I model 1939 and wonder what models are out there for that year in HO prefer RTR but will build. I am quite confused by what is out there for these or what was (don't mind e-bay and the like). Also I had a pic of a freight care yard of this era with callouts as to cars shown, I got out of a mag and can't find my copy, any ideas?????????
From The Postwar Freight Car Fleet published by AC Kalmbach Library, National Model Railroad Association:
Some railroads converted open top hoppers to covered hoppers starting in 1931. These were mainly for cement service. Most conversions were of 50-ton or 55-ton twin hoppers.
The book has a photo of a Pensylvania car converted in 1933. The car was originally built by Standard Steel Company in 1904. There is a photo of a Reading car built 1919, coverted in 1934. Another Reading car pictured is a 2-bay covered hopper which was converted from a 4-bay open hopper in 1947, but the caption state the first such conversions were first done in 1939.
These cars by Bowser appears to be suitable:
http://modelrailroader.net/hof_2baychop.php
Bowser website http://www.bowser-trains.com/ shows prices of kits $13.95, RTR $22.95
Walthers has some, but most are "out of stock"
The Bowser open side car looks like an American Car and Foundry design from 1932 pictured in the book.
The book doesent have any photos of the closed side design, but it is probanly from the same period.
Intermountain makes models that also appear to be the AC&F open side design. They are more expensive than the Bower cars. RTR $31.95, Kit $19.95. Kato also has models that look like this design. RTR 3-pack $45.00.
It looks like a representation of the Reading 1934 conversion could be made from a Tichy Train Group (Intermountain) open hopper. Besides adding a roof, the discharge gates would have to be changed. Discharge gates from a Intemountain Cylindrical Covered Hopper might work. The open hopper is $32.95. An undecorated Intetmountain Clyndrical hopper kit is $19.95 and would provide four discharge gates (enough for two cars).
The PS2 2-bay covered hopper is a post war design but it might be possible to make a representation of a 1935-1953 AC&F design (pictured in the book) from it. It would be necessary to cut triangular opening in each side (not sure this is possible), add a vertical rib in the center of each side and probably replace the round hatches with square hatches. Furano & Camerlango ACF 1790 cf 10 hatch covered hopper (Walthers 279-6890) appears to be a model of this design.
F&C covered hopper (Walthers 279-6370) is a converted open top car. F&C (Walthers 279-6610 is also a converted open top car. There may be other suitable F&C models
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Information in this discussion might be useful:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/175157/1922491.aspx#1922491
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
In 1939, there were covered hoppers(usually used in cement service), but they were sort of rare as they were an expensive 'single purpose' car. Much cement output was 'bagged' and loaded in box cars. There were 'home-built' conversions of twin bay open hoppers by several railroads. The ACF twin bay covered hopper was one of the first that really sold in numbers, and was around in 1939. The Bowser & Intermountain models are good representations of that car and would be appropriate. The Atlas. Kato, & MDC/Athearn models of the Pullman Standard PS-2 are 'post war' cars, so would not fit into the 1939 era you are looking at.
Rail served cement business has been rather 'regional' and usually these cars do not roam more than 400-500 miles from the cement plants(at least through the late 50's/early 60's). That being said, it would not be typical for a C&NW cement car that had been loaded in Mason City, IA to be seen in Mobile, AL. The owning railroads usually kept pretty tight control on these expensive fleets at that time.
Even today, the big cement plants load covered hoppers of cement, and 50' box cars with bagged cement.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier The Atlas. Kato, & MDC/Athearn models of the Pullman Standard PS-2 are 'post war' cars, so would not fit into the 1939 era you are looking at. Jim
The Atlas. Kato, & MDC/Athearn models of the Pullman Standard PS-2 are 'post war' cars, so would not fit into the 1939 era you are looking at.
Tthe Kato open side car is not a PS2. All the photos of PS2's I find on the web and in my book collection are closed side. The Kato open side cars are probably Pullman Standard open side cars (not PS2) from the early to mid 50's. To me they look close enough to the AC&F cars to be a stand in. Others may disagree.
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In Pullman-Standard Freight Cars 1900-1960 by Edward S. Kaminski is a photo of a Atlantic Coast Line car, 100 built in 1920, for Phosphate service. The lower half is steel, but the upper half is wood. Loading is through doors in the wood sides. There are no roof hatches.
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American Car & Foundary Company 1899-1999, also by Kaminski, has a photo of an expermintal 2-comparment covered hopper built for Anhauser-Busch in 1911. It was their first covered hopper.
There is also a photo if a Coltexo Corporation 3-bay covered hopper built in 1936 for carbon black service.
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Covered hoppers were rare before the mid 1950's. In the NMRA book they state the used every photo they had available. (6 photos). AC&F started building the open side cars in 1932. I don't know about the closed side cars. Most of the covered hopper photos in Kamanski's books are of cars built after 1950 however some of the designs are earlier.
Guess they don;t have many pics then I have a book on just READING covered hoppers and there are more than 6 pics from before the 1950's, of those early cars that were conversions from open hoopers. Multiple types, actually. One of the ones, to call it a 'conversion' is a little disingenious, they literally broke the car down into component pieces and rebuilt it, witht he sides shortened.
It may be safe to sya there weren;t very many covered hopped actually built as such before the mid 50's, since so many of these conversions were going on.
I have yet to see any even resin kits of the early Reading cars, in Sept 1997 MR there is an article on building two types of these early cars, I'm actually working on a few, but it's a scratchbuilding/kitbashing project, you can;t just go pick these up somewhere.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The Bowser cars with open sides are much later for 1939. Both the 2 bay cars are 70 ton cars. Bowser has announced that they will be coming out with the PRR H30 covered hopper. As far as I know the H30 was the first purpose built covered hopper. All others of the time period were conversions of older open top cars and gons that were converted by the railroad for a specific load such as cement, fly ash, washed and dried sand, Lime, and crushed bone for the gelatin industries. It was because of the cement industry outgrowth that was the inspiration for the covered hopper.
The H30 was a product of 1935. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=h30.gif&sel=hopp&sz=sm&fr=
For a railroad to build an entire class of car in the midst of the great depression is an amazement. The costs involved in a conversion of an open top car must have been too much for busy shop forces to accomplish.
Before the H32 was the GLe class. But this is a conversion of an open top GLa hopper.
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=gle.gif&sel=hopp&sz=sm&fr=
Notice the beefed up sides of the GLe over the original GLa.
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=GLa-E77486.gif&sel=hopp&sz=sm&fr=
Goes to show it was just not as simple as tossing a top on.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
So what I am hearing is that I only need 2 to 3 to fill out the freight yard. I also, tell me if i'm wrong, get that the new Bowser covered hoppers they are coming out with are fine. Would like that as the detailing goes beter with the Proto and other cars I have of that nature.
rrebell So what I am hearing is that I only need 2 to 3 to fill out the freight yard.
So what I am hearing is that I only need 2 to 3 to fill out the freight yard.
Not necessairly. While rare in the overall car fleet, there were probably areas where they were very common and they were probably never seen in most of the country.
One mistake often made is to base the proportion of car types and/or road names on statistics for the fleet instead of basing it on the location modeled, which of course is much harder (most likely impossible) in most cases.
Two ways in which a lot of them could be justified are:
The cars serving at least one business that you are modeling.
They are overhead traffic in the area modeled. Traveling to/from locations on other parts of your railroad or on other railroads.
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Anyone remember/know where to find an article or information about a layout consisting of an accurate model of one station area, and lots of hidden staging track. The modeler was modeling every train that ran through in a specific time period on a specific day. He had somehow obtained the information needed to do it. That is listing of every engine and every car on every train and the time the trains went through that day.
I think I have a magazine with an article about the layout but have not been able to find it.
Depending on the road and area you model. Perhaps one would be plenty or if you model up state New York or eastern Pennsylvania then more than 4 or 5 would be typical. That time frame saw many of a bulk commodity still using box cars with what they called grain doors. The cars were used for anything that could be shoveled, swept with a broom, or stacked in bags.
Barstow yard 1943. Not one covered hopper. Notice on the left a B&O covered wagon box car.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279
Bensonville 1943. Notice all the wood side war baby gons. Not one covered.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/6969
Proviso yard 12/42
http://www.shorpy.com/node/3358
Proviso again in 43.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/1605
I would say if your railroad has no large cement industry then you will probably not need a covered hopper.
locoi1sa Depending on the road and area you model. Perhaps one would be plenty or if you model up state New York or eastern Pennsylvania then more than 4 or 5 would be typical. That time frame saw many of a bulk commodity still using box cars with what they called grain doors. The cars were used for anything that could be shoveled, swept with a broom, or stacked in bags. Barstow yard 1943. Not one covered hopper. Notice on the left a B&O covered wagon box car. http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279 Bensonville 1943. Notice all the wood side war baby gons. Not one covered. http://www.shorpy.com/node/6969 Proviso yard 12/42 http://www.shorpy.com/node/3358 Proviso again in 43. http://www.shorpy.com/node/1605 I would say if your railroad has no large cement industry then you will probably not need a covered hopper. Pete
Well not so fast, cement was not the only such load: kaolin, carbon black, sand are among the other loads for that era that had covered hoppers. The 1937 Car Builder's Cyclopedia shows a Cabot Spheron carbon black covered hopper. An ad for Enterprise Railway Equipment shows an Erie cement covered hopper but the text mentions lime, sand, concentrates, grain and "other products." The '37 Cyc shows a variety of cement covered hoppers for Pennsy, D&H, B&O, N&W, Erie, ACFX, but a DT&I covered hopper is described as being for "dry lading" while a National Plate Glass Company car is for dry sand. A 70 ton Seaboard covered hopper is for phosphates. An ACF ad shows a C&O car with no lading specified. And a photo shows a converted USRA boxcar with hopper bottom for the D&H in cement service and what look like roof hatches near the door. All that in the 1937 issue.
Robert Wayner's interesting Freight Car Pictorial is loaded with rare photos (including an old box car with a gap between the sides and the floor making it easier t sweep clean!) that shows a covered hopper built for grain service by the Canadian Pacific in 1919 -- capacity 150,000 so it was huge for its time and looks surprisingly "modern." I have no idea if the idea caught on or was developed but it shows that someone was thinking about covered hoppers and grain well before WWII.
The same book shows a short covered hopper lettered Central of Georgia, with a blt 11-40 date visible, said to be in kaolin service (kaolin is a fine powdered clay used in paper, cosmetics, and a host of other uses).
Years ago MR (November 1964) published a drawing of what looked like a standard 1901 B&O double sheathed wood boxcar but had hopper bottoms making it a variety of covered hopper. Actually it was convertible floor -- flat or hopper -- Manning Patent car that evidently other roads used too. It was loaded through small hinged doors on the sides near the roofline not through the roof itself.
Older modelers might remember when Varney sold a "covered hopper" that was nothing more than their standard two bay coal hopper with a roof casting added.
Dave Nelson
Dave.
You are correct. But still dependent on area is where you will find concentrations of like cars. I remember the carbon black cars in the seventies. Those were cars for only one commodity. Nothing could get them clean. Mostly concentrated around Akron Ohio. Very rarely would you see one around Cleveland.
There was a series of articles in RMC about essential freight cars. Also in TKM there was an article and chart breakdown going branch by branch on the PRR about how many home road cars compared to foreign road cars.
DSchmitt jrbernier The Atlas. Kato, & MDC/Athearn models of the Pullman Standard PS-2 are 'post war' cars, so would not fit into the 1939 era you are looking at. Jim
Opps - I meant Kadee!
dknelson Well not so fast, cement was not the only such load: kaolin, carbon black, sand are among the other loads for that era that had covered hoppers. The 1937 Car Builder's Cyclopedia shows a Cabot Spheron carbon black covered hopper. An ad for Enterprise Railway Equipment shows an Erie cement covered hopper but the text mentions lime, sand, concentrates, grain and "other products." The '37 Cyc shows a variety of cement covered hoppers for Pennsy, D&H, B&O, N&W, Erie, ACFX, but a DT&I covered hopper is described as being for "dry lading" while a National Plate Glass Company car is for dry sand. A 70 ton Seaboard covered hopper is for phosphates. An ACF ad shows a C&O car with no lading specified. And a photo shows a converted USRA boxcar with hopper bottom for the D&H in cement service and what look like roof hatches near the door. All that in the 1937 issue. Robert Wayner's interesting Freight Car Pictorial is loaded with rare photos (including an old box car with a gap between the sides and the floor making it easier t sweep clean!) that shows a covered hopper built for grain service by the Canadian Pacific in 1919 -- capacity 150,000 so it was huge for its time and looks surprisingly "modern." I have no idea if the idea caught on or was developed but it shows that someone was thinking about covered hoppers and grain well before WWII. The same book shows a short covered hopper lettered Central of Georgia, with a blt 11-40 date visible, said to be in kaolin service (kaolin is a fine powdered clay used in paper, cosmetics, and a host of other uses). Years ago MR (November 1964) published a drawing of what looked like a standard 1901 B&O double sheathed wood boxcar but had hopper bottoms making it a variety of covered hopper. Actually it was convertible floor -- flat or hopper -- Manning Patent car that evidently other roads used too. It was loaded through small hinged doors on the sides near the roofline not through the roof itself. Older modelers might remember when Varney sold a "covered hopper" that was nothing more than their standard two bay coal hopper with a roof casting added. Dave Nelson
Tichy offers the D&H cement car, complete with roof hatches and underfloor hoppers. As for the Varney covered hopper, I had one back in the '50s, but it's since lost its roof:
This Railshop carbon black hopper is based on a prototype built in 1934, but I was unable to get one lettered for Columbian Carbon, which had/has a plant in my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario. I wasn't around in 1939, though.
The CPR owned a number of "convertible" boxcars, with four hoppers concealed under doors in the floor. It could function as a regular boxcar with the doors down, or as a covered hopper with the doors folded-up against the car's interior. These cars had no roof hatches, though.Between the D&H cars which Dave mentioned and those CPR cars, I decided to make some for my free-lance road, also set in the late '30s. The four cars are based on the Fowler-Patent 36' boxcar, a car owned in the thousands by CPR. Evergreen car siding and structural shapes make up the carbody and underframe, with detail parts from Tichy and Walthers. The roof hatches are by Detail Associates, while the underfloor longitudinal hoppers were scratchbuilt. These cars operate in assigned service for GERN Industries:
However, GERN generates a lot of traffic and their engineers teamed up with those of the railroad to design a purpose-built car to handle granular and powdered material. Actual construction, in 1937, was by National Steel Car, in nearby Hamilton. Here's one spotted at GERN's Port Maitland facility:
ACF later bought the rights to build similar cars in the U.S., so the Bowser models, both open- and closed-side, are perfect representations of the prototype. I've always liked covered hoppers, and have several of the MDC PS-2 style (also too modern) and several Bowser cars lettered for other roads. GERN has a couple of their own cars, too, with GILX reporting marks.
This one, with a 1956 BLT date, may seem to be from the Twilight Zone on my late '30s road, but it's one of my favourite cars from my favourite prototype road, and it makes an occasional appearance:
Wayne
I want one of those convertables!!!!!!!
Another nifty oddball is this Reading car that F&C has a kit of: http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/8196.html
It just misses by a couple of years, these went in service around 1941. The box cars they were built from go back to the 20's. The Hershey plant is an on-line industy to the Reading, these cars were in captive service to transport cocoa beans to the plant, and later was was parked constantly at the plant to use as a storage hopper.
Found an excellent picture of the use of a box car for hauling a bulk commodity. If you click the picture it becomes very big and you can see the coal inside the Lake Erie & Western box car.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/9952
Click on this pic and you can see the HC Frick coke co. hopper bottom box cars. They are being unloaded over a rail dump.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/10316
One of my uncles worked at that mill from high school until retirement. He's been gone for over thirty years now. A victim of the steel industry. Black lung was not just for minors.
Here is a PDF from the B&O historical society. It has a great picture of the class N31 wagon top covered hopper and a great kit bash article on kit bashing an N0 wagon top hopper. These B&O cars were very unique.
http://www.borhs.org/modelermag/BO_Modeler_7_2011_MarApr.pdf
This all I have for now.
locoi1sa Here is a PDF from the B&O historical society. It has a great picture of the class N31 wagon top covered hopper and a great kit bash article on kit bashing an N0 wagon top hopper. These B&O cars were very unique. http://www.borhs.org/modelermag/BO_Modeler_7_2011_MarApr.pdf This all I have for now. Pete
WAGON TOP COVERED HOPPER!
I like B&O Wagon Top cars I may try to make one in N scale, although it does not fit my location (west coast) or era (mid 1970's).
Found: HO scale resin kit by Funaro & Camerlengo, I just bought one through ebay
There are also a brass models by Overland in HO and a brass O scale model
I'm glad they included the disclaimer, because the N-0 wagon top open hopper article was so well done it had me going.
rrinker I'm glad they included the disclaimer, because the N-0 wagon top open hopper article was so well done it had me going. --Randy
Me too. But the covered hopper and caboose are real.
Yes, Spring Mills just came out with a RTR model of the cabooses.
Hence the Class N0 ! Still would have been a good looking car if it ever was. One of the earlier pictures I linked to had a wagon top box car. They made hundreds of them.
I looked through my N Scale car fleet. It looks like an Atlas-Trainman PS2 2 bay covered hopper could be made into a pretty good replica of B&O Wagon Top covered hopper. Removing the section as shown would result in the correct wheelbase and length.
751-11364Smod1-2 by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr
HO Model
KGrHqFqsFCyOZfKsuBQ4L34kocw60_57 by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr
O Scale Sunset Model
While the B&O wagontop boxcar was a success and produced in relatively substantial numbers, the CPR investigated a similar design. The photo shown below is from a book printed in 1916.
The CPR version of a wagontop car was a 40 ton capacity steel car, with 11 ribs (same as the B&O M-53) but only 36' long. The ends were flat (similar to the Pennsy's early X-29s) but had two external horizontal hat-section braces. Trucks were archbar and the door, strangely, was wood, similar to that used on the USRA double sheathed boxcars. As you can see, there's a seam at the juncture between the sides and roof, something much improved in the B&O design.
The November 2000 Model Railroader had Keith Kohlmann's excellent article on kitbashing a B&O wagon top covered hopper using a wagontop boxcar as the basis. The general idea is not unlike what that article linked to above is all about.
dknelson The November 2000 Model Railroader had Keith Kohlmann's excellent article on kitbashing a B&O wagon top covered hopper using a wagontop boxcar as the basis. The general idea is not unlike what that article linked to above is all about. Dave Nelson
And it's N SCALE! I think I have an unbuilt Fine N Scale Wagon Top in my collection. I know I have several built ones. I will consider this alternative.
Thankyou
Gidday, In the November 1995 Model Railroader there is an article by Allan N Houghton on how he kitbashed, from "Model Die Casting" covered hoppers, "Maine Central" covered hoppers, the first batch of 10 which where originally built in 1937, another 100 where built over the period from 1940- 1957. While not having seen the Bowser kit .....
70 Ton 2-Bay Covered Hopper
.......in the flesh, that apart from the fact that the 1937 batch had a 55 ton capacity and that they are numbered for the 1947 batch, I have thought that these would be a reasonable representation something I see that, DoctorWayne mentions.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
The B&O Wagon Top in the November 2000 Model Railroader is 4 feet too long according to the clearance diagram drawing in B&O Modeler.
I looked at the trainman PS2 again. It appears it would result in a model that is 1-ft too short.
However, the boxcar conversion might be the better way to make the model. Because of the way the PS2 is constucted, trying ti convert it might destroy it.
Looks like alot more info out there than I thought. Keep it going, very interested!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Found what I wanted. Kato makes them, they also make a middle version 1940 and a recent version 1954 design. Their early version is a dead rignger for a 1934 car.