Hello,
was the emd FP-7 and FP-9 locomotives used on freight trains. I live in australia and assumed that they were used for both passenger and freight trains. I have noticed they were used on freight trains on both jim eudaly's and mike burgett's chesapeake & ohio model railroads. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Regards Matthew Redden
Western Pacific FP7's were used in freight service after the California Zephyr was discontinued. http://www.wplives.com/motivepower/CabUnits.html
"C&O FP7 #8004 leads a freight across the Wabash River at Peru, Ind.," http://www.cohs.org/repository/archives/thumb/cogh/cogh-30.jpg
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Some related info on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FP7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FP9
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
The FP7 & 9 was EMD's answer to railroads that needed the extra pulling power of the F type locomotive since all wheels were powered but the shorter length of the standard F type did not allow enough room for the steam heating generator and water tanks.
The FP7 and 9s were four feet longer to accommodate the steam generator and still have all axels powered (the center axle on an E series was an idler just to reduce wheel loading or support more weight) generally to provide higher tractive effort for hillier terrain. Another consideration was the gear ratio which could either provide higher speed at the sacrifice of tractive effort or the other way 'round.
So, in short, yes—the FP7 and FP9s were designed to serve in freight and passenger duties. In later years, cash-strapped railroads that had plenty of E-7 and 8 passenger engines that found less and less need for that service were re-geared to a higher ratio to be used in freight service. That center idler axel made them a bit slippery so it was a bit of a compromise until dedicated freight locomotives could be purchased (Erie-Lackawanna was one such railroad using E-8s in freight)
There were 86 FP9s built and 378 FP7s.
Hope that helps, Ed
gmpullman The FP7 and 9s were four feet longer to accommodate the steam generator and still have all axels powered...
The FP7 and 9s were four feet longer to accommodate the steam generator and still have all axels powered...
There were many "just F's" that had steam generators and all axles powered. The GN and the NP come to mind. I believe that the FP's extra length was ONLY to allow for greater water capacity.
Ed
gmpullman So, in short, yes—the FP7 and FP9s were designed to serve in freight and passenger duties.
So, in short, yes—the FP7 and FP9s were designed to serve in freight and passenger duties.
I disagree. Take the boiler equipped GN and NP F's. And the NP FP's. They were NOT designed to serve in freight service. Sure, they could pull freight cars if they had to. But you will be hard pressed to show photos of GN and NP passenger F's doing so.
Those two railroads did not view them as dual purpose locomotives.
I know far less about other railroads, and would like to hear about passenger F's and FP's that were also regularly used in freight service. Perhaps the C&O locomotive noted above is one. Or perhaps it has been reassigned to freight service.
When passenger service declined in the US and Amtrak took over, railroads did have passenger F's and FP's available for freight work. And they became defacto freight engines, as also noted earlier about the WP locos. But not by design.
I believe the general case is that FP's were bought for sole use as passenger engines, and, when passenger service was eliminated, were then "demoted" to a sole use as freight engines. I would like to hear about exceptions to this "rule".
PRR purchased FP7s as "emergency" passenger power that could be used on freight when not needed for passenger service.
It depends on the time frame you're looking at. As noted, railroads normally bought FP's for passenger service because of their added space for water - an F unit could have a steam generator, but it's water capacity was very limited. This meant that even trains with 3-4 passenger cars sometimes had to have a A and B F-units together on a run, primarily so the B unit could provide steam heat. You could get by on that train with one FP.
But other than the steam generator and water, the only difference between passenger and freight Fs, GPs, SDs, or FPs was the gearing ratio...which was changeable in the railroad's shops. So yes, many FPs were bought as passenger engines, but after Amtrak were re-geared for freight service and served many years as freight engines.
Soo Line 2500, now used at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum's North Shore Scenic RR, is a good example. After SOO cut back and eventually dropped passenger service, 2500 spent many years in freight service on the SOO, I believe even pulling an ore train on occassion.
Whether passenger Fs with steam generators were used, or FPs, and whether exclusively in passenger or freight, depends on the railroad, the year, and the season. In addition, when Fs and FPs were ordered in the late 1940s and early 1950s, many railroads still followed their practice with steam and ordered each new loco with a specific job in mind.
The Santa Fe ordered dual service F7s in the 300 class, in 2, 3, and 4 unit sets in the warbonnet scheme. In many cases, they filled in on summer-season passenger extras that were chartered by travel agencies but ran on freight the rest of the year. But they never had FPs.
On the other hand, the SP had both F7s with steam generators and FP7s, all in black widow. Both types could be found subbing on name trains in early years, and they gradually replaced Es and PAs in later years. The Fs ran on passenger until fairly late; the FPs lasted to Amtrak.
The UP had a small number of FP7s that it got as bargains when a Mexican order fell through. Apparently the UP never used them in passenger service.
The individual cases are all fascinating, but they're unique.
I think knowledgable folks will find all kinds of exceptions in history from various railroads.
My knowledge only extends to the D&RGW which I have studied. They bought no FP7's in terms of catelog, designation or labels, but 2 of their EMD F units were "short FP7" never-the-less; apparently GN or NP also bought such short boiler equipped F7A units.
Incidentally - the old Athearn (Globe) blue box F7A had boiler details molded into the rear of the roof, which most F7A's did not have and I always thought was odd. So in real life a very few F7A's did have this - two D&RGW F7A's and a few from GN or NP, I don't recall which. The guru's of those RR's can chime in.
D&RGW F7A's #5571 and 5574 were delivered from EMD with boilers in their car bodies and could be pressed into service as lone passenger power and provide steam heat. They were delivered as ABBA sets with steam boiler equipped B units.
There were two other F7ABBA sets D&RGW purchased with steam boiler equipped B units and controls in the A units. I believe these sets were used in both freight and passenger service. Those number series were #5551, 5552, 5553,5554 and 5561, 5562, 5563, 5564 (in addition to the 5571 - 5574 series).
D&RGW also had 3 F3ABBA sets which were outfitted the same way, with steam generators in the B units. They were purchased for passenger service, indeed, two of those sets ended up pulling the California Zephyr as their primary duties for many years until retirement in at the end of 1965. Interestingly, during the first months of service, those F3's were used in freight service - there are photo's of them pulling blocks of ice-reefers in my Rio Grande Diesels books. No, they are not designated FP7's but why let nomenclature get in the way. The B units had steam generators for the life of the sets and these F3's were basically kept as ABBA sets from cradle to retirement.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
There are no pat answers here.
Many roads did prefer F units for passenger service in mountainous territory. Santa Fe is a good example. B units had space for water storage because of the lack of a cab. A units suffered in this regard. B&O (and possibly others) bought F3A units for freight service and operated them in 2 unit A-A sets with a steam generator in one unit and extra water capacity in the other. This made them available for standby passenger service, or for use on unscheduled extra passenger moves. B&O also bought F3AB sets that were specifically intended for passenger service in the mountains.
Seeing the demand for B-B passenger diesels, General Motors designed the FP7 (and its successor the FP9) to be 4' longer than the standard F7A or F9A so that extra water could be carried. One purchaser might not always use them the same way that another purchaser might.
Except for the differences in length, plus the presence of the steam generator and its water supply, these engines were basically the same as an F7A or an F9A. Gear ratios could be installed for high speed or low speed, and could be changed if the railroad wished. As mentioned, the PRR's FP7's were usually used in freight service, but were available for passenger service in an emergency, and most of them wore a freight paint scheme. So FP7's and FP9's could, and often were, used in freight service on several, but maybe not all, railroads.
Tom
Edit: B&O's passenger F3's were eventually regeared for freight service.
I apologize for the misrepresentations in my first reply. I will be sure to be more careful in trying to cover all the possible variations where a particular locomotive may or may not have been used in service.
I will defer to those with more knowledge in the future.
Happy Railroading, Ed
Re: The UP FP7's
From Ed Austin's "Union Pacific Diesels in Color, Volume One: 1934-1959":
"Originally U.P. assigned the FP7's to passenger service for which they were intended. However, they were regeared for freight service and renumbered from #911 and 912 to #1498 and 1499 in February 1956."
riogrande5761 Incidentally - the old Athearn (Globe) blue box F7A had boiler details molded into the rear of the roof, which most F7A's did not have and I always thought was odd. So in real life a very few F7A's did have this - two D&RGW F7A's and a few from GN or NP, I don't recall which.
Incidentally - the old Athearn (Globe) blue box F7A had boiler details molded into the rear of the roof, which most F7A's did not have and I always thought was odd. So in real life a very few F7A's did have this - two D&RGW F7A's and a few from GN or NP, I don't recall which.
All of GN's passenger F7A's were boiler equipped. As were NP's. As were SP&S's. And, for these railroads, so were their F3A's and F9A's. In total, about 100.
But certainly, the vast majority of F7A's were boilerless. On the plus side of casting these parts on: The Globe model was, I believe, first delivered as an undec kit. And I'd far rather file off those parts than add them. Perhaps this inspired their choice. Or perhaps not.
Espee aquired 16 FP7's numbers 6446-6461 in 1953 specfically to eliminate steam on secondary passenger trains, Alco PA's were the mainstay passenger power on the Shasta, Overland and Sunset Route route, FP7's became a fixture on the San Juaquin Daylight after 1954 when all passenger opertions south of Bakersfield were dieselized, late in 1956 SP aquired the lone FP7 rostered by the Cotton Belt as they cut back passenger operations, lacking dynamic brakes and signal lights it spent its career in the bay area on freight but retained its SG for emergency passenger service. All F7's were retired by 1973, the FP-7's were conveyed to Amtrak until retired in the late seventies. Although a duel service locomotive, SP had a long standing policy at that time of not using engines assigned to the passenger pool in freight service unless their existed no other power choices, thus freight assignments were rare.
Dave
7j43k All of GN's passenger F7A's were boiler equipped. As were NP's. As were SP&S's. And, for these railroads, so were their F3A's and F9A's. In total, about 100. But certainly, the vast majority of F7A's were boilerless. On the plus side of casting these parts on: The Globe model was, I believe, first delivered as an undec kit. And I'd far rather file off those parts than add them. Perhaps this inspired their choice. Or perhaps not. Ed
Admittedly I knew nothing about the northerns but I didn't realize they ALL had boilers. That was a surprise to me.
I had an undec set of Athearn F7ABB's I was going to set up for RGZ and had gone so far as to shave and file off those pesky steam generator details off the back end of the F7A - this was in the 1980's you see. Then I was stymied with out to get F9 details on the sides such as the vertical split louvers - with in a few years Stewart had released their F9A and well, that ended the Athearn kit bash effort. The furthest I had gotten was shaving off the roof over hang, steam gen details, adding the grab irons on the nose, spark arrestors on the roof, 48-inc DB fan, and couple other things - but the split verticle louvers was a tough one a the time, I don't think I could find any parts. I have a Genesis F9ABB set now - it's all moot.
West Coast S Although a duel service locomotive, SP had a long standing policy at that time of not using engines assigned to the passenger pool in freight service unless their existed no other power choices, thus freight assignments were rare. Dave
And then there were the SDP45's Weekend warriors on freight trains regularly. Trouble makers!
Yes, standard Fs had room for steam generators and water but the FP units had the extra length for more water capacity. It is my understanding the PRR used its FP7s as dual service freight/passenger units as there are many photos of them not long after delivery, pulling freight trains. Almost all were delivered in the single pin stripe Brunswick Green scheme with the exception of a small group that were delivered, along with a correspoinding small group of F7Bs, in the Tuscan Red multi-stripe scheme. They were handy for secondary trains, extras, troop trains, etc.
I fondly remember and photographed them in freight service in the early Penn Central years after they had been renumbered and used on the former Grand Rapids & Indiana btw Grand Rapids, Michigan and Cincinatti, Ohio. Some still had the keystones and pin stripes as late as 1972 but had long since been decommisioned from passenger service. There was no longer a need for back up passenger power. One railroader told me that we had the largest fleet of FP units anywhere in the U.S. on the Grand Rapids Branch even though there were maintained at Conway, PA.
Classic Trains recently did an feature on the F units that covers them from the FTs to the FL9 and also includes a special section on FP units. It was very informative with many color photos I had never seen before.
Victor A. Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana
True enough, those SDP45's did get around as did the trainmasters when they required truck overhauls which were performed in Los Angeles, thus they would be assigned to freight on the Coast Route, On several occasions I observed them passing through Glendale.
The Reading used FP7's. They looked at E units and (amazingly) NW2's but decided on FP7's since they owned F7's. Their engines were almost exclusively in passenger service, and 2 survived the RDG, CR, and SEPTA. Those two engines were used on the "Push-Pull" a 4 or 5 car commuter train between Reading and Phillie, they had a FP7 on each end with the MU cable hardwired across the tops of the cars.
Search for "Reading railroad push pull images" for pictures.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Northern Pacific had baggage cars that had large water tanks in them. Especially in very cold weather, they would be coupled right behind the diesels. They could then have hoses connected up between the car and the diesel ahead of it, to provide water for the steam generator in the diesel. The MN Transportation Museum has one of the NP head-end cars.
Greetings,
Wikipedia is in error when it comes to the Rock island. I have pictures of the FP-7s on passenger, freight, and a very few on commuters in Chicago. They were originally purchased in a passenger scheme.
Happy trains to you,
Bob L.
Modeling in N scale: Rock Island freight and passenger, with a touch of the following; Wabash Cannon Ball, CB&Q passenger, and ATSF freight and passenger. I played in Peoria (Heights).
Rock Island used the extra 4' to install belt driven train lighting generators for suburban service. Only had the ceiling mounted "Hatch" water tank which was one of their limitations for winter time main line passenger. FP7's had to take boiler water at Bureau when it was really cold and snowy. If you had E unit(s) with you and were able to maintain steam pressure without running everything wide open one could highball the FP7 water stop at Bureau.
I've seen numerous pictures of at least the 405, 406 and 410 in Suburban service during 1953.
As a side note PRR used a under frame mounted water tank on their FP7's.
Dick Haave
From a UP fan; the UP ran a rather ecclectic bunch of passenger power during the early transition to diesel power. The had E3, E6, E7 specifically for passenger, plus they bought a batch of F3s (A & B units) geared for passenger operations, and picked up a couple FP7s from a cancelled order to Mexico. They also had ALCO PAs, F-M "Erie Builts" and steam generators in the last few GP7s received. In 1950 the UP bought their first batch of EMD E8 units and found the unit they would standardize on. As more E8s (and later E9s) arrived other units were moved to branch line runs, were reassigned, or retired. One could still see odd units on secondary trains. If I remember right the pair of UP FP7s spend most of their passenger time on scondary or branch trains in the UP's Northwest District while E-units ruled the Streamliners. UP also had a fleet of express and mail trains and bought boiler-equipped power to handle that service. In the early 1960s the UP was buying some of their GP30B's with steam boilers and bought ten SDP35s. These were never intended for the premier trains and were intended to keep the mail and express trains rolling on time. So the use of the FP7 in freight service and/or passenger service changed over the years on the UP just as it did on other railroads.
Dick:
You are correct about the PRR mounting a water tank under the frame. It was at the very front in front of the fuel tank shaped like a barrel. It was mounted crosswise with the flat barrel ends visible on both sides. I recall that in the PC days, some still had them and some did not.
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7j43k I know far less about other railroads, and would like to hear about passenger F's and FP's that were also regularly used in freight service. Perhaps the C&O locomotive noted above is one. Or perhaps it has been reassigned to freight service.
The C&O's FP7s were used infrequently in passenger service. Most books indicate that the C&O saw them as freight locomotives that could be pressed into passenger service, if needed. With its sizeable fleet of E8s and E7s and a few dual-service BL2s, the C&O otherwise had a pretty good-sized stable of passenger power in the 1950s.
While delivered in the C&O's passenger paint scheme, the vast majority of photos show the FP7s being used in freight service. One photo I've seen of an FP7 in passenger service has it leading a BL2 out of Louisville in 1961 on the train that connected with the C&O's mainline passenger trains at Ashland, Kentucky.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
I thought the "FP" in FP-7 and FP-9 in EMD designation meant Freight / Passenger use. Just like it did for FP-45.
CMStPnP I thought the "FP" in FP-7 and FP-9 in EMD designation meant Freight / Passenger use. Just like it did for FP-45.
The "F" in FP45 refers to the full-width body, not "Freight".
You also had SDP40 and SDP45 units from EMD, which were standard hood type units but with a steam generator tacked on the end of the hood. (Actually, EL has some SDP45s *without* the steam generator option, just to get the longer frame and fuel tank.)
The "F" in EMD's FT and F2 models also did *not* stand for "Freight", but "Fourteen-hundred HP" (rounded up from 1350). Later upgrades to the F-series (F3, F7, F9) kept the letter even though it didn't match the HP anymore. As stated above, the "P" in FP7, FP9 really referred to the extra frame/body length for larger water tanks, as standard F series units could and often did also have steam generators.
Other early EMD models:
SW - Six hundred HP, Welded frame
SC - Six hundred HP, Cast frame
NW - Nine hundred HP, Welded frame
E - Eighteen hundred HP
eventually followed by such series as:
BL - branchline
GP - general purpose
SD - special duty
(The ones we're more familiar with today.)
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog