Can somebody tell me why some roads used doghouses on their steamers tenders and why others didn´t?
Also I would like to know who decided about wether using doghouses or not: the road or the state?
I´m asking this because I heard that the state of Texas once made a law saying that all tenders must feature doghouses. I guess that´s why I only see doghouse equipped tenders on the SP and T&P in the late steam era, while the same engines/tenders didn´t feature them on earlier photos from the 20s/30s. Does anybody know the exact year when Texas made it an obligation for tenders to have doghouses?
And what about other roads like D&RGW or PRR that used doghouses too? Was it their own decision or some states decision?
I suspect it had to do with room in the cab to provide seating. Many steam engines had little space in the cab. And Texas summers would want me to be outside the cab!
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
De LuxeCan somebody tell me why some roads used doghouses on their steamers tenders and why others didn´t?
Deep question with many answers. As you know the head brakeman had to have a seat to sit on for safety reasons so,some roads opt for a dog house so the head brakeman could look back over the train some while roads added a seat behind the fireman's seat because it was safer since there was no need to use the tender's ladder or climb over the coal pile.
A seat was required by the FRA, some states or mandated by company and the brotherhood work and safety agreements.
BTW,Those dog shacks wasn't fit for a dog let alone a human since they was cramped,dirty,drafty and heated by steam with the control valve located in the cab which means the engineer could as a joke could shut off the heat or turn it up either freezing the head brakeman or slow roasting him..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Many B&O locomotives had their cabs extended on the firemans side to give the head brakeman his own seat and window. It was hard to notice unless you could view the engineers side and firemans side at the same time.
I've never come across any reference to legislation requiring a doghouse on the tender. I think it was just up to what worked best in the opinion of the railroad.
I'm not sure what laws apply, and I don't know whether they were State of Federal laws. In general, the extra seating was required for the head end brakeman, and the modifications generally began to appear around the late 1930's and early 1940's. Often, a locomotive cab was big enough to permit the installation of one or more extra seats. If not, then a doghouse was an option exercised by many roads.
Sometimes cabs were modified for this purpose. Erie added a very small extension to the back of the fireman's side. This addition was so small that it is hard to see on many photos, but you can find it if you look. B&O is a good case study. Cabs on many B&O freight locomotives were extended about 12" to the rear on the fireman's side for this purpose. When this was done, the tender's water leg on that side was usually cut back appropriately to provide clearance in the gangway. The cut back water leg is generally not reproduced on models of B&O engines with extensions, even on the higher-priced ones. This occurred on all Q-3 and Q-4 Mikados, all S-1 2-10-2's, all T-4 4-8-2's, and the early 2-8-8-0's. It was also done on many earlier Mikados and 2-8-0's, although doghouses were often found on these earlier types as an alternate solution to the problem. The later EM-1 2-8-8-4's and T-3 4-8-2's had cabs large enough to accommodate the brakeman without modification. Switch engines and passenger engines usually didn't require these mods. The brakeman on a switcher spent a lot of time on the ground or riding the cars; the brakeman on a passenger train rode inside the tain.
Akron Canton & Youngstown, in Ohio, generally put doghouses on their road engines, plus a couple 0-8-0's that occasionally wandered out onto the main line on locals, but they made an exception with their M class 2-8-0's numbers 320-324. They added a brakeman's extension to the FRONT of the fireman's side, making for a very unusual-looking locomotive!
Here's an interesting side note: Akron & Barberton Belt RR in Ohio had four 0-6-0 switchers, numbers 15 - 18, built by Baldwin just before the Depression, with obvious design influence from PRR. Large doghouses were installed on all four in the late 1930's. In a ridiculous efficiency move, Management decided to banish the Conductor to the doghouse and retired their entire small fleet of ex-PRR N6a and N6b cabooses. Just how the Conductor could effectively do his work in the doghouse is anybody's guess! By about 1947, the Ohio Public Utilities Commission got into the act and demanded that A&BB resume the use of cabooses on over-the-road runs. So the road bought two more N6b's, renumbered them 1 and 2, and used them for several years. I didn't make that up!
Tom
Tom,
that management group that banished the caboose are still running some other companies today.
ACY In a ridiculous efficiency move, Management decided to banish the Conductor to the doghouse and retired their entire small fleet of ex-PRR N6a and N6b cabooses. Just how the Conductor could effectively do his work in the doghouse is anybody's guess! By about 1947, the Ohio Public Utilities Commission got into the act and demanded that A&BB resume the use of cabooses on over-the-road runs. So the road bought two more N6b's, renumbered them 1 and 2, and used them for several years. I didn't make that up! Tom
Tom,I also heard or read that story..That's what you call railroad management hard at work.
BTW.The only light in the dog house came from the brakeman's lantern.Of course he had to see out to watch back over the train so no lights. I suspect there was a lot of feather bedding going on back then.
Feather bedding in railroad speak is/was sleeping on the job.
On the Rio Grande, doghouses came about through the workings of the labor contract. The headend brakeman was often stuck with finding a corner to keep out of wind and weather, but managed to get better protection written into their contract, with management acting to make sure this happened by repairing and/or adding the doghouses.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
If I'm not mistaken, the black cushions visible at the open door of CNR 6060 are the folded-down seat for the head-end brakeman.
The photo was taken in the mid-'70s, when the locomotive was in regular scheduled service between Toronto and Niagara Falls, Ontario, Wednesdays and Saturdays during the summer. It replaced the usual RDCs for one out-and-back run on each of those days.
Wayne
The upper black part is the backrest, the bottom one is the folded down seat.
And you aren't fooling me, that's one of your models, isn't it?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks for your comment, Randy, but the 6060 and her sisters were too new for my late-'30s layout, as they were built in 1944.
Even though the runs were regularly-scheduled ones usually covered by RDCs, a baggage car was always included on the headend for use by railfans, mostly for audio recordings. That's how I got this photo, at track speed:
The previous photo, along with the one below, was taken during a servicing stop near Niagara Falls, where the locomotive was turned for the return trip. I was unable to get far enough away for a full locomotive-with-tender view:
This one, taken not too from from my then home, shows a later railfan charter, by the NRHA, I think. Other than the VIA baggage car, the train was made up of privately-owned cars from the U.S., with a preponderance of Southern and Norfolk & Western cars:
The 6060, probably still with that brakeman's jumpseat, is still around, and running, in Alberta.
Bet some of those private cars were in the consist when I rode behind NKP 765 last year. The one I rode in was a former FEC coach St. Augustine.
Steam Locomotives built SPECIFICALLY for Passenger Service would usually have a steam line on rear of tender, ( Duh! ) for train heat and, were often painted special livery, carefully shined by wipers on the Shop before departure, or else!Anyway, when in Psgr. Service, an Engine would usually have only two men in the Cab, Engr and Fireman, as the Brakeman was now a Uniformed Passenger Trainman w/ a Badged Cap and Service Bars and rode in the train under the direction of the Passenger Conductor. They opened and shut car doors at stations, collected tickets, monitored train heat, AC and electric lights, turning Off some of the latter when at extended stops to conserve batteries beneath.Therefore, a seat for a Brakeman in the cab was often not necessary.Of course, some engines were dual purpose, and built to haul freight in addition.It got tacky when Officials decided to ride the Cab for Supervisory Reasons, such as engine steaming and performance.( Just a small? story. One night this Engineer showed up for work @ 2345 so drunk the crew assisted him into station, his train stopped outside. The incoming Engr. refused to let him 'have it' as he was that bad.I was Senior Man present and they asked me for a judgment, mine waiting for train, and a ship at the other end, too. Rush, Rush, Rush, Expedite, Expedite, Expedite as they used to type on those Tractor Drive long sheets of Printer Paper w/ manifold Carbons and Colours.I asked his Trainman if he could Run an Engine? as this train was MT, and no Meets to Mine.He said 'Yes' but not Qualified. I said to GO with called Engr. and if he F'd up, take the train from him, and take her thru. The Conductor also knew how to run an Engine, and he could have walked up, if necessary, or rode the Head End, as no Meets.If you are going to take a CHANCE, go all the way!He took her thru, no problem.BUT, there was a Road Foreman in the Cab returning, and he was NOT there to Visit.Within a Month the Hogger was caught drunk again, and sent to the Dry Out.It was assumed the Incoming Engr. told Mgmt. as HE was bucking for a White Hard Hat for himself.The story there was, when later promoted, concave cheeks, dirty knees and all, he used to do Radar Checks and took his personal car, crossing the US Border to the SI., and was caught bringing back undeclared items thru Customs on return. Over Thirty Five years ago.)Anyway, the Dog House was a GOOD IDEA, but, doubt if any were applied to TRUE Psgr Power??Part Two.We used to haunt the scrap lines when they were cutting up Steam.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_MVB4Ae29rk/VJcppT8xS0I/AAAAAAAABOU/q7C4Z60L4_U/s1600/CNR%2B4193%2Bat%2BTurcot%2BYard.pngThis is an Ex B&A 2-10-2.We were there later, the EE Electrics were still there, along with 46, but, the CN had removed the Number Plates for sale @ $10 Cast Iron, $15 Brass each thru Purchasing and Stores, Central Station, Montreal.We QUICKLY discovered that many of those tender number plates as shown in colour photo, could be removed by pushing up on them, removable so they could swap tenders in a hurry? The CN 6063 was there, but it's Engine and Tender plates were gone. So were the ones on the Northerns, Mountains and Santa Fes.Many others were not, and we carried several home, now in Museums.Later, as people pass on, the Front number plate for CN 6063 showed up at a Museum, and the Green Tender plate showed up on eBay. CN 6063 still burned Coal.Blah, Blah, Blah.
NDG....This is an Ex B&A 2-10-2.....
I recognised her right away:
Thank You, Sir!I have seen much work of yours on these Forums, and can say Exquisite! Marvelous and Talented!We spent the whole summer hanging around Turcot where more than 110 steam locomotives were cut up. We had a CN release form from Central Station and free run of the place, as long as we stayed away from active track AND the scrapping where the men were cutting up the engines using two 8-wheel Locomotive Cranes, one Steam, the larger, for loading cylinder castings into gons, 3 per car, FF somewhere else, and a new Diesel Electric one w/ a magnet for harvesting all the pieces.Driver Axle journals were put in a pile for their metals. Headlights in another pile, Bells, DittoOnce the crews went home, we would climb on the half cut up locomotives and look 'inside', being careful to not step on hot puddles of slag from torches beneath. Something was always smoldering, cab liner wood, journal packing and coal from tenders. Smelled awful.Anyway, there three other 2-10-2s there. CN 4190/4100 in R house, and preserved, CN 4102, and CN 4194. The 4190 class were renumbered from their original Nos. to accommidate new Diesels. As you mentioned, CN 4193 ( and 4194 ) were ex CN 4200s and here is an image of one from the Internet.
Other locomotives present were CN 46, 4-6-4 T, CN 84, 87 and 89, 2-6-0s, the latter active @ Strasburg. CN 6063 in the Green as per your photos and DOZENS of 4-6-2s, 2-8-2s, 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s extending in columns for 1/4 mileOver 100 locomotives at one time, being cut up and added to 'til all but 4 were gone.As it turned out, later, CN 1521 was preserved, also. Has Belpaire FB.http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lnv5zit0S7I/VKNhdaaeRkI/AAAAAAAABT4/vuqVXvtoO9k/s1600/Turcot%2BYard%2B1960%2B.jpg
( Note CN 1521 has TWO Single-Cylinder Air Pumps rather than a compound, each with it's own separate exhaust. ) A common feature
A messy, dirty place and job, but, haunting. We knew we were seeing the end, but kept coming back 'til it was over.Its NOT the same with Diesels.Thank You for saving the CN 4193 for all.
Further to this photo CN 4202, Ex B&A.I would suggest, on this Engine, the steam exhausts from Both Cylinders on the Elesco Feed Water Pump, the rear of two pumps, lower pipe receiving water from tender, and is two single-cylinder pumps joined, but, NOT Compound = two Exhausts, and the Exhaust from the Compound Air Pump are joined and feed exhaust steam into FWH across smoke box in front of stack.
Also, another view of another locomotive.Note CN 2545 2-8-0 at end of street in this photo in St Henri Montreal. The train is headed West to Turcot abt 1/4 mile.http://blogues.banq.qc.ca/instantanes/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/06/06M_P48S1P11908.jpgNote Feedwater Pump and Heater. Worthington BL.Similar to one, here.http://www.steamlocomotive.com/4-10-2/sp5021-4.jpgNot common to CNR, but, a few.OT. For the Bell Foamers, Note on pole to left Lead Sheathed Cable Underground from Exchange emerging from Conduit and up pole to Cross Connect B Box where it could be cross-connected w/ jumper wire to Aerial Cable to Subscribers, and, also terminate to Drop Wires.Later this would be part of WEllington Exchange.Have to love old photos!!!Thank You.
Just found these images CN 4190 Nee 4100.Both CN 4102 and CN 4190/4100 wound up in Montreal at the end.http://archives.lib.uconn.edu/islandora/object/20002%3A20110336http://archives.lib.uconn.edu/islandora/object/20002%3A20110348Note external steam line from steam dome to pilot for steam to Snow Melter pushed ahead.Snow Melter.http://yourrailwaypictures.com/MaintenanceEquipment/23425.jpgThe four 4, 2 each end each side Canisters on Pilot Beam and rear top of Tender Tank cover Electric Markers as the locomotives of this class were built and used for Pushers, and ran in reverse much of time, displaying Markers per the rule book, with or without cars = a 'Train'.The pilot beam markers displayed Red to Rear when Engine in reverse going back down for another push.The Markers were covered by tin canisters when not in use and Engine no longer a 'Train'FWIW.CNR 4100 has been preserved TWICE.http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/croarchives/june2088.jpghttp://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/1/9/8219.1361809557.jpgWonderful Work!!!!! on Both.Thank You!!!!!!!!!On the real CN 4190, the authentic CN 4100 number plate was changed to turn the first '0' into a '9''All too many years ago.
NDGAnyway, when in Psgr. Service, an Engine would usually have only two men in the Cab, Engr and Fireman, as the Brakeman was now a Uniformed Passenger Trainman w/ a Badged Cap and Service Bars and rode in the train under the direction of the Passenger Conductor.
Depending on era and railroad and work agreements.A brakeman on a passenger train was not unheard of if the passing siding switches was manual and the passenger train needed to clear for a time table superior train.
As far as keeping steam pipes on the tender clean again depends on the railroad.Engine wipers was among the first to get the axe once the railroads decided there wasn't a great need to keep a steam engine shinny.
Comment above about no need for a doghouse on a pure passenger locomotive:
When Stu Sanders abruptly dieselized all N&W passenger service (with borrowed RF&P locos,) some of the displaced Js had doghouses welded to their tenders. I consider that the ultimate insult.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with guards in brake vans)
Thank You, Sir.I was NOT aware that N&W or that ANY road applied Doghouses to Psgr. Steam. A travesty to be sure.I always considered the N&W to be a classy road, and the Virginian and its electrics. The way things should be done.All comments in these Forums are generalizations from personal experiences.Near the end of steam, my Employer kept it's steam power up, esp on Passenger, as it was part of the whole 'Image' thing, esp when hauling Share Holders out of Windsor Station, Montreal.( This all went out the window once Action Red took over and the penny pinchers discovered a dirty locomotive would pull as much as a shiny one, and paint and wiping cost money. The other joke was why did the Co. switch to Yellow Cabooses. Answer, Red paint cost more. )However, the next door neighbour looked like junk, as if they had robbed the scrap line for power that had a few more miles in it.Just 'cause Road A did something outside the front door, does NOT mean another road, 800 miles away did likewise. WM was always spotless, even their Baldwins. The 244 Cabs were glossy as the day they left Schenectady, and the BL2 and Slug on the Hump a marvel. There I saw my first Electric Eye which triggered a pump to squirt Journal Oil into Journal Boxes w/lid open, the shine reflected from Axle end triggering the Eye and pump.More interesting than the BL2 after it had been digested. ( Traitor ) It did arrive at the pump, slowly for the Pin Puller and Retarders beyond.The way a Diesel SHOULD look, late in it's life. NO MU. Which would help it stay clean, as rarely trailing unless behind another Unit w/crew.http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_diesel/8403.jpgAnother story.Was at a level crossing at night and the fellow beside me, who WAS astute, asked " Why were the outer vertical edges of tread of some freight car wheels shiny and reflecting the headlights of the automobile and others dark and dirty."I mentioned that much Unit Train rolling stock operated in a continuous circuits such as Mine/Ship/Mine, Mine/Powerhouse/Mine and so on, never being uncoupled except for maintenance.However, mixed freight trains would travel to many destinations and their cars would pass over a Hump somewhere, ( He knew what that was ), and, in doing so, the Retarders would clasp the wheels, polishing the surface to a shine = reflected light from headlights.He did NOT buy into 'Cushion Service' cars were ONLY for sofas, pillows + fluffy chairs. Smart Man.NOTHING is set in stone, even on the same System.Thank You.
NDGThere I saw my first Electric Eye which triggered a pump to squirt Journal Oil into Journal Boxes w/lid open, the shine reflected from Axle end triggering the Eye and pump.
Funny you should mention the oiler! This one is at the hump in Gateway yard on the P&LE!
OK, now back to doghouses.
Regards, Ed
Thank You!! So much has changed. Iron shoes, gone, too, and their smoking wheels on heavy grades from Journal Oil drooling down the faces.
One of the nicest First Gen sounds was 5 567s droning downgrade in D/B holding her back.
Once the Diesels Came, Corporate and Union Policies changed, it now often seemed the FIREMAN was in the Doghouse, even in a Diesel Locomotive Cab.
Awful time to be there.
I was.
Sorry.
Off Topic, But, Steam.I am partial to Compound Articulated ( Mallet ) locomotives. Fascinating, and Complex.Many a word has been penned regarding same and many a photo published.Many Railfans LIKE the unusual and get joy in finding the oddities out there.Here is one way to change an eight-wheel tender into a twelve-wheel tender on the same locomotive.With 8-wheel Tender.http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3674500And with 12-wheel tender.http://www.american-rails.com/images/CBDMD7212.jpgThank You!
If I am in The Doghouse, too, move it to a New Thread
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I was under the impression that doghouses weren't applied to N&W J's until those engines were withdrawn from passenger sevice and used on freight trains. Yes, a travesty.
After they were removed from passenger service, N&W J's had doghouses and often an additional "water bottle" auxilliary tender added so they could continue being usefull as freight engines. The alternative would have been to scrap them right away. This way, they got a couple more year's worth of work out them - and possibly, that extra time lead to 611 lasting long enough to be saved for later restoration. Hardly a "travesty" IMHO.
wjstix After they were removed from passenger service, N&W J's had doghouses and often an additional "water bottle" auxilliary tender added so they could continue being usefull as freight engines. The alternative would have been to scrap them right away. This way, they got a couple more year's worth of work out them - and possibly, that extra time lead to 611 lasting long enough to be saved for later restoration. Hardly a "travesty" IMHO.
An aesthetic tragedy. Preservatiion of the only surviving J is a success story --- not a travesty.
NDGOnce the Diesels Came, Corporate and Union Policies changed, it now often seemed the FIREMAN was in the Doghouse, even in a Diesel Locomotive Cab. Awful time to be there. I was. Sorry.
Yes,and a lot of the firemen I worked with on the PRR was considered "fixture" firemen because they was qualified engineers but, they held the left seat because of seniority and pay rate as a senior fireman.