Hi all. I'm modeling somewhere between 1925ish-early 50's. Though I don't consider myself a huge "prototypical" modeler, I find myself trying to adhere to some basics, like tank cars being seperated from loco/caboose by five cars (read that somewhere on the forums).
When running a passenger consist, I tend to run RPO's behind loco, with baggage area to rear (again, read somewhere about mail crew being inaccessible as possible to rest of consist), followed by baggage, and observation in rear (duh). Which leaves me with coaches, sleepers, and diners.
How would these normally be ordered? I remember my late father in the past saying something about sleepers being towaeds the rear, away from loco noise and whistles. I normally put coaches after baggage, sleeper, dining car, then observation. Would this be "correct"? Would there be a "normal" setup, or were the RR's that picky? I put dining and observations together with the thought they are "service" cars, and so could be loaded with food/beverages in the same place easier.
If it makes a difference, I model UP and Santa Fe. Thanks to all in advance for any help in this regard!
Duane
first, one word. GOOGLE now back to your question. if you google passenger train consists you will get a bunch of hits. the utah rails site has a bunch of Uncle Pete stuff. the diners were usually in the middle of the train so as to be equidistant from most passengers. any cars to be set out before final destination tended to be toward the rear.
Charlie
Thanks Charlie.... I tried looking this up a couple of weeks ago, but apparently "passenger train consists" are the magic words. I tried things like "passenger car order" and got nowhere with it. A search using these particular words definately brings a bunch up, and put diners smack in the middle, sleepers to the rear. Too easy!
duane, many times long distance trains carried sleepers that were set out along the way. for instance a cross country train might have a sleeper just for the denver passengers since the train arrived there at, say, 3:00 am and they were allowed to stay on the car until 8 or 9. didn't want to wake up a bunch of grouches in the middle of the night and try to throw them off the train in their pajamas. good to have it near the rear end so the station switcher could throw it out of the train.
Hi, Duane
Another reason the coaches were usually nearer the head end was that while the mail and express were being "worked" (loaded and unloaded) the coach passengers could also board and detrain since they were generally shorter haul passengers and sometimes the sleepers were being set-out or added at the rear as Charlie said. And at some of the smaller stations the platforms weren't that long and the coaches were kept closer to the head end for that reason, too.
Sometimes the diners were set out at intervals that were convenient to dinner/breakfast times, too. It was easier to restock those cars when they were nearer the commissary and frequently the same diner used on an evening westbound would be switched into a morning eastbound bouncing back and forth between the same two points and serviced during the brief layover. On the New York Central just about every diner in the heavyweight days was switched at Buffalo. The NYC almost ran "Lines East" and "Lines West" (of Buffalo) as two separate railroads for accounting department purposes. When the Century and other top trains were competing for speed after the War they started using "through" diners to save time in breaking up the train and having to do a brake test.
Usually if a lounge car was carried it was between the diner and the sleepers so it was more convenient to the Pullman passengers. The lounge was usually run by Pullman and the diner by the railroad (the Pullman passengers usually had deeper pockets to spend money on drinks into the wee hours.) It was a better way to keep coach passengers from "wandering" back to the Pullmans, too.Now, in some cases the consist was put together with various destinations in mind as well so the train could be split so cars for say St. Louis could be tied on to another consist arriving from Detroit and Cincinnati (or your choice of cities.)
Passenger operations are another fascinating study and in many cases the consist goes through many changes over the route so that what arrives at point B is very different than what left point A.
Hope this helps, ED
I plan on modeling the heavyweight era, so I can give some info on that...
Santa "de Luxe" , Late 20's early 30's, RPO-Dining-Lounge-Sleeper-Sleeper-Observation
Santa "The Chief", Late 20's early 30's, RPO-Baggage-Sleeper-Sleeper-Lounge-Dining-Sleeper-Observation
This is all ffrom a quick glance of Steam, Steel, and Limiteds by Kratville.
If you go to http://www.katousa.com/ and search under N scale and Rolling Stock, consists for the Santa Fe "Super Chief", "El Capitan", and the UP "City of Los Angeles" are shown for the 50's.
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Thanks again to all of you. I had no idea all of this car changing was going on with these trains! It all makes sense though. Fortunately, as all of this has pointed to, I've been setting my consists up pretty "correctly", though this all gives me a lot more understanding why they are the way they are, more so than just keeping sleepers farther from the noisy loco.
Ed, you mentioned a situation that fits my layout and station stop to a tee, having a small platform. My station is nothing more that a "whistle stop" with a very small interchange yard. A Pacific dwarfs the station, let alone when a 4-8-4 or Challenger come by! Depending where the loco stops, maybe for servicing, passengers may deboard right into the parking lot using stepping blocks. Anyone beyond the coaches will need to come forward through the train for deboarding. It exists for the purpose of receiving rural goods, ocassional coal mine or logging goods, and a small amount of passenger business, maybe a mine or logging bigwig checking on operations or the ocassional needed trip to the "big city", wherever that may be. A water tower and coal tower exist, right on the main line a couple hundred feet away, with recently added fueling capability for the arrival of fuel burners showing up on the scene; the entire line is a one line helper district ran by UP and ATSF between two fictional larger interchanges. The yard is nothing more than a few tracks to change logs from skeleton cars to interchange flats and set out small coal shipments from the mine above, all brought down by a Shay. There is a through main on the other side of the yard, which sees most traffic coming through this area, however it is blocked on one end or the other if a train is stopped at the station.
This has been very informative for me; cool stuff to learn more about than I anticipated! Thank you all!
You should pick up a copy of "Night Trains". I see you can find some used ones on Amazon at reasonable prices. Or at trains shows...I'm not necessarily endorsing this source.
http://www.amazon.com/Night-Trains-Pullman-Systems-American/dp/0801845033/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363529481&sr=1-5&keywords=night+trains
The order
Engine->Mail->Baggage->Combine->Coach->Diner->Sleepers->Observation
The sleepers were kept at the rear of the train because they were furthest from the smoke. The scum class* are the ones who got a mouth/eyefull if they popped their head out the window.
Depending on the road, the Diner would be sometimes slaped on the end of the train because it lended for easy swap out when they were done with it for the day. (There's no need for a diner car when running a train overnight.)
*"scum class" comes from a top gear episode where they made their own passenger train using caravans. The worst part of the train was coach, or "scum class."
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
The passenger train photos I seen been a mixture but,most was express,express,mail storage,mail storage(these was baggage cars) baggage car,coach,coach,coach,diner,pullman,pullman and regular lounge or observation.
I read where the dinner was place in the middle so the coach passengers didn't have to walk through the pullmans.
Larry
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Yes the diner was often used as a "buffer" between coach and first class (sleeper) passengers...so you'd have 'head end cars' (baggage / RPOs) coaches, diner, sleepers, observation. On some railroads / trains anyone could go back to the observation car, on some, only first class passengers could go there.
On trains that only ran during the day, they would have one or more parlor cars for first class passengers. The C&NW's "400" would have several coaches ahead of the diner, and several parlor cars and an observation car behind it.
Some top passenger trains were "all Pullman", like the Twentieth Century Limited on the New York Central. Except for the dining car(s), all cars (even the combination baggage - smoking car up front) were lettered "PULLMAN".
During peak times, some trains would have to run in several 'sections' to serve all the riders. On Great Northern's Empire Builder, you sometimes had all the coach cars in one section, and all the Pullman cars in another, rather than combining them. (Each section could be up to 14 cars or so, and during WW2 might run in 5-6-7 sections.)
Well Stix, this brings about more research fodder to look into... As for the order, yesterday a.m. saw the big 0-5-0 manual switcher change the car order, putting the diner between coach and sleeper. Now to stuff my freight consist into the yard for a bit and run the passenger train around some...
ndbprrIn your era there were no restrictions on tank car location in a train that I know of. Passenger car locations within ATSF trains should be available from the ATSF Historical Society.
Do respectfully beg to differ. Hazmat rules (aka Placarded Car rules) predate the word hazmat by a good many decades - pre USRA, for most of them. Those listed in Rights of Trains date back to the early 20th Century. Peter Josserand merely updated a book written in 1907.
Regarding tank cars loaded with flammable material, unless the entire train consisted of loaded tank cars they had to be separated from locomotives and occupied cars (cabooses and rider cars) by at least five non-hazardous cars. Tank cars carrying non-flammables (corn syrup, edible oils,,,) were exempt from these rules since they didn't constitute a fire hazard. If the train was short, the number of buffer cars could be reduced but could never be less than two. The same rules applied to other kinds of cars carrying other kinds of hazardous cargo.
There is/was also a restriction placed on loads that could shift lengthwise (like telephone poles stacked above the ends in gondolas.) At least one buffer car was required between that car and any locomotive or occupied car.
Keeping track of hazardous cars, and positioning them properly, is just one more way to make model operations interesting.
As for passenger consists, my prototype makes it easy for me. The consists of all trains carrying extra-fare cars are listed in the (telephone book size) public timetable - and I have the pertinent issue.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with placarded cars)
wjstix Some top passenger trains were "all Pullman", like the Twentieth Century Limited on the New York Central. Except for the dining car(s), all cars (even the combination baggage - smoking car up front) were lettered "PULLMAN".
I've seen passengers with 4-5 express cars and 3 or 4 mail storage,baggage and 2 coaches,"snack" car and 3 or 4 more coaches..If you wanted to sleep you recline your seat and used the foot rest...These wasn't locals but,2nd class passenger trains that was a 12-18 hour ride that usually left in the early morning and arrived late evening.Creature comfort wasn't a high priority.I road one of these trains on the B&O from Cincinnati to St.Louis in '69.Of course at that time it was two E8s,2 mail storage baggage cars,baggage experess and 3 coaches and a snack car.
Back in the steam era, New York Central ran something like 18 different trains just between New York and Chicago. These went from all-Pullman luxury trains, to work-a-day mail trains with a few coaches at the end. I suspect in a typical day in the 1920's NYC alone ran more passenger trains on it's system than Amtrak runs today in the entire nation.
i think back when i started, we had dangerous cars that required 5 cars of cover and combustible placards that got 1 car of cover. i do remember the restrictions on open loads being prohibited next to an occupied caboose or engine. loads that could shift could not run next to a dangerous car nor could running mechanical reefers.
remember when all gas trucks drug a chain underneath? how about when flammable and inflammable meant the same thing?
didn't rpo cars have to be the head occupied car in the train?
charlie9 didn't rpo cars have to be the head occupied car in the train? Charlie
The RPOs was usually place behind the express and the sealed mail storage cars (if the train was carrying any mail storage cars)..
Also, on a mail train with "working" RPO cars, the RPO would be placed next to (or between two) baggage cars carrying mail, so that the mail clerks could access bagged mail in the neighboring cars and bring them to the RPO to sort. BTW that could be a tough job, a lot of RPO clerks ended up with 'the shakes', hand and arm tremors, from the years of pounding they took standing in the RPO cars working.
wjstixBTW that could be a tough job, a lot of RPO clerks ended up with 'the shakes', hand and arm tremors, from the years of pounding they took standing in the RPO cars working.
I found this interesting as my wife is a massage therapist. I read this and wondered, "why would this be?". So I asked her- bottom line is as these clerks are working and being jostled around the whole time, the brain is constantly sending nerve signals to the body to "adjust" to the movement, to keep steady. Over time, repeated over and over, the brain begins to "believe" this situation to be normal, thus the brain and nervous system constantly try to "adjust", though there is nothing to adjust to.
Anyway, for what that's worth.... I am learning all kinds of things with this thread!