In prototypes on approach to a small yard or interchange, could a passing track serve as a lead in to the yard or does having a 3rd track to be a lead to the yard a Must?
A single switch off the passing siding into a small yard would and does work and the passing siding could be used as a yard lead as well with permission from the dispatcher.He would need to know the reason that passing siding is fouled.
These small yard is usually used by a local for rearranging their train or for holding overflow cars-these are the cars being held for industries that has a full siding.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It will depend somewhat on your era. The dispatcher wouldn't necessarily have to give permission even if the main line was involved.
Today, in CTC territory, the dispatcher may need to clear a signal or reverse a switch so needs to be contacted. Under OCS/MBS rules his permission is needed before using the main track, and may be needed to use the siding.
Under timetable and train order rules in unsignalled or ABS territory there were often defined yard limits that could be used without bothering the dispatcher. Switching moves would have to clear the main for the times of scheduled trains. Extra trains and (I think) lower class schedules would have to approach prepared to stop. The dispatcher did need to know if a siding was rendered unusable because of stored cars.
cx500 will depend somewhat on your era. The dispatcher wouldn't necessarily have to give permission even if the main line was involved.
On the PRR a tower operator could give the needed permission..
On the Chessie the DS had to give his blessing to foul his main line.Failure to obtain permission could and would result in receiving your time in the form of a final paycheck.
I'm sure under today's rules a track warrent or permit is needed to foul the main.
There is also "yard limits" (which despite the name applies on the main track, and technically can exist without an actual yard) which does allow trains or engines to use the main track within those limits for switching without contacting the dispatcher.
Since we're talking about *small* yards, there are plenty of examples out there with no leads at all, with all switching moves done directly on the main track. So despite what you've read, separate yard leads are not an absolute "must".
*However*, model railroads are shorter, with more locations closer together and hosting a relatively higher volume of trains than most prototypes, so it pays to understand why yard lead tracks are used, and for most model situations you'll find them useful to have more often than not.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acrThere is also "yard limits" (which despite the name applies on the main track, and technically can exist without an actual yard) which does allow trains or engines to use the main track within those limits for switching without contacting the dispatcher.
I would not risk my crew or my career by venturing forth onto the main line without notifying the DS and hearing what he has lined up yard limits or no..A simple radio or phone call to the DS could save lives and propery damage..
You see when the worst happens the company will want to point fingers to place blame and terminate employees..Makes the company look good in the eyes of the investigators since they too will point the blame fingers.
I also know when the NS local needs to switch Benson yard or make a runaround move here in Bucyrus,Oh they get permission to foul the main from the DS.Benson yard is used for holding cars bound for Transco for repairs.The runaround move is needed so the local can turn before heading back to Marion
This discussion comes up every time we venture into yard limits, Brakie operates under a very different set of rules than what is used in the rest of the country, especially the western half. His comments are pointed more at the Eastern roads, particularly the PRR which used tower operators, a method of operation rarely used west of the Mississippi.
On the Western roads the whole point of yard limits is to be able to use the main track without having to contact the dispatcher, so it was perfectly acceptable to enter a single main track in yard limits to make moves without contacting the dispatcher. In non-CTC area the dispatcher can't tell what moves the train crews are making anyway, so there is no prohibition for a train to use a siding, they can switch all day, they just can't leave cars fouling or blocking a passing siding without contacting the dispatcher. Any train can use a siding in single track outside of CTC.
At smaller yards There may or may not be a lead, the siding may be used as a lead or the main track. It depends on the frequency of the trains. If its a secondary route or a branch that only sees one or two trains a day then the odds are they will use the main track as the lead.
Another thing that is size and density sensitive is whether or not there are "arrival-departure" tracks. Model railroads tend to have them on all yards, on real railroads only the biggest yards had dedicated A/D tracks. Its handy to have one or more double ended tracks, but in a smaller yard, not dedicating tracks to A/D duties provides a lot of flexibility.
Another thing people get confused is that a train can switch industries and do local work enroute without yard limts or being a "work train". The difference is that it was very common on real railroads to have locals that traveled over a subdivision or portion of a subdivision (50-100 miles or so) doing local work while on a model railroad most local work ends up being done by "station switchers" who work only one station and all the industries are packed in that one spot.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanThis discussion comes up every time we venture into yard limits, Brakie operates under a very different set of rules than what is used in the rest of the country, especially the western half. His comments are pointed more at the Eastern roads, particularly the PRR which used tower operators, a method of operation rarely used west of the Mississippi.
Dave,I use the tower operators as a era means for those that model the tower era..On the Chessie we contacted the DS for permission after we looked at the train line up sheet..
I don't know of any PRR or Chessie conductor I worked with that wouldn't contact the DS for a time slot since freight trains did not run on a set time table schedule and there was no crystal ball in the cabin or caboose to see where those on coming trains was located..
Maybe where you come from you can foul the main at will without checking with the DS.I shudder at the thought.
Yard limit or no when the worst happens the blame fingers will be pointed.Its the way railroads and the FRA does business.You the conductor knew other trains would be using the track..You failed to keep informed of other train movements or whereabouts as stated under this or that rule(s) so you could clear in sufficient time for that train.
Safety first,last and always in train operation actually means CYA.
Why would it be unsafe to use the main track in yard limits without contacting the dispatcher? That's what the rule was designed to do. Under some modern rules the dispatcher can't give the trains a track warrant in yard limits precisely because the dispatcher doesn't know what's on the main and can't control it.
Remember when we are talking yard limits on model railroads we are most often talking about low density, single track, outside of block limits territory. That is the terriroty my comments are pointed towards. Yard limits operate differently in CTC (virtually useless), in current of traffic or in block territory. Those do require contact with the dispatcher (to the point that in CTC, yard limits really add no advantage because so much permission is required from the dispatcher).
dehusmanWhy would it be unsafe to use the main track in yard limits without contacting the dispatcher?
A rule that can set up a conductor to take a fall in the event of a accident.Again fingers will be pointed.
There is no excuse not to contact the DS or even the trainmaster to get his line up through your work area.Its just common sense seeing that lives and property damage is at risk.
Even a inbound train heading toward the receiving yard will expect the track to be his since the last signal he received gives him permission to use that track into the receiving yard..
Can you imagine the inquiry results if a yard crew working the receiving yard would pop out of nowhere using "yard limits" rule and was hit by the inbound? Even a close call would result in the yard conductor standing tall before the man giving account.
Larry: That may be true in the operating environment with which you are familiar. But a heavy traffic mainline with CTC signals is not the only operating environment. As Dave indicated, where signals are involved, yard limits are not normally used. Only major yards have the dedicated receiving tracks you mentioned. Yard limits were mostly found in minor locations, sometimes just a passing siding and one or two back tracks or spurs.
Where yard limits exist, there are relevant rules in place to manage them safely. If two trains collide it means that at least one of the crews was breaking the rules. In dark territory greater responsibility rests with the crew. Furthermore, the dispatcher only knows in general terms where another train MIGHT be. Any information he might provide to a second train will be based on a guess, not exact knowledge. And if his guess is wrong and the train or yard move has relied on it to foul the main.......? In this scenario it is better to just abide by the rules, do the job safely and don't bother the dispatcher.
John
BRAKIE A rule that can set up a conductor to take a fall in the event of a accident.Again fingers will be pointed.
As I said before, most of my comments were pointed at single track outside of block territory, but we'll go with this.
I will assume that it the signals are not CTC, an interlocking or a manual block territory, because they operate differently in yard limits.
If an engine wants to come out on the main track then the rules to enter the main track are the same in or out of yard limits. We will assume the there are no due or over due first class trains. If there is a signal, then the signal governs. If there is no signal then the engine will see if there is a closely approaching train, seeing none the engine can open the main track switch and wait 5 minutes. If no train is seen approaching at the end of 5 minutes then the train can enter the main track and use the yard limits. If the train on the main track is operating on a clear and the next signal drops to approach (since the switch was opened) the train will have to reduce to restricted speed and proceed prepared to stop. If the train enters the block on a clear and is delayed in the block, it will have to proceed at restricted speed. Once he reaches the recieving yard switch and heads in the train is off the main track and no longer in yard limits.
The rules don't permit the train to "pop out of nowhere". The crew just drives out onto the main track with out complying with the rules, then yes they should be fired. But the rules allow the trains to safely use the main track. Once again no contact with the dispatcher required.