I know that the Empire Builder was Great Northern's Premier Passenger train and that it began operations in 1929.Before that the Oriental Limited was Great Northerns premier passenger train and that it began operations in 1905. These were GN's two named passenger trains.
In 1947 Great Northern introduced the all new E-series diesel engines and the new streamlined heavyweight coaches painted in the "new" Empire Builder colours of Orange Dark Green and Orange with Yellow Pin Stipes. In 1951 Great Northern bought all new steamlined coaches with the new 4 wheel trucks.
Did Great Northern ever repaint the originall Empire Builder HW coaches in the new Empire Builder colours?
Did the existing Steam Engines every pull these newly repainted coaches?
I have found a number of pictures from the ealy 1950's showing the GN steam pulling heavyweight coaches painted in the old Pullman Green with Gold lettering but none with coaches painted in the Empire Builder colours.
The H/W 'Luxury' coaches from the H/W 'Empire Builder' were painted in the new streamliner paint scheme and assigned to the Badger/Gopher trains between the Twin Cities and Duluth. These trains were usually pulled by diesels. I am sure thare may have been a run pulled by a steamer. Usually passenger FT sets(250 or 251) were the normal power until the E7's were released from trans-con service and migrated to local/regional trains like this.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
don7 I know that the Empire Builder was Great Northern's Premier Passenger train and that it began operations in 1929.Before that the Oriental Limited was Great Northerns premier passenger train and that it began operations in 1905. These were GN's two named passenger trains. In 1947 Great Northern introduced the all new E-series diesel engines and the new streamlined heavyweight coaches painted in the "new" Empire Builder colours of Orange Dark Green and Orange with Yellow Pin Stipes.
In 1947 Great Northern introduced the all new E-series diesel engines and the new streamlined heavyweight coaches painted in the "new" Empire Builder colours of Orange Dark Green and Orange with Yellow Pin Stipes.
No. The streamlined heavyweight coaches had been built years before and stayed with the old Empire builder consist, which became the late Oriental Limited. They were not painted orange and green at that time. GN bought lightweight coaches for the 1947 Builder; those were painted in the new colors, which was introduced with the '47 train.
In 1951 Great Northern bought all new steamlined coaches with the new 4 wheel trucks.
In 1951, GN replaced the 1947 Builder with an all-new train. With new coaches.
Yes. Based on Jim's comment, that would have been about 1952-53. The cars had been in service on the Oriental Limited until it was replaced in 1951 by the 1947 Builder trains, which were re-named Western Star. The Oriental Limited's cars were then surplus. And available for re-use on other trains.
Keep in mind, by the way, that there were two lettering schemes on the orange and green cars: "Empire Builder" and "Great Northern". The former was used only on cars in that service. The latter was used on cars in all other service. Including the Western Star. Consequently, the streamlined heavyweight cars were only lettered in the latter scheme.
No.
The orange and green scheme was, at first, only applied to the lightweight Empire Builder. It gradually crept over the whole fleet. But after steam in passenger service was gone. Or so it is believed. I don't think anyone has photo evidence of steam pulling orange and green cars. It will be marvelous when/if it shows up. BUT. Keep in mind that if it DID happen, it was extremely unusual. So, I think if it had happened, someone would have taken a picture. I know I would have.
Oh. And speaking of unusual. There was at least one heavyweight GN car that was painted for the Empire Builder in the orange and green scheme. It was not a coach.
Ed
Jim,
Perhaps you can solve a problem for me. I note, from a GN diagram, that 275A (an F3A built in 1946) had a boiler water capacity of 1466 gallons. And it's listed as a single unit, when all the other F's, passenger and freight, are shown as sets of two or more units. Do you have any idea what service this guy was set up for? It seems like it would have been a single unit at the head of a passenger train. Any idea????
jrbernierNot near my documentation, but GN bought an 'AA' set of F's with a S/G in one unit and a large internal boiler water tank in what is normally the S/G compartment. They would run as a pair... Jim
This one had both the boiler water and also the S/G: Vapor CFK-4225.
The so-called "Empire Builder" paint scheme (Omaha Orange, Pullman Green with yellow stripes between) was first used in 1941 IIRC on some early GN diesel switchers. GN bought FT's in 1942 or '43 that were in the "EB" scheme. They ran between Mpls/St.Paul and Duluth/Superior daily - they'd pull the Gopher or Badger passenger train during the day, and return that night with freight.
GN's passenger E-units arrived in 1945, two years before the first streamlined Empire Builder with lightweight cars arrived in 1947. The E-units overheated in the mountains, and GN began using F-units instead by the end of the decade. I imagine there were situations where one or both E-units failed and a steam engine (probably a 4-8-4 or 4-8-2) filled in for them, but I don't recall seeing any pics of that. During the flood of 1951, several railroads that served St.Paul Union Depot (next to the Mississippi) had to replace diesels with steam, as the diesels traction motors in the trucks would short out in the water. I've seen color movie film of the streamlined Rock Island Rocket being steam-hauled for example.
In the thirties the Empire Builder had some "semi-streamlined" coaches; cars that were riveted and had six-wheel trucks like a heavyweight car, but had the single vestibule and low roofline of a streamlined car. These cars, in the orange and green, were common on the Gopher/Badger in the 1960's.
7j43k Jim, Perhaps you can solve a problem for me. I note, from a GN diagram, that 275A (an F3A built in 1946) had a boiler water capacity of 1466 gallons. And it's listed as a single unit, when all the other F's, passenger and freight, are shown as sets of two or more units. Do you have any idea what service this guy was set up for? It seems like it would have been a single unit at the head of a passenger train. Any idea???? Ed
wjstix The so-called "Empire Builder" paint scheme (Omaha Orange, Pullman Green with yellow stripes between) was first used in 1941 IIRC on some early GN diesel switchers.
The so-called "Empire Builder" paint scheme (Omaha Orange, Pullman Green with yellow stripes between) was first used in 1941 IIRC on some early GN diesel switchers.
That doesn't seem to fit with the illustration of GN 5332 on page 249 of "Great Northern Color Pictorial Volume 1". It was one of the two switchers that were the last ones delivered in 1941, and it is black. I'd sure like to see evidence of EB painted switchers in these early years. One possibility would be some or all of the NW3's. There IS a photo of NW3 5405 on page 255 of the above book. It is in EB paint and the date has to be before it was renumbered--thus earlier than March 1944. But, of course, by then the 400's were delivered in EB, anyway.
GN bought FT's in 1942 or '43 that were in the "EB" scheme. They ran between Mpls/St.Paul and Duluth/Superior daily - they'd pull the Gopher or Badger passenger train during the day, and return that night with freight.
THAT is very interesting. I am so used to thinking (incorrectly) that the 400's were the first road diesels for the GN (end of 1943). But it was, in fact, two years earlier that GN's first FT road diesels were delivered. And they WERE delivered in EB paint. Even though diesel switchers were delivered at the same time in black.
wjstix Just an edumacated guess...FT diesels were 1350 HP engines, designed to be 2-unit sets. Normally they were bought as A-B sets with a drawbar, but you could get them A-A too. An A-B set of FT's 2700 HP was about the same power as a typical 2-8-2, and an A-B-B-A set's 5400 HP were about like a Mallet. Many railroads found they had a "Goldilocks" problem - they needed about 4000 HP for a typical mainline train, so one A-B set wasn't enough, a full A-B-B-A set was too much. So, after WW2, many roads who had bought FTs bought F2 and later F3 single A units to mate with their existing FT A-B sets to make three unit diesel sets of 4050 HP or 4200 HP respectively. I'm not sure GN did that, but several Midwest railroads (Rock Island, C&NW, Burlington) did, so it wouldn't be surprising if they did.
Certainly a possibility. There are some AB passenger sets that this guy could have run with. But, judging from the layout of the diagram book (1952), it seemed that GN was still viewing road diesels as unified sets. And this one is the only road diesel listed as a single unit. Perhaps this reflects that GN was just starting to realize the flexibility of the MU concept. And this unit was the first example. It's a puzzlement. I WAS sort of hoping that the loco was assigned as a single unit to some semi-obscure train.
All that said, it still should be noted that this A unit was listed as carrying quite a bit of water. 300 gallons was not at all the max that would fit in an A.
IIRC GN bought some "switcher" diesels that it used as road switchers before WW2. These were basically switchers, but going on slow speed branchlines they didn't really need road unit trucks. I'm pretty sure some of these were green and yellow, but I'd have to look to see if it was before or after the FTs arrived, might have been after. It's correct that the early GN diesel switchers were all black, basically painted like steam engines with a similar herald etc.
wjstix IIRC GN bought some "switcher" diesels that it used as road switchers before WW2. These were basically switchers, but going on slow speed branchlines they didn't really need road unit trucks. I'm pretty sure some of these were green and yellow, but I'd have to look to see if it was before or after the FTs arrived, might have been after. It's correct that the early GN diesel switchers were all black, basically painted like steam engines with a similar herald etc.
That sounds like the NW3's. They were built 1939-1942. They had what appear to be regular Blomberg road trucks. There's a photo of 5405 in orange and green. It was delivered in 3/42 and renumbered in 1944. Earlier ones, perhaps, were in black. Or not. And they had steam generators.
I think all the other pre-war switchers were just switchers. And that there were no road switchers.
I'll check over the weekend. The ones I'm thinking of were slightly earlier, and were really just diesel switchers used on one or two branch lines. At slow speeds, it didn't really matter. The MN&S line I grew up by used SW-1200s on freight trains up until the Soo bought them in the early eighties.
Well, I went thru my GN books and didn't find it, I might be thinking of something that was in the GNRHS "Goat" sometime in the last 20 years...so odds are I'll never find it. I just recall that GN had some branchlines in MN or ND that they decided to run with their then-new (late 1930's) diesel switchers. These weren't NW-3s, they didn't have road trucks or steam generators, were just standard switchers. Most likely they were black, I do think the FT's might have been the first "EB" painted engines.
It´s interesting to see how many GN heavyweight cars in the green and orange Empire Builder scheme have been produced in HO scale (Athearn, IHC/Rivarossi, Bachmann, Walthers). This made me think complete GN heavyweight trains painted in these colors would of course exist. Thanks for clearing this up here. So if I would model the 1947-1951 Oriental Limited, I could actually use the green 1929 Empire Builder heavyweight consist for it since a repainting of these cars into the new paint scheme still didn´t happen during this time, right? By the way: was the Oriental Limited still all steam powered in 1950/1951?
De Luxe So if I would model the 1947-1951 Oriental Limited, I could actually use the green 1929 Empire Builder heavyweight consist for it since a repainting of these cars into the new paint scheme still didn´t happen during this time, right? By the way: was the Oriental Limited still all steam powered in 1950/1951?
So if I would model the 1947-1951 Oriental Limited, I could actually use the green 1929 Empire Builder heavyweight consist for it since a repainting of these cars into the new paint scheme still didn´t happen during this time, right? By the way: was the Oriental Limited still all steam powered in 1950/1951?
From page 50 of "Great Northern Pictorial-Volume 4" by John F. Strauss, Jr.:
"The ORIENTAL LIMITED returned [in 1947] to service as a steam-powered transcontinental passenger train...within its first year of operation it was assigned three Passenger F's, usually as an A-B-A set. During its four-year period...assigned cars were repainted by the car shops in EB colors."
He notes one undated 1947 consist with GN 355A,B,C. GN certainly wanted to dieselize their passenger trains as soon as possible, as a PR move. So I expect that, if you were doing 1947, steam would be at the front. In 1948, it was probably quite unusual. In 1949, probably extremely rare. Or not at all.
From other comments, I get the impression that, even in 1951, most of the cars would still be green. So, in 1947, the train would have been all green. And in 1951, NOT all green. But certainly not all orange and green. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
I did a quick scan of Pat Dorin's "Great Northern - Lines East" with my morning coffee today. He notes that when the streamlined Empire Builder cars came, the heavyweight cars were re-lettered from "Empire Builder" to "Great Northern", and became the new Oriental Limited until enough new EB streamlined sets came in 1951 to bump the 1947 down to the Oriental Ltd., which then became the Western Star with the Oriental Ltd. name discontinued.
From what I could gather, the cars during that time were just Pullman green. It can be a little tricky with GN because, except for head-end cars (baggage, RPOs) they didn't so much repaint cars as rebuild and repaint them. A heavyweight coach might be rebuild with the clerestory roof replaces with a flatter 'streamlined' type roof, air conditioning added, and then be repainted in the orange and green. Sometimes, unless you can see the six-wheel trucks (rather than the streamlined cars four-wheel trucks) it can be hard to pick out which was which in a train.
GN did it's best to dieselize passenger trains as soon as possible, but keep in mind GM and other diesel builders often had 1-2 year wait times after WW2, so I suspect it wouldn't be unheard of to see a 1948 Oriental Ltd. being pulled for part of it's journey with a 4-8-4 or 4-8-2.
Unfortunately, apparently the streamlined EB was such a big deal that many folks at the time took pictures of it, but apparently few took pics of the 'old fashioned' 1947-51 Oriental Limited, so there's not much to go by.