Railroad interchanges

[bsteel4065]

NYC, PRR, C&O, B&O. Now this is probably a very stupid question if you live in the States and have past memories and knowledge of eastern railroads, BUT...
I live in the UK so forgive me. Is there any place where those 4 railroads crossed each others paths or interchanged with each other? Sorry if it's a stupid question!
Thanks.

[ndbprr]

No question is stupid. If you are asking was there one location where they all interchanged - no. PRR definitely with all the other three. NYC probably, B&O absolutely, C&O probably. The reason for my answer is that most people would immediately think east coast but all four railroads intersected in the Midwest in Ohio, Indiana and Michigan as well as several crossings in Maryland, and Pennsylvania for PRR, B&O and C&O. An Official Railway Equipment Register (ORER) which can be had on EBay occasionally for the era you model will give you all the answers. It lists every car in interchange service with dimensions and descriptions, interchange locatuions with all other railroadsm and corporate information as well as ARR car designations and much more information. It is similar to a large phone book in the USA and sells quarterly to the railroads for $40.00 per copy. Once the new ones come out they are worthless and get thrown away by the railroads. I used to have a source for them from the IC railroad but he retired. I would sell recent ones for $10.00 per copy. I can't tell you who publishes them as I forget but the NMRA or NRHS offered one from the 50'some time ago so they are around and would be the definitive source.

[dehusman]

According to the 1943 ORER, Columbus OH and Toledo, OH had all four railroads.

Dave H.

[jrbarney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

. . . I can't tell you who publishes them as I forget but the NMRA or NRHS offered one from the 50'some time ago so they are around and would be the definitive source.

Bsteel4065,
The NMRA's Kalmbach Memorial Library still offers the 1943 and 1953 ORER in softbound and the 1943 ORER in hardbound at this link:
http://www.rrhistorical.com/cgi/NMRA_Store/nmra-store.cgi?ORDER_ID=660843075&thispage=page5.html&ACTION=NEXT+PAGE
To ensure that you get the correct price, NMRA members should enter the Members Only Company Store, whereas non-members should enter the Non-Members Store.
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr
[ An Official Railway Equipment Register (ORER) which can be had on EBay occasionally for the era you model will give you all the answers. It lists every car in interchange service with dimensions and descriptions, interchange locatuions with all other railroadsm and corporate information as well as ARR car designations and much more information. It is similar to a large phone book in the USA and sells quarterly to the railroads for $40.00 per copy. Once the new ones come out they are worthless and get thrown away by the railroads. I used to have a source for them from the IC railroad but he retired. I would sell recent ones for $10.00 per copy. I can't tell you who publishes them as I forget but the NMRA or NRHS offered one from the 50'some time ago so they are around and would be the definitive source.

Westerfied has some ORER's on CD Rom

http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/

[bsteel4065]

Thank you guys!
It looks like I'm modelling Ohio! Yes, I noticed that westerfield had ORER's on CD ROM before.
Thank you all very much.

[joseph2]

I wonder if the Toledo Terminal RR handled the interchange between those four railroads in Toledo? Joe G.

[dehusman]

Holy Toledo, what a question!

Dave H.

[bsteel4065]

Funny you should say that joseph2, I'm planning my new layout and the hub is an interchange company that 'processes' freight for major railroads. That's why I wanted to know about C&O, B&O, PRR and NYC. The interchange company receives freight trains into the yard, classifies them, sorts them, makes up new trains for the four railroads to take on from there. Then of course, there are locals. Why those four? Why not? I like them!
Barry

[jrbarney]

Barry,
Here's a citation from the Index of Magazines:

Toledo Terminal - Prototype Private Pike, HO Monthly/Model Trains, March 1953, page 46 ( "BRITT, FRANK", LAYOUT, HOMT )

If you want a photocopy of the article, I suggest you try the NMRA's Kalmbach Memorial Library:
http://www.nmra.org/library/
Their rates are reasonable even for non-members.
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[ndbprr]

You might want to research one or two other locations also. Western Michigan had all four and has rolling hills several hundred feet high and wooded and some mid sized cities. The B&O and Ann Arbor also had the Lake Michigan car ferries that ran here. Ohio in the Toledo area is flat but has a couple of navigable rivers and major ship traffic including ore boats and coal loading. One other area that might apply is upstate New York. The PRR had a coal dock at Sodus Point. The area around Buffalo might have had all four also and is more mountainous although not huge or rugged. It also would have had the Erie and Lackawanna before the merger. If you are planning a freelance connecting or shortline railroad you could justify it just about anywhere east of Chicago, north of Washington D.C. and west of New England. The key would be what traffic and justification there would be for the railroad to interchange with each of them. Read the story of the Susquehanna railroad that was an also ran until Amtrak took over the corridor and then its route became valuable to get freight and intermodal to New York City justifying major traffic and engines.

[bsteel4065]

Hi ndbprr and jrbarney
Thanks guys. I'll be scouring the internet for information maps and photos. You've given me a great start. It's spooky that you mentioned rivers and harbours. That is part of the plan. The local delivers to the docks, which gives me all that switching through a busy port. And, of course, water, cranes, commerce, etc. It also gives me bridges over leading rivers. By the way, I recently ripped out my old road of 10 years, so this is the 'really serious' one with all the lessons learnt. It's 14x11 in my attic / loft.
Good on you sirs!

[joseph2]

Those four railroads entered Chicago from the East and South-East.Two Chicago belt lines are the Indiana Harbor Belt and the Elgin,Joliet and Eastern.The area has ports on Lake Michigan. Joe G.

[bsteel4065]

Dear M.W.Hemphill
What a fantastically interesting post. Thank you, sir. As I said in my first post, I live in the UK, so the intricate details of freight movement from railroad to railroad and 'natural' knowledge of being 'on the ground' are not readily available to me. (Except through books, the internet and forums such as this of course.) The self protection of own interests of each railroad is now clear, especially the need to discourage interfaces with a competiting railroad service. As you know, I'm at the planning stage of my new railroad and my initial image is to have a freelance company that marshals freight for a particular purpose, moves it on and returns empties. This is to allow the appearance of the named four to drop off and pick up. Has there ever been a dock or trunk line owned by an independent company that moved other railroads cars to their facility and then returned them empty for pick up? Maybe I'll have to pick on one railroad but have others passing by in the neighbourhood on their own tracks!
Thanks again.
Barry

[ndbprr]

Many examples. Here in Chicago there was a company called rail to water transfer now owned by Koch Industries that would off load coal from hoppers to barges for distribution to power plants on lake Michigan. I can't imagine why this would cheaper and easier than direct rail haulage but it is. Great Model Railroad Planning had an article on a Brooklyn railroad a couple of years ago that barged in traffic from NEw Jersey for a very small industrial area of about one mile long. Turns were so tight that one track actually went under the corner of a building that had a support column outside the track to hold up the upper stories. Most major heavy industries like steel mills get many cars from off line and have mutiple engines. Steel mills get coal, refractory empty steel cars, gondolas of scrap, alloy agents, machinery and suppliues by rail. They send back empty hoppers, hoppers with coke to other mills, hot metal sometimes, empty box cars, filled coil cars, coke plant byproducts in tank cars. In the case of the old Inland Steel company in East Chicago Indiana (now Ispat Steel) rail traffic was funneled to the Indiana Harbor Belt which delivered cars to a yard outside the steel mill fence. Inland switchers would then bring them inside to the various locations. This was a big operation with switchers bringing in 60-70 hoppers of coal at a time. Traffic trying to get in and out would be tied up for half an hour. What a shame to just sit there with Conrail, IHB, EJ&E and CSX tracks to Chicago alongside the car with high density traffic. No one could figure out why it never upset me.

[steveblackledge]

Hi Barry, i'm a (UK) Burlington Northern modeller (late 80's) not my age, the era, i think i will be getting an ORER as i have been doing a bit of wondering about interchanges myself. my railroads called the Yarrow Valley Sub Division, i live near the Yarrow Valley in Lancashire, hence the name.
Steve,,,,,,,WGH Ambassador

[bsteel4065]

Hi Steve
I'm on the south coast. Yes, I'm getting serious about my next layout. I learnt a lot from my first (now defunct) layout and I want to to do it right this time. I'm planning the Hilary Interchange (the logo is Hi!) which is something I've had in my head for ages now. It is a freight yard based in 1953 in the East that takes in trains and makes up trains to go. Hilary Interchage moves on freight to the docks (I'm leaning towards coal and either Lake Erie or Atlantic coast.) Yes, I'm getting an ORER for the time. I'm also scanning the internet for photos of the period. I'll list them out for you and post them later if you're interested.
Cheers (now that's a british sign off!)
Barry

[bsteel4065]

Hi ndbprr
I've come across the Brooklyn road with the track coming thru the corner of the building. I've been pulling together a mountain of pictures and references and I came across it in a collection of a photo tour tracing old remaining tracks thru NY. Incredible.
Hi M.W.Hemphill
So, is a railroad that 'demonstrate(s) no public need or convenience' by definition one that is tied to and acts for other railroad(s) as a third party and doesn't deal directly with customers so therefore offers no direct chargeable service to them?
Barry

[bsteel4065]

Hi Steve
Here you go... I'm looking for images of the US as well not just railroad stuff. All of these have archive photo libraries that are excellent for signs, advertising, general stuff.
www.nyc.gov
http//memory.loc.gov
www.state.de.us
www.oldnyc.com
www.oac.cdlib.org
www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo
Hope they are of use..... Barry

[cefinkjr]

MWH: You betray your Chicago origins, Sir, by your mention of EJ&E as US Steel's "greatest example" of a switching carrier. As a Pittsburgh native and for Barry's benefit, I've got to mention the Union RR -- largest Class I entirely within the limits of a single county (Allegheny). [:)]

Barry: URR had several things to recommend it as a subject for modeling. It interchanged with PRR and B&O, NYC subsidiary P&LE, and B&LE (another US Steel road). In spite of its being entirely within Allegheny County -- a heavily industrialized and urban county -- there were many locations where its track was in very rural, almost pastoral, settings. And the old trick of ending your model railroad by ducking into a tunnel would be perfectly prototypical if you modeled the URR. URR reached the B&LE's yard at Universal, PA via a short tunnel. (I once lived nearly on top of that tunnel.)

[bsteel4065]

Hi ndbprr
Just looking into Union RR. Looking very close to what I'm looking for. It even has Duquesne Wharf and Coal Dock for coal transfer to barges. And Allegheny scenery.
Thanks! I'm now investigating further.
Cheers
Barry