Hi everyone!
I am working on a Canadian Pacific passenger train using Con-Cor cars. My question is about which end of the coach car was the 'front'. Do the ends with the doors go towards the locomotive or away from it?
I am guessing that the coach doors were at the back of the car, but I am basing that on the floor plan and the direction that the seats face for an IHC interior which was not designed to fit the Con-Cor car.
Thanks
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi,Dave,
I'm going to take a quick,what if? on this,,,are both sides of the car doors, at the rear,because if they are,I've never seen them that way..Only one entrance,exit,,,is what I am saying..
Cheers,
Frank
This comes up lots of times. The answer is really neither end is "front" Unless the railroad turns the entire consist on a balloon loop or wye at each end of each run, the front on the eastbound trip will be the rear on the westbound trip.
Plus in a real rail car the seats have the ability to be changed to face the direction the train is moving.
I have also seen the vestibules paired (2 coaches with the vestibules next to each other) so that one trainman can help people on or off two cars and it makes it easier to spot on a short platform.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
The Great Northern "Empire Builder" had coaches with vestibules at the front (1215-1220, 1227-1231) OR rear (1221-1226). I don't know to what extent other railroads made this specification.
I'd recommend finding photos of the train of interest and studying those.
Ed
The majority of passenger cars had vestibules on both ends.
Some streamline coaches has folding steps..The steps would open only if the dutch doors was being open.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Cars have an A end or a B end. It would be interesting how the railroad defined what the "front" of a coach was. I can't think of how you would identify which end was the "front" of a coach just sitting there by itself.
dehusman Cars have an A end or a B end. It would be interesting how the railroad defined what the "front" of a coach was. I can't think of how you would identify which end was the "front" of a coach just sitting there by itself.
I was called for PRR's Columbus Union Station job twice and the only thing I had to remember was the mail storage and express cars numbers we was to pull and add and the numbers the two Pullmans we were to pull and placed on the clean out track.
I don't know if this tibit helps or not.
Dave H.
Thanks for your answer! It means that although I could run the car whichever way I want, I will have to keep the doors at the rear of this particular coach because the IHC interior kit that I plan on using only has a vestible at one end, which is 'behind' the seat backs.
Thanks to everyone else for your input. I am learning as I go, and you are all helping a lot in that respect.
Frank:
Sorry, I missed your question the first time through the posts. Both doors are on the same end of the car.
Dave,
That's okay,,,,,Really doesn't make any difference now,,,,glad you got a solution..
As noted earlier, coach cars generally had seats that could be turned 180 degrees, or had backs that would move to the other side ("walkover" seats) so it usually wasn't that critical which end was which (although the cars did still have a designated front and back).
Sometimes railroads that operated corridor Pullman cars, where there was a corridor on one side of the car, and compartments or drawing rooms on the other side, would want to keep the Pullman cars arranged so the side the passengers sat on were all facing the same direction - like if the railroad ran along a river for example, where the best view was only from one side of the train.
BRAKIE The majority of passenger cars had vestibules on both ends.
But where they don't, cars in the train will normally be oriented so that the vestibule ends all face the same way so the exits are evenly spaced. (I wouldn't be surprised though if there's a railroad that would pair them instead to handle deboarding in fewer places. - edit: I see dehusman mentioned such an example above) Forward or backward or paired or random would depend on the railroad's preference.
A particular railroad will probably have a pretty consistent practice on how things are oriented, but the way CP does it for example, might not be the same as UP. You really need to look at photos or, if you can find them, passenger train marshalling guides for the train(s) or railroad you're interested in. Following the practice of a different railroad could get you the completely wrong result if you're trying to model a particular train.
I believe the original post mentioned Canadian Pacific. I'm not sure what train or era, but if you're modeling the "Canadian", there was a very specific direction for every car in the train. I don't have that information at my fingertips at the moment but I believe I can get that.
Also note that for the post-1968 CP Rail scheme, the "multimark" logo was always painted at the rear of any equipment that had an assigned direction. (Freight cars don't have a direction, and just about every variation imaginable existed, but locomotives and passenger cars were consistent.)
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acr Also note that for the post-1968 CP Rail scheme, the "multimark" logo was always painted at the rear of any equipment that had an assigned direction. (Freight cars don't have a direction, and just about every variation imaginable existed, but locomotives and passenger cars were consistent.)
So if i am looking at any passenger car, how do i tell which is the "front" and which is the "rear" of the car?
Every car, freight or passenger, has an A end and a B end, a left and a right side. Locomotive have a "front". I would think that the "front" of a passenger car would be rather arbitrary, based on the individual assignment and is not attached to the car itself.
Hi Dave
I don't know if this pic will help or not. I tried increasing the size but it gets pretty fuzzy. This is in Vancouver and I understand that they turned all the trains for the return trip. They would pull the train from the CP station through the Dunsmuir tunnel to a balloon track around the round house, and back through the tunnel to the station.
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Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
dehusman cv_acr Also note that for the post-1968 CP Rail scheme, the "multimark" logo was always painted at the rear of any equipment that had an assigned direction. (Freight cars don't have a direction, and just about every variation imaginable existed, but locomotives and passenger cars were consistent.) So if i am looking at any passenger car, how do i tell which is the "front" and which is the "rear" of the car? Every car, freight or passenger, has an A end and a B end, a left and a right side. Locomotive have a "front". I would think that the "front" of a passenger car would be rather arbitrary, based on the individual assignment and is not attached to the car itself.
CP ran the cars on their flagship train the "Canadian" in a specific orientation; and the multimark logo on all of the equipment assigned to the "Canadian" would be at the end that trails towards the rear.
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=8227
Sure the "front" of a passenger car is pretty arbitrary, but in this case there is a specific direction.
As others have pointed out, the specific practice varied by railway, and of course since the seats in the coaches can be turned, the cars can run in either direction.
The standard practice for CP Budds, as used on the Canadian, was thus (vestibule = end with side doors). As noted by the previous poster, this orientation put the Multi-Mark logo at the rear of every car:
-Coaches: vestibule at the rear
-Skyline dome cars: vestibule at the front
-Diners: No vestibule, but the kitchen end was normally forward
-Sleepers: Vestibule at the rear
-Park Dome-Observation: Obviously vestibule forward, since the rear is curved bullet-lounge.
This orientation would actually be very consistent, because the seats in the domes of both the Skyline and Park cars could not be turned. As a result, the trains were typically turned on a ballon track or wye at both ends of the trip. This is still the practice today with VIA's equipment - The Canadian is turned at both ends, so the orientation remains the same. Interestingly, this is VIA's standard practice on all of their trains when possible - since the locomotives need to be turned anyway, it's often just as easy to turn the full train (if the wye is too short, the train can be turned in sections). This is true of the Canadian, the Ocean, the Chaleur and the majority of VIA's Corridor trains.
Interestingly enough, at some point along the way VIA changed the orientation of the ex-CP Budd cars. They now run with the vestibule forward on coaches, and the Skyline domes have been turned so the vestibule is at the rear. The diners, sleepers and Parks though have the same orientation as in their CP days.
-Tim
BRAKIE The majority of passenger cars had vestibules on both ends. Some streamline coaches has folding steps..The steps would open only if the dutch doors was being open.
Larry, where did this come from? While most heavyweight coaches and Pullmans had vestibules on both ends, virtually no streamlined or light weight cars had vestibules on both ends.
Pullman did have two or three heavyweight sleeper floor plans with only one vestibule. As noted by others, diners generally did not have any - streamlined or heavy weight.
Some railroads had preferences for vestibule placement, some did not. Sometimes such requirements were specific to a particular route, do to station requirements. Sometimes name trains had requirements based on appearance and passenger convenience.
Remember that before the 1960's, railroad considered passenger service an important part of their image, even if it was not making much money. Later such details would be ignored unless it had a real operational reason such as passenger platform access.
Unless you know what your railroad did and why, do what you like because railroad seldom turned equipment unless there was a reason. But many big terminals did have balloon tracks or whole train wyes, and turned whole consists for each trip.
Remember too that many big terminals were sub end, fed from a wye, so trains backed in and then could leave in either direction, effectively turning the train for the return trip if that was the end of its route.
So very often consists remained complete in the order they where set up in except for possible head end car switching or car change outs for maintenance.
After AMTRAK, many older lightweight cars that AMTRAK or local commuter lines inherited received fixed seats, no more reversable seats. Often they would be half one way, half the other way. Many such cars were used in push/pull commuter service - never turned - find a seat you like - or ride backwards!
Sheldon
Part of my perspective is slanted by living in large east coast urban areas that had a lot of passenger trains.
For every one "Broadway Limited" railroads ran a hundred short run, all coach commuter and short distance trains that were never turned. The PRR owned more P70 coaches than the ATSF owned of all types of passenger equipment. When most modelers talk about a "typical" passenger train they talk about RPO's, baggage cars, coaches, diners, sleeping cars and observation cars. When I think of a "typical" pasenger train I see a half dozen coaches because that's what 75-80% of all passenger trains were. Just a matter of personal experience.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, where did this come from? While most heavyweight coaches and Pullmans had vestibules on both ends, virtually no streamlined or light weight cars had vestibules on both ends.
Do some research and you will see some streamline coaches had vestibules on both ends.These had hidden steps that would fold down once the door was open.
Also it wasn't a matter of turning a passenger train on a balloon track..There was several passenger stations that required switching the train also passenger cars would go to the clean out track then to the storage track until needed,Pullmans to the Pullman servicing tracks diners would be scrub clean and taken to the commissary track. Mail storage cars would go to the post office building express cars to the REA building.
A large passenger terminal operation could be a layout in its self.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, where did this come from? While most heavyweight coaches and Pullmans had vestibules on both ends, virtually no streamlined or light weight cars had vestibules on both ends. Do some research and you will see some streamline coaches had vestibules on both ends.These had hidden steps that would fold down once the door was open. Also it wasn't a matter of turning a passenger train on a balloon track..There was several passenger stations that required switching the train also passenger cars would go to the clean out track then to the storage track until needed,Pullmans to the Pullman servicing tracks diners would be scrub clean and taken to the commissary track. Mail storage cars would go to the post office building express cars to the REA building. A large passenger terminal operation could be a layout in its self.
Yes, SOME streamlined coaches had two vestibules - Some like in very few. And the OP was asking specifically about those that did not - implying he was asking about the majority of streamlined cars.
I am well aware of the other servicing needs of passenger cars - not really part of the OP's question.