Hello,
I am trying to find plans for Canadian National stockpens. More correctly, I need the typical dimensional wood sizes used. I bought the Kalmbach Meat Packing book, but it hasn't really offered much help, although it does show some very general info on stockpens. What I need are:
1) post dimensions (square or round, 6"x6" or 8'x8", etc.) and typical spacing
2) railing/stiles dimensions (2"x8" or 2"x10" near ground level, maybe 2"x6" or 8" for the top courses),and spacing between rails (e.g. some pens have the lower courses with no spacing between railings, and some spacing between the top two or three rails).
3) Typical ramp dimensions, including width, length/angle to the ground and dimensions of lumber used.
4) Paint info. Most photos I've seen seem to show pens that at least had been painted or whitewashed at some point, while others look unpainted with possible creosote treated posts.
I will have to build my pens to fit the available space, so I probably will need to make my own construction drawings, but any plans you can email me or send links for would be helpful (for dimensional data).
Also, is the ground usually sand or ???? Some photos seem to some dark ground, but is that some kind of mulch or ???? How about modelling cow patties? Would it be typical for hay or straw to be in the pens (I am modeling rest/feed/watering pens rather than holding or grazing pens).
Basically any info is appreciated. Thanx! BTW, I realize I might be asking a lot for CNR specific data. Even general data would help!
Mike - modeling the CNR in Louisiana before the CN ran here!
The trouble with buying a kit of a stock pen is all the dimensional lumber is perfect. In my eyes, nothing could look less real. If a rail or post need replacing the guys are not going to worry if a 2" x 8" is replaced with a 2" x 10" or a row of square post have round replacements in them. How about a few 8" x 8" post in a row of original 6" x 6" post.
I have spent time on the ranch and if something needs replacing you go behind the barn and find something that will do the job. Also, make sure to leave unpainted boards and post as the only time they ever see paint is when they are new.
To represent the gunk that is the floor in the pens you should try tile grout painted to the desired colour of the region represented, taking into account the time of year and weather at the time.
I would find it difficult to over weather a stock yard. Good luck.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
You might have success by contacting the CNR Historical Society (formerly CNR sig), although I just went through an on-line list of their CN Lines magazine, and the only reference in the index regarding "stock" was in reference to Fowler stockcars, in Volume 5, Number 1.
The was an informative article on stockcars and stock yards in the June '87 issue of RMC, but it's not specific to the CNR. I used it to scratchbuild my own stockyards, but mine are of my own design and also not CNR specific.
I used Evergreen strip styrene, .080"x.080" for the posts and .030"x.080" for the boards - a bit on the heavy side, but sturdier than more to-scale material, and I don't think that it looks too clunky. All of the strip material was distressed by dragging a razor saw over all four sides before cutting it to length.I used solvent-type cement to assemble the individual parts into full-length sections with the corner posts (and one or two intermediate posts on long sections) longer than the rest so that they could be inserted into holes drilled into the plywood scenery base under this area of the layout. The assembly was done on a sheet of 1/4" balsa, atop which I placed a pencil drawing on paper of the post and board layout, then covered that with waxed paper. Using straight pins, it was relatively simple to lay out an entire side, then apply the cement. The individual sides were then assembled on the layout.
The covered pens are mostly for pigs, but can handle sheep, goats, and calves, too:
I have smaller pens at various places around the layout, too, and all are fairly high like the one shown, as most also ship horses, especially when the Royal Winter Fair is on at the CNE grounds in Toronto:
That allows me to use this CNR express horse car:
Wayne
Lots of detail in just this one photo:
http://www.shorpy.com/node/10869?size=_original#caption
Kansas City, 1906. Brick pavers on the ground, feed troughs, very well maintained. Interesting to note the block and pen numbering detail. Gotta keep track of what animals are where.
A decent drawing of a PRR stock chute is here:
http://www.wvrrmuseum.org/displaysite/html/29/image2.gif
When you have the time, read Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle, Lots of descriptive information there about where our sausage comes from!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
Suddenly, I'm hungry for a Bubba Burger
Have fun, Ed
A little bit of history for You, about shipping, cleaning pen's and a whole bunch more from one of the largest stockyards ever..along with photos of pen's, buildings and tons more. should give You a whole bunch of idea's:
http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Paper/ChigUnionStockYard.pdf
I lived roughly 1 1/2 miles from it in the 40's/50's era (fortunately up-wind) could tell You all kinds of stories about it.
Also a link to scale dimensional lumber from Northeastern stripwood that will be very useful to You.
http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/NESLCatalog_2013.pdf
Once on site..scroll down a little for charts...I do a lot of scratch building with their scale lumber and I would recommend their Flamingo glue for wood, matboard. Very strong, dries quick, I had no problems with it at all.
Good Luck on Your Project!
Frank
Edit : Scratch built back/side porch with their lumber and glue. Stairs, floor, styrene borrowed from other kits:
Hi Brent
Thanx for the reply.
BATMAN The trouble with buying a kit of a stock pen is all the dimensional lumber is perfect. In my eyes, nothing could look less real. If a rail or post need replacing the guys are not going to worry if a 2" x 8" is replaced with a 2" x 10" or a row of square post have round replacements in them. How about a few 8" x 8" post in a row of original 6" x 6" post.
Yes, I noticed in a couple of the photos I looked at that the wood used was somewhat patched. It goes against my natural tendencies to build something that is not "perfect". However, since I am almost 70 years old, eyes and dexterity not what they used to be, it is far "easier" to achieve these results - even if unintentional :-)
BATMAN I have spent time on the ranch and if something needs replacing you go behind the barn and find something that will do the job. Also, make sure to leave unpainted boards and post as the only time they ever see paint is when they are new.
Would the maintenance on a rail stock pen be any different than a ranch? I'm a city boy, so I have no experience to draw on. As to painting, my plan was to treat the wood with driftwood stain (HunterLine) and when that is dry, very sparingly drybrush white paint over that.
BATMAN To represent the gunk that is the floor in the pens you should try tile grout painted to the desired colour of the region represented, taking into account the time of year and weather at the time.
If you are building a high volume stock yard that would be found in an urban situation the Veterinarian and other inspectors would insist on having things in ship shape condition. The paint on the fencing would be well maintained as this helps fend off disease. My wife is a Vet and when house calls to a kennel or a farm to try and find causes for outbreaks of one thing or another have often lead to unpainted wood surfaces in structures housing animals.
Ed's excellent Shorpy pic shows a cobblestone floor in the pens, again this would be found in a high volume stock yard. Hooved animals get good traction on cobblestones and thus are less likely to injure themselves in all the pushing and shoving.
In some cities, you can still see some of the old cobblestones on the streets and around the old warehouse districts and dockyards. The cobblestones right at the loading dock and on the dock or anywhere horse drawn wagons would be stopped for loading and unloading are much smaller than the ones used in the streets. The reason for this is, the horses would get better traction and that helps to get a fully loaded wagon rolling. The stones will increase in size as you get away from the loading dock as the horse and wagon pick up speed. Also on city streets, you might find large blocks for the road surface, however, you will often see that on hills they go back to the smaller cobblestones, again this was for traction for the horses .
If modeling a rural pen, the ground would be dirt and maintenance, while sound would not look as pretty. The pens I am familiar with were only used a few times year and a drive out for an inspection a day or two before use was required.
Check out Ed's plans/drawings of the pens for sizes. Remember that often things are built in multiples of 4', 8' 12' and so on, just because that is the size lumber comes in. A ramp may be 8' wide just because that is how long the boards were. Why go to all the trouble of cutting up the stuff just to throw it on the scrap pile.
If I recall the rail length between the post was often 10'. I also remember using small logs to replace a rail in a pinch.
You can buy styrene sheets of cobblestones if you choose to model that kind of floor. You can also go to Google Images and print off some cobblestone sheets and glue them down. Once covered with hay and poop you will have to look close to see it is just paper.
I am also a city boy. I just spent as much time as I could on "the ranch" as we use to say. I could never sit still for long and would get to work along with everyone else. You become a jack of all trades very quickly. My best memory would be getting up before everyone else and saddling up a horse and going for a long ride by myself as the sun was coming up.
Hello Wayne,
Thanx for the info.
doctorwayne You might have success by contacting the CNR Historical Society (formerly CNR sig),
You might have success by contacting the CNR Historical Society (formerly CNR sig),
I appreciate the plug for the CNRHA! I was the original instigator of that wondergul group back in 1989 (origianally the CN Lines SIG). I actually posted a message to CNet (the CNRHA forum) a few months back. There is a wealth of information there.
doctorwayne The was an informative article on stockcars and stock yards in the June '87 issue of RMC, but it's not specific to the CNR. I used it to scratchbuild my own stockyards, but mine are of my own design and also not CNR specific.
Thanx for including the photos. Very nice. I only have enough space for maybe 3 pens and a small supply/feed shed, but your pics give me some ideas.
doctorwayne I used Evergreen strip styrene,
I used Evergreen strip styrene,
I considered using styrene, but decided to use wood for this project. I have not built much since 1990 ad am slowly getting back into the groove. I felt the need to build in wood. :-)
doctorwayne The assembly was done on a sheet of 1/4" balsa,
The assembly was done on a sheet of 1/4" balsa,
I was gonna use a wood or Masonite for my base, but was afraid the scenery process would severely warp it. Did you have any serious warping?
I like the horse car. Where did you find plans for it?
It's always nice to see a fellow CNR modeller's work.
Hi Ed,
Wow, that's a lotta gret stuff. Thanx!
We don't have Bubba here, but I get your drift.
I saw a photo of the Chicago Union Stock Yards and was overwhelmed. Can you imagine the small? YEEeeee.
Thanx again.
Hello Frank,
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.
zstripe A little bit of history for You, about shipping, cleaning pen's and a whole bunch more from one of the largest stockyards ever..along with photos of pen's, buildings and tons more. should give You a whole bunch of idea's: http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Paper/ChigUnionStockYard.pdf lived roughly 1 1/2 miles from it in the 40's/50's era (fortunately up-wind) could tell You all kinds of stories about it. Also a link to scale dimensional lumber from Northeastern stripwood that will be very useful to You.
lived roughly 1 1/2 miles from it in the 40's/50's era (fortunately up-wind) could tell You all kinds of stories about it.
My pens will be a bit smaller :-) I bet you were happy you were upwind!
i have the NorthEastern Scale Lumber catalog on my computer. Are they the wood vendor that is closing up shop? I just bought a load of Mt Albert wood. Speaking of which, what is the best way to de-fuzz scale wood? Use a scuff pad?
Thanx for the pics. Nice work.
Mike
MikeyChrisMy pens will be a bit smaller :-) I bet you were happy you were upwind! i have the NorthEastern Scale Lumber catalog on my computer. Are they the wood vendor that is closing up shop? I just bought a load of Mt Albert wood. Speaking of which, what is the best way to de-fuzz scale wood? Use a scuff pad?
Mike,
You betcha!...about the upwind. Interesting thing was...between the stockyards and where I lived..was the winding Chgo river, Flavor Kist cookies and Juicy Fruit gum plants. You had a very large variety of smells...rarely, the stock yards. Interesting part was...they had 35 square miles of pens. Many, many people worked there.
As far as Northeastern shutting down, that's the first I heard of it. I also use Mt. Albert. As far as the fuzzys go....I hardly ever had any problem with that...they were non-existant on the wood I got...unlike Balsa. If I did want to sand any parts, I used 3m 400 grit paper, and most times just used brown/grey stain from Testers Createfx stain....You can get cheaper..but I sort of like it. Bottle has a BB in it to help mix the stain and only one coat is needed, also seals the wood, it is solvent based though, that may bother some people.
Also Thanks for Your kind words....Along with trains, in the 50's, I built quite a few wood ships..that occasionally I still delve in.....one still stares at Me from accross the room, waiting for Me to complete some spars and rigging..unfortunately My shoulders won't allow Me to complete it...mind says yeah! Body say's No...Maybe one day!!!
Good luck In Your Project!
MikeyChrisWe don't have Bubba here, but I get your drift.
Hi, MikeyChris,
I wouldn't exactly recommend them but it's fun to say Bubba Burger!
https://bubbafoods.com/about/
I think they're about 25% fat and probably some "Pink Slime" in there, too
I bought a bunch of the Woodland Scenics cattle (and cows) and they came with cow pies but I'm sure they're easy to make with a little thin casting plaster.
Take some waxed paper and tape it down, then put about 2 or 3 tablespoons of thin plaster into a regular sandwich plastic bag. Twist it shut and snip a tiny corner off. Now you have a disposable, mini pastry bag. You can have fun squeezing out all the cow pies you might need.
Like snowflakes, no two will be the same. Early ones will be watery, as the plaster gets a little thicker so do the droppings! Try dropping them from various heights.
Peel them off the waxed paper when set. Of course, stain them your favorite cow-pie flavor!
Isn't this a great hobby!
This is the Walthers stock pens. A bit clunky and overscale on the lumber IMO. I have it just tacked together here—debating weather I really want a pen on the layout (so far it is not looking too feasible). Of course, the Walthers kit is too neat and the "wood" needs to be distressed a bit more. Suckling calves in the pens? Maybe mom couldn't get a calf-sitter? Or they're destined for the veal department
Regards, Ed
MikeyChris I considered using styrene, but decided to use wood for this project. I have not built much since 1990 ad am slowly getting back into the groove. I felt the need to build in wood. :-)
I chose styrene for construction because it's faster with which to work and much more durable than the basswood models which I made before Evergreen started making their extensive line of scratchbuilding materials.
Had I wanted the pens to look less well-maintained, I would have painted them to look like bare, weathered wood, then added the white paint in a manner that looked more worn and weatherbeaten. The photos are older ones, and I've since added more weathering, even though the cattle still appear to be suffering from constipation.
MikeyChris doctorwayne The assembly was done on a sheet of 1/4" balsa, I was gonna use a wood or Masonite for my base, but was afraid the scenery process would severely warp it. Did you have any serious warping?
I used the balsa only as an aid for assembly of the planks and posts, building each of the multiple pen walls into sub-assemblies, which were then put together on the plywood layout top used in this particular area.A pencil drawing, on paper, of the plank and post spacing was placed over the balsa, then covered with a sheet of waxed paper. This allowed me to use straight pins to hold the components in alignment on the drawing, which was visible through the waxed paper. The pins placed to denote one side (top or bottom) of the planks can be left in place for all similar sides of the pens, with fewer, temporary ones installed on the opposite side of individual boards to keep them aligned while glue is applied. With styrene, the solvent-type cement dries quickly, and those temporary pins can be removed within minutes, so that the completed wall can be lifted and a new one layed out.The waxed paper was used to prevent the cement from sticking the assembled walls to the paper drawing, and would serve the same purpose when building yours from wood, regardless of the type of glue or cement used.
MikeyChris I like the horse car. Where did you find plans for it? It's always nice to see a fellow CNR modeller's work.
Sounds like you have this covered. Another source for plans are the SP standards books. Obviously they are for a different road, but I find them to be a good starting point for lumber call outs etc. on common RR structures.
Here is a pen built from the SP book:
Have fun with the project,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Thanx for the photo Guy. It all helps.
I too have Gay's book on CNR Passenger cars, as well as Dale Wilsons's books, Ian's Steam books and a host of others. When I started the CN Lines SIG back in 1989 it was mainly because there was so little info about the CNR that I could find (I live near New Orleans Louisiana). That has certainly changed in the last 25 years, as has the availablility of CNR models. The CN Lines SIG, GTWHS and CVRHS all started within 6 monthhs. It was time! No if someone would cover the DWP...
Thans agai Wayne. You have provide much helpful info. Are you a member of CNRHA?
No, not a member, as my budget for trains has always been fairly limited, and even moreso now with retirement. My friend is a member, though, and I have found the magazines and their website helpful. They even offered to make a number plate for a locomotive I'm going to do, as it seems that that one was overlooked when the photo etching for those sheets was done. I'm hoping to make a proper one by removing the last numeral from one otherwise suitable plate and adding only that numeral from another....I'm not sure that it can be done, but can't pass up an opportunity to have an unique locomotive.
You may want to look at the Canadian Pacific Historical Association's website:
http://www.cptracks.ca/cpdocs/main.asp
Registration is required but it is free. They have documentation of Canadian Pacific Railway standard plans and structures, including stock pens. They also have a section on CNR specific plans but no CNR stock pens.