standard gage line where trains looked to be 20-30 cars, didn't use cabeese, it's hard to imagine a narrow gage line with 7 cars using one. Unless, of course, there was a need. And adequate funds.