Before anyone says, "Read Track Planning for Realistic Operation", by John Armstrong, let me say, I am talking about a different subject, although track planning would be part of it.
I'm talking about researching how railroads do business in a business world, how they interact with other train companies, how they set up the trains, how and why they buy the newest and sell used locomotives and rolling stock, how they itemize loads, empties, fuel cost considerations, track maintenance, locomotive maintenance, labeling and tracking loads on cars. Why yards are built here and not there. How and why real estate is purchased for RR operation, and MANY OTHER factors.
All these aspects and more are interesting, and I'm sure some people here understand a lot of these things, especially those who actually work in the RR industry.
For those of us modelers who want a realistic model RR operation, for whatever reason, which is probably another version of "rivet counter mentality" these things are important to consider.
Maybe I am a fanatic but are there books or some media that explain all this stuff that anyone knows of?
For those who don't really care about this stuff, and just like to watch the trains roll or are into other aspects of the hobby, then ignore this thread.
read "Freight Terminals and Trains" by John Droege for starters. It is from an earlier era but many of the same standards apply today.
Charlie
BBF,
Railroad are no different than any other business. Government regulations(FRA/STB) govern things like access/rates/safety issues.
North American railroads use an 'Interchange' system so that a load does not have to be unloaded from Railroad A's freight car and reloaded into Railroad B's freight car to continue it's journey across the country. There are agreed upon operations & billing methods to handle this.
The actual purchase and sale of equipment is based on business needs, like with any company. You might want to go to tha ARR web site to start with:
https://www.aar.org/Pages/HomePage.aspx
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Some books:
Railroad - What It Is, What It Does, by John Armstrong A text book used in College classes and is the basis for his book tracx Planning for Realistic Operation. My copy published c 1978 by Simmons-Boardman Publishing. There are latter editions.
All About Signals by John Armstrong c1957 by Kalambach Publishing. I believe there are later editions
Freight Terminals and Trains by John Droege Reprint of 2nd edition c1925 published in 1998 by A. C. Kalmbach Memorial Library, National Model Railroad Association
Passenger Terminals and Trains by John Droege c1916 Republished 1969 by Kalmbach Publishing. I found pdf download on Google Books.
American Railway Shop Systems by Walter G. Berg c1901 pdf download on Google Books
Railway Track and Maintenance by E. E. Russell Tratman Reprint of 1926 edition published in 2003 by A. C. Kalmbach Memorial Library, National Model Railroad Association
Also check Railroad Company websites. The Union Pacific for instance has lots of info.
Employee handbooks and rule books can sometimes be found on ebay, used book stores (both brick & morter and internet) or Train Shows
Also check out the Association of American Railroads and Federal Railway Administration sites.
A company- Softrail -has published 3 books: Elements of Train Dispatching (two volumes), and Managing Railroad Transportation. I don't know anything about them but the titles sound like they may be useful to you. The company produces railroad simulation software.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Get a subscription to Railway Age or Progressive Railroading. If you live in a major city with a railroad headquarters the public library might have Railway Age in its archives.
One of the best ways to understand how railroads make their larger decisions it to read books on the histories of railroads. Not the picture books like Morning Sun, but the long text. Maury Klein had a 3 or 4 volume set on the history of the UP.
Most of the stuff you are talking about take place over many years. The UP just opened a new yard at Santa Theresa, it has taken probably a decade from concept through permitting to construction to opening and it could take another decade to fully build all the tracks.
Another source would be an Official Railway Equipment Register which gives information on interchange rules and interchanges.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I can recommend a relatively recent book that covers a substantial segment of the OP's interests in more of the business side of RRing, while still providing a lot of thoughful information on how this translates into changes in the physical plant. Try "North American Railyards" by Michael Rhodes (St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing, 2003).
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Besides general curiosity about how railroads operate in so many areas of the RR business, procedure and protocol, an attempt here is to translate this to model railroading, which justifies many facets of the hobby, even though model railroading is not real railroading. Otherwise, bascially you have a bunch of toy trains running around trying to haphazardly look something like real train operation and please don't anyone say that is exactly what we are doing.
No, we generally model a particular era or general time. For that time all the stuff you are interested in is constant. All the stuff you are interested in is stuff that will be applicable to operations 6 months to several years from now (when ever you have determined now is).
You can understand the history of how your railroad got to where it is and if you are modeling more than 10 years ago you can know where its going, but knowing where a railroad in 2014 will be in 2020 is a crapshoot.
dehusman No, we generally model a particular era or general time. For that time all the stuff you are interested in is constant. All the stuff you are interested in is stuff that will be applicable to operations 6 months to several years from now (when ever you have determined now is). You can understand the history of how your railroad got to where it is and if you are modeling more than 10 years ago you can know where its going, but knowing where a railroad in 2014 will be in 2020 is a crapshoot.
That has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Big Boy ForeverI'm talking about researching how railroads do business in a business world, how they interact with other train companies, how they set up the trains, how and why they buy the newest and sell used locomotives and rolling stock, how they itemize loads, empties, fuel cost considerations, track maintenance, locomotive maintenance, labeling and tracking loads on cars. Why yards are built here and not there. How and why real estate is purchased for RR operation, and MANY OTHER factors. Maybe I am a fanatic but are there books or some media that explain all this stuff that anyone knows of?
As DSchmitt already suggested, Railroad - What It Is, What It Does, also by John Armstrong will explain the design and operation of a railroad and how railroads interact with one another.
Others can better explain why numerous existing railroad facilities built in the steam era are no longer needed, why trackage for unused roadbeds is removed for tax reasons, and why rolling stock is replaced/sold for business reasons.
Big Boy ForeverBesides general curiosity about how railroads operate in so many areas of the RR business, procedure and protocol, an attempt here is to translate this to model railroading, which justifies many facets of the hobby, even though model railroading is not real railroading. Otherwise, bascially you have a bunch of toy trains running around trying to haphazardly look something like real train operation and please don't anyone say that is exactly what we are doing.
As many model railroaders who focus on more realistic operation often say, the purpose of railroads is to move passengers and freight, and for more realistic operation, model railroads should be planned to do the same. Frank Ellison's, Art of Model Railroading discusses this with a focus on entertainment value.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
So your point is ....????
Here's a layout that models the business aspect as well as the physical plant:
http://www.ltths.org/deep-fried-faq/
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Big Boy Forever Besides general curiosity about how railroads operate in so many areas of the RR business, procedure and protocol, an attempt here is to translate this to model railroading, which justifies many facets of the hobby, even though model railroading is not real railroading. Otherwise, bascially you have a bunch of toy trains running around trying to haphazardly look something like real train operation and please don't anyone say that is exactly what we are doing. So your point is ....????
Big Boy Forever Besides general curiosity about how railroads operate in so many areas of the RR business, procedure and protocol, an attempt here is to translate this to model railroading, which justifies many facets of the hobby, even though model railroading is not real railroading. Otherwise, bascially you have a bunch of toy trains running around trying to haphazardly look something like real train operation and please don't anyone say that is exactly what we are doing.
The ultimate in realistic operation of a model railroad, including using thinking in how real railroads operate including business considerations. Of course, equipment and track arrangements are part of the equation.
Maybe some people don't care much about this and would rather focus on other things, this but it is what interests me.
Big Boy ForeverThe ultimate in realistic operation of a model railroad, including using thinking in how real railroads operate including business considerations. Of course, equipment and track arrangements are part of the equation.
As far as track arrangements you might do well to speak to a ARF.As far as operation talk to those that work the job.
For your business considerations Google is your friend as is back issues of Trains Magazine that covered the business side in various columns..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Let me recommend a different book. "12,000 Days on the North Western Line. The life and times of a railroad civil engineer 1947-1980" by Eugene Lewis, published in 2005 by the Chicago & North Western Historical Society. This is a 962 page book and there has never been anything else like it that I have seen for getting deep into the details of how and why railroad corporate decisions are made as regards track and traffic. At times it is nearly a day by day account.
Dave Nelson
Big Boy Forever The ultimate in realistic operation of a model railroad, including using thinking in how real railroads operate including business considerations. Of course, equipment and track arrangements are part of the equation.
There are a whole bunch of things that enter into how a railroad operates. And there are any number of options a railroad could use to go in any number of directions.The three over riding things: what generates profits, what reduces costs andwhat serves customers. After that its where the railroad wants to emphasize its operations. That could be in any number of options. Highly dependent on the era, the regulatory environment, the economy and what the railroad decides is its future is.
Big Boy Forever Big Boy Forever Besides general curiosity about how railroads operate in so many areas of the RR business, procedure and protocol, an attempt here is to translate this to model railroading, which justifies many facets of the hobby, even though model railroading is not real railroading. Otherwise, bascially you have a bunch of toy trains running around trying to haphazardly look something like real train operation and please don't anyone say that is exactly what we are doing. So your point is ....???? The ultimate in realistic operation of a model railroad, including using thinking in how real railroads operate including business considerations. Of course, equipment and track arrangements are part of the equation. Maybe some people don't care much about this and would rather focus on other things, this but it is what interests me.
Honestly I think it is cool to learn about the real thing, but I do not believe in following everything to the letter. You don't have to do every follow every little rule. Heck, I don't believe in following history very closely. Ex: a locomotive was scrapped before your era, so just rewrite history and say that a group of rail fan bought it, and run it now and then. Convert some gondolas, flatcars, maybe box cars, and passenger cars. Plus what group of rail fans that own a train don't have a caboose. You can have the trains of the old and new running. Another advantage if modeling the modern era.
KyleYou don't have to do every follow every little rule.
And don't forget you need to be tested on those operating and safety rules once a year,read the daily bulletin and sign for your copy after you sign in,hurry up across your division then stop and wait and wait some more until a inbound yard track clears.Be called for 2 AM yet your train doesn't depart till 5 or 6 AM for various reasons,then you have the broken knuckles,break in twos,break downs,outlawing in the boon docks and waiting 1-3 hours for a crew van etc. All the joys of real railroading.
Now the nut jobs in the office and FRA makes your job worst by their constant new operating or safety rules.Make a mistake? You will give accountability for your carelessness and depending on the seriousness of the infraction you can be given a written reprimand,street time or lost of job..
That's just the operating side..
Big Boy Forever Big Boy Forever Besides general curiosity about how railroads operate in so many areas of the RR business, procedure and protocol, an attempt here is to translate this to model railroading, which justifies many facets of the hobby, even though model railroading is not real railroading. Otherwise, bascially you have a bunch of toy trains running around trying to haphazardly look something like real train operation and please don't anyone say that is exactly what we are doing. So your point is ....???? The ultimate in realistic operation of a model railroad, including using thinking in how real railroads operate including business considerations. Of course, equipment and track arrangements are part of the equation. Maybe some people don't care much about this and would rather focus on other things, this but it is what interests me. Gidday Big Boy Forever, I did gather that was your point from your opening post, but I would respectfully suggest that your occasional use of all bold case in some of your posts, which I presume is inadvertent, gives me the impression that you’re angry and if not shouting, “talking” in a very loud voice, which doesn’t excuse my sarcasm for which I apologise. However I will take issue with your casual dismissal of dehusman. Setting your model railroad in a particular time, subjects it to the business practices and regulations of that period. The managements of different competing railroads, no doubt, tackled the changes at the time, financial or new rules from the regulatory body; for example (this is where my knowledge gets really shaky) the Interstate Commerce Commission prior to 1980; according to their own, and their railroads, individual strengths, and if required, ability to access finance. A study of history should tell us who got it right, though with the benefit of, that two edged sword, hindsight, history can also tell us who even with the best of intentions, and having carried out due diligence, got it wrong because of circumstances beyond their control. For instance, how many people foresaw The Global Financial Crisis? I don’t consider your pursuit of this aspect of the hobby as being fanatical; I applaud your enthusiasm, just don’t expect me to show the same enthusiasm, my model railroading is an escape from running a business. There appears to be some fairly comprehensive (heavy) reading in the material that the guys have offered. Have Fun, Cheers, the Bear.
Your're kidding right? (see above underlined in bold)
Kind of hypocritical since your bottom quote looks something like this:
On the other hand, I guess I forgot my internet etiquette, which I did not realize was a big deal here.
As far as the other stuff, I'm looking for general RR business operating information, not historical windows of RR operation based on the era, that's why I'm asking.
thanks for your info.
BBF
Big Boy Forever As far as the other stuff, I'm looking for general RR business operating information, not historical windows of RR operation based on the era, that's why I'm asking.
Pretty much anything you get will be history since no railroad is going to tell you what they are doing now. I still suggest you read about the history of the railroad companies, they will give background on the business decisions.
Your question is very broad. Is there something specific that you are interested in?
dehusman Big Boy Forever As far as the other stuff, I'm looking for general RR business operating information, not historical windows of RR operation based on the era, that's why I'm asking. Pretty much anything you get will be history since no railroad is going to tell you what they are doing now. I still suggest you read about the history of the railroad companies, they will give background on the business decisions. Your question is very broad. Is there something specific that you are interested in?
Not right now.
I'm more interested in the broad general issues currently
PTC
Tier 4 Emissions
CBR
Increase in car loadings
Congestion through Chicago post last winter
Changes in engineering worker protection laws.