What was prototype practice when facing point spurs were to be worked, specifically as regards the caboose. Could shoving moves be made from bihind the caboose or whould be uncoupled from the train and parked somewhere. I am planning on havinga run around track near my facing point Iindustrial spurs and not sure what to do with the caboose. It would be a local working these industries so do I even need a caaboose. I see the local here in my hometown working with the last car simply flag protected.
The need for a caboose depends on the era you are modeling. As for positioning the caboose in a local consist it can be anywhere in the consist really. I remember the Erie Lackawanna in my town. The caboose on our local would actually divide the loads from the empties. Also, since the caboose was manned it could be switched "on the fly", meaning momentum built up and then the caboose cut loose to coast where it was convenient. Railroad crews did what was needed to do their job. Today, my line is NS and the last car has a red flag, OR a second locomotive so the train can run push-pull. This puts a loco on each end so it doesn't matter whether the train encounters a facing poit spur or a trailing point spur.
So am I to understand that shoving moves using an occupied caboose is prohibited?
By the way, I am modeling the BN and the CNW in the late 70's era. Do you know if they had any specific practices on this?
They are not prohibited.
Its pretty much whatever the conductor wants to do. If its easier to set the cab over they might set the cab over, if its easier to hold onto the cab they might hold onto the cab. Different conductors might do it different ways.
How do you want to do it?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
On through trains, in olden times, the caboose provided accommodation for the men at the end of a train. They had several significant operating functions. One was to line switches back to normal for the main line after using a siding in non-CTC territory. Current operating rules mean that a switch may be left reversed and the head-end crew on the next train is advised and will stop and return it to normal before continuing. A second was to provide eyes at the rear of the train watching for hotboxes and dragging equipment. Wayside detectors have taken over that role. A third was to provide flagging protection to the rear if the train was unexpectedly delayed on line in Train Order territory. It also served as an office for the conductor; computerization has greatly reduced the paperwork. It also carried the markers (red lights) to indicate the end of a train, now replaced by the "FRED". It had other roles; this is a sampling of the most important.
On a local industrial switcher the caboose is used in a rather different role. Where a longer reverse move is to be done, it may be advantageous to have it at the rear as a riding platform. Otherwise, it mostly is occupied for short periods between industries, or as a lunch room and shelter from the rain, and will be located in the train wherever most convenient for the crew. That could be at the end, by the locomotive (ahead or behind), or in the middle of the train. Where several industries are in close proximity it may be left out of the way while the whole area is switched.
John
oarb00I was thinking of running the caboose directly behind the engine and the train behind that. My locals would be no longer than 6 to 8 cars. Would this be prototypical? Thanx for the input guys!!!!
oarb00What was prototype practice when facing point spurs were to be worked, specifically as regards the caboose. Could shoving moves be made from bihind the caboose or would be uncoupled from the train and parked somewhere.
Cabooses had steel underframe so, it could and would be used in a runaround move.
A lot of work is needed to spot a cabin or caboose out of the way and I don't know of any conductor that would allow such waste of time so,when we made a runaround we ran around the train coupled on to the caboose and proceeded to do the required work.
The rear brakeman and conductor would be on the ground not in the caboose the brakemen did the work while the conductor observed to ensure the operating and safety rules was followed.
Do not confused today's handicapped railroading of what railroaders did just a few years ago.
Its like comparing boulders to the Alps.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
In the 1960s on the B&O's Landenburg Branch, it was fairly common for the local to leave the yard and run west up the branch with the caboose right behind the engine. They would usually hold onto the cab for all the moves until they were ready to return east when they would run around the train, leaving the caboose on the hind (west) end.
One day around 1970 or so I guess it was, they dragged a derailed car a for a couple miles going west. I don't recall anybody getting in trouble for it, but a notice came out that, in the future the caboose was to be on the hind end .
I grew up across the street from a branchline. They generally ran with the caboose on the rear. Coming up the branchline, they just served the trailing-point spurs. At the end of the line, there was a runaround track, and they'd put the caboose on the other end and hit the now trailing-point spurs coming back down the line.
Note that with the caboose behind the engine, you would as you mention have to have a flag or light on the rear freight car - so the caboose is kinda meaningless??
If there's enough track, you could leave the caboose far enough away from the runaround track that it doesn't become a factor. But as noted, the caboose can be 'in the mix' in switching cars, if it is a steel car, or a wood car with steel underframe.
BRAKIE oarb00 What was prototype practice when facing point spurs were to be worked, specifically as regards the caboose. Could shoving moves be made from bihind the caboose or would be uncoupled from the train and parked somewhere. Cabooses had steel underframe so, it could and would be used in a runaround move. A lot of work is needed to spot a cabin or caboose out of the way and I don't know of any conductor that would allow such waste of time so,when we made a runaround we ran around the train coupled on to the caboose and proceeded to do the required work. The rear brakeman and conductor would be on the ground not in the caboose the brakemen did the work while the conductor observed to ensure the operating and safety rules was followed. Do not confused today's handicapped railroading of what railroaders did just a few years ago. Its like comparing boulders to the Alps.
oarb00 What was prototype practice when facing point spurs were to be worked, specifically as regards the caboose. Could shoving moves be made from bihind the caboose or would be uncoupled from the train and parked somewhere.
Hey Larry, A lot of the conductors I worked with took their shoes off when they got on the caboose and only put them back on when we tied up. (or to go to a bar)
Charlie
Some locals used two cabooses - one right behind the engine for the conductor and (if there was a fireman on the job) the front brakeman, and one on the hind end for the flagman. This was done at least into the mid-1960s on some locals the B&O. I have seen videos of two cabs on Nickle Plate locals, and the Spring 2014 issue of Classic Trains Magazine has a photo of a C&O local with the two cabooses. I have heard PRR also used two cabin cars on some locals.
Incidently, in the Landenburg Br. example I mentioned in a previous post, the crew was not required to protect against other trains.
charlie9Hey Larry, A lot of the conductors I worked with took their shoes off when they got on the caboose and only put them back on when we tied up. (or to go to a bar) Charlie
Must be a NYC thing..The PRR and the Chessie(c&o) conductors I worked with wanted to make sure the rules was followed or if they wanted a early quit they would help get the work done.
DSO17Some locals used two cabooses - one right behind the engine for the conductor and (if there was a fireman on the job) the front brakeman, and one on the hind end for the flagman.
I can explain that a tad farther.
The caboose was not needed as a rider car simply because most engines had a third fold down seat in the cab for the head brakeman.
Some times we would leave half the train sit including the trailing cabin and take the lead cabin and the needed cars up another industrial lead to switch industries.We would place the cabin on the end of the train before we made our reverse move back to the other half of our train Some times we would leave it in the middle of the train other times we would place it behind the other cabin.There was no set pattern since the cabin was no longer needed.
When I went to work on the PRR in '66 the job of "flagman" was eliminated and the job of fireman was on the endangered species list.
A lot of PRR firemen I knew was qualified engineers but,was holding the fireman's seat because of their seniority.
BRAKIEThe caboose was not needed as a rider car simply because most engines had a third fold down seat in the cab for the head brakeman.
On the locals I was referring to the front caboose was a "rider car" and usually stayed coupled to the engine for all the moves. Not all engines had a third seat (I think PRR may have been a leader in better loco seating) and even so, with a fireman there were still four men on the head end. Most important, at least as I saw it, was for the conductor to have a good, solid, well-lighted place to properly fill out his paperwork, most of all the timecard ($$$$)
BRAKIEWhen I went to work on the PRR in '66 the job of "flagman" was eliminated and the job of fireman was on the endangered species list. A lot of PRR firemen I knew was qualified engineers but,was holding the fireman's seat because of their seniority.
Here in the east, the job of the "flagman" continued on from PRR to Penn Central and into Conrail. The official title may have changed to rear brakeman, but, whatever the name, their first responsibility was flagging. New Jersey had a flagging law through the 1970s. Back in the late 1950s and early 1960s I guess virtually all the firemen I knew on the B&O were promoted engineers.
DSO17Here in the east, the job of the "flagman" continued on from PRR to Penn Central and into Conrail. The official title may have changed to rear brakeman, but, whatever the name, their first responsibility was flagging. New Jersey had a flagging law through the 1970s. Back in the late 1950s and early 1960s I guess virtually all the firemen I knew on the B&O were promoted engineers.
Great information..
I was first trained as a yard brakeman then after six months of yard service I requested a transfer to the road pool so,i could work urban locals-it was a local union agreement thing..I was trained as a rear brakeman and taught the proper way to use a fuse as a warning for following trains-simply put I was told to drop the fusee from the rear platform and make sure it landed between the rails(the gauge).If we made a emergency stop then I walked around 1,000 feet from the cabin and dropped a fusee and return to the train and started the hike along the train looking for the cause.The head man started from the engine.The conductor would replace the fuse when needed while we brakemen took care of the problem.
I didn't think I would get so much response when I started this thread! Thank you all much for all the input, very interesting.
,
From what I remember from my father the C&O in Walbridge they had some wood cabooses in the 50s and 60s still on their trains. They would take loooong coal trains from Walbridge, over the Toledo Terminal to Presqui Isle coal docks on the Maumee bay. If they pushed the train the caboose would be placed behind the pushing engine, because pushing against a wood framed caboose could be a problem. If the head end stopped and the rear engines continued to push it would smash the caboose, so the rule was no pushing any caboose, that may be in helper service. and if only doing some light switching the rules may be different. I would think that by the era you are modeling there would not be any wood framed cabeese around so the point would be moot.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR
Here's another cabin story from my days on the PRR.
Some days we would place the engine in the middle of the train with cabins on both ends this was done so we could switch two different urban industrial branches niether had a runaround track so,we had to reverse move up one and reverse move out the other..We would leave half the train on a stub end storage track while we proceeded up the facing point lead.We would leave this part of the train on the lead by the main line switch-we tied these cars down with 2 or more hand brakes depending on the number of cars.We would pick up this half of the train on our return trip.
This save PRR from having to use 2 locals with 5 men crews.
It's before the time you model, but I was told by a steam era railroader that there were some conductors that wouldn't let you switch with the caboose in the consist. They didn't want "the fire in the stove knocked over" and mainly didn't wan't to be jostled around. Some conductors could be touchy as well as engineers.
But often the rear end of the train was stationary with the front end being switched anyway. But if you look closer in some photos, you will also see the caboose from the local parked in a "pocket" somewhere to get it out of the way or for the reason stated above.
But here's a story in my Wabash book from way back when that is funny in retrospect. It seems one senior conductor was afraid of geting flat wheels on his caboose. So a young flagmen talked him into cutting out the air on the caboose. Well, unfortunately, as they were crossing a diamond, the caboose came uncoupled and got away from the train. The train was finally stopped by a "red board" at a station about seventeen miles to the west! This was long before the use of radio and the line was sparsley populated with stations and operators in that particular location with the only way to communicate by telegraph and signals at the stations.
Victor A. Baird
www.erstwhilepublications.com
wabash2800but I was told by a steam era railroader that there were some conductors that wouldn't let you switch with the caboose in the consist. They didn't want "the fire in the stove knocked over" and mainly didn't wan't to be jostled around. Some conductors could be touchy as well as engineers.
Allow me to share this..
I heard the same story on the Pennsy but, with a company twist...
Depending on who you ask some would say that story was a pure BS because we never had coal for the cabin's stove or again depending on who you ask..What stove?
Well, Larry, I can assure you Wabash cabooses had a coal burning pot belly stove, at least in the steam era and a little later.
And if anyone doubts the incident about the lost caboose; it happend on Wabash Fourth District btw Dillon and Westville, Indiana. Switch crews would often cut out the air on cars to faciliate switching, which would sometimes get them in trouble.
Victor,Those was company slam answers more then anything..
In 66/67 there was a lot of company/union strife due to the planed PC merger and the planing of Buckeye yard in Columbus,Oh, and the pending lost of jobs due to yard closures-like NYC McKinley Ave yard and PRR's Cleveland Ave yard complex which consisted of several smaller yards..
Akron & Barberton Belt RR had two old PRR N6b wooden cabins in the 1950's. Around the early to mid 1950's, number 2 was being used when they were doing some switching near Firestone Tire & Rubber in Akron. A strong wind came through the open door and blew burning coal out of the open door of the coal stove. Number 2 quickly burned right down to the frame. Fortunately, the crew was able to uncouple the caboose from the revenue cars, preventing any further damage. Caboose 2 was rebuilt by A&BB with a new steel body and returned to service for several more years.
Yup. They burned coal in those stoves.
Tom
Tom,By '66 some of the few remaining N6Bs on the PRR had holes in the sides or corners so cold wind blew in quite freely..Of course by '66 the N6Bs was downgraded to transfer,urban local or work train duty and was on living on borrowed time in Columbus.
That's true. They were pretty common in 1950; rare in 1960; and probably all retired by 1970.
BRAKIEDepending on who you ask some would say that story was a pure BS because we never had coal for the cabin's stove
Since Victor specified steam era, and the Pennsy had thousands of cabins (cabooses) with coal stoves during the steam era, your post about what was true decades later is moot. What is true in one place and time does not apply to the full history of railroading in every location.
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cuyama BRAKIE Depending on who you ask some would say that story was a pure BS because we never had coal for the cabin's stove Since Victor specified steam era, and the Pennsy had thousands of cabins (cabooses) with coal stoves during the steam era, your post about what was true decades later is moot. What is true in one place and time does not apply to the full history of railroading in every location.
BRAKIE Depending on who you ask some would say that story was a pure BS because we never had coal for the cabin's stove
LOL! You just don't get it.