Need water pump with Elesco Feed Water Heater?

[Isambard]

I plan to install an Elesco feed water heater in front of the stack on my Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation. The existing left hand feed water installation feeds water from a lifting(?) injector in front of the cab above the 4th driver, to the boiler input check valve above the 1st driver over the running board.
Would it be technically correct to redirect that line by disconnecting it from the existing checkvalve and extending it to the Elesco feed water inlet, and bring the heated feed water outlet line from the Elesco down to the existing check valve? Or do I need a feed water pump in addition to the injector or instead of?
Comments appreciated please.

[orsonroy]

Every feedwater system had a pump somewhere on the engine. The most commonly used Elesco system used a feedwater pump that looked a lot like an air pump. Placement depended on the whim and standard practices of whatever road you're modeling, but the "general" arrangement was to have the pump mounted along the running board, about 2/3 of the way back from the smokebox (towards the cab), on the side opposite the air pump (to equalize weight).

The injector line on the fireman's side ran from the water siphon to the pump, and from the pump to the heater. The check valve would run from the heater to the boiler. On the engineer's side, the injector line ran from the water siphon to the check valve, and a water condenser line ran from the heater to the water siphon. (at least, that's how my photos of NKP mikes with Elesco systems show the piping!)

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

Every feedwater system had a pump somewhere on the engine. The most commonly used Elesco system used a feedwater pump that looked a lot like an air pump. Placement depended on the whim and standard practices of whatever road you're modeling, but the "general" arrangement was to have the pump mounted along the running board, about 2/3 of the way back from the smokebox (towards the cab), on the side opposite the air pump (to equalize weight).

The injector line on the fireman's side ran from the water siphon to the pump, and from the pump to the heater. The check valve would run from the heater to the boiler. On the engineer's side, the injector line ran from the water siphon to the check valve, and a water condenser line ran from the heater to the water siphon. (at least, that's how my photos of NKP mikes with Elesco systems show the piping!)

Thanks Ray. Thinking also about the installation and physics involved in the feed water heater circuit, I've concluded that I do need a pump to move water up to the Elesco, through the four passes within it, back to the check valve and into the boiler. I would guess that a lifting injector wouldn't provide enough pressure and flow rate. It will be interesting to see if there are still any steam locomotive wizards alive out there who might confirm.

[jrbarney]

Isambard,
I'm certainly no expert, and the following quote isn't totally definitive, but according to page 182 of George H. Drury's book, "Feeedwater heater systems usually replaced the injector on the left side of the locomotive; the right injector was retained. (Underlining mine.)" Nowhere in the rest of the text relating to closed feedwater systems does it state whether the injectors were lifting or non-lifting. The text also states that , "Canadian National seemed to put feedwater heaters on all of its locomotives, . . . " It would appear that you'll have to work from a photo of the specific engine you want to model. Hope your copy of the book arrives soon.
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[Anonymous]

I'm not aware of any feedwater heater system supplied by an injector rather than a feedwater pump. I can say with confidence that a single feedwater line would not be equipped with both an injector and a feedwater pump. A couple other points:

Whether an injector is of the lifting or nonlifting variety is easily determined by the hight at which it is located on the locomotive. If it's below the level of the floor of the water tank of the tender, it's nonlifting. Water is delivered to a nonlifting injector by gravity.

A lifting injector is located above the level of the bottom of the water tank, and is fed by inducing a vacuum in the water supply line (this happens within the injector). Lifting injectors usually are located in front of or within the cab for ease of operation of the valves. (The Bachman 2-8-0 has lifting injectors on each side, ahead of the cab.)

All steam locomotives require two independent means of inducing water into the boiler. Two injectors can be used, or one injector and one feedwater pump. When two injector-fed lines are used, one is usually located on the fireman's side, the other on the engineer's side of the boiler.

As Mr. Drury noted, when a feedwater pump is used it generally is located on the fireman's side of the boiler. The reason behind this practice is that the fireman is responsible for operation of the principal means of inducing water into the boiler. The line connected to the feedwater heater will be the preferred feedwater line, so it makes sense to locate the feedwater pump on the fireman's side.

I have looked through my photos of CN steam power operating in the 1950s. All those equipped with Elesco feedwater heaters had water supplied by feedwater pumps located on the fireman's side. The secondary source of feedwater was an injector-driven line located on the engineer's side (both lifting and nonlifting injectors were utilized there). In each case, the supply lines were fed into the boiler through a top-mounted check valve.

--John

[Sperandeo]

Hello "Isambard,"

Yes, you do need a water pump with an Elesco feedwater heater system, and John is correct that you would not use an injector to supply water to a feedwater heater. See page 15 in the "Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Vol. 1: Steam Locomotives," for a diagram of a typical Elesco feedwater heater installation.

In general, any feedwater heater system on a locomotive will take the place of one injector. Usually the feedwater heater pumps are installed on the left or fireman's side of the engine, and an injector is used on the engineer's side.

So long,

Andy

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sperandeo

Hello "Isambard,"

Yes, you do need a water pump with an Elesco feedwater heater system, and John is correct that you would not use an injector to supply water to a feedwater heater. See page 15 in the "Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Vol. 1: Steam Locomotives," for a diagram of a typical Elesco feedwater heater installation.

In general, any feedwater heater system on a locomotive will take the place of one injector. Usually the feedwater heater pumps are installed on the left or fireman's side of the engine, and an injector is used on the engineer's side.

So long,

Andy

Thanks Andy. I have been poring over page 15 and Figure 27 for sometime, but am still trying to figure out which connections on my Spectrum 2-8-0 I can leave in place and which to change or replace. The 2-8-0 has an air compressor on the left hand side, where the feedwater pump would be located if Figure 27 is a guide. I assume therefore that I would have to move the air compressor (and tank?) to the right side to maintain locomotive balance. Does that make sense?

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the weight distribution issue. CNR often applied water pumps and air compressors on the same (fireman's) side of its locos. Class J-7-c Pacifics, Class S-1-f Mikados and various Class U-1 Mountains all used this arrangement.

On the Bachmann 2-8-0, the air compressor is correctly fed by a steam line from the turret (located at the forward, top portion of the cab). Its output line correctly runs to the main air reservoir.

The injector, located just above the running board and ahead of the cab, also has a steam supply line running to it from the turret. This, too, is correct. The injector on the model has 2 angled pipes running to it from below and behind. The rearmost line is the water supply line, which on the prototype is connected to the tender by a flexible connection. The forward line represents the injector overflow line, which on the prototype discharges steam and water until the injector "picks up" (that is, until the injector successfully lifts water from the tender, mixes it with a jet of steam, and forces the steam-water combination through the check valve and into the boiler).

Running forward from the injector is the water supply line to the fireman's -side check valve. This is correct. Running into the rear of the injector from the cab is what appears to be a pipe. What this is on the prototype is a valve stem for the operating valve of the injector.

If I were installing a feedwater pump on the Bachmann 2-8-0, I would remove the fireman's side injector, and all of the piping (and valve stem) I have described above.

Since there is little room just to the rear of the air compressor, I would be inclined to mount the replacement feedwater pump below (and perhaps a bit ahead of) the cab. This is a commom location on a variety of prototype locos.

To the feedwater pump, I would add a water supply line (aimed toward the tender) and a steam supply line (from the turret). The water output line should be run, in whatever way is convenient, to the inlet of the feedwater heater mounted atop the smokebox.

Then I would connect the feedwater heater output line to a top-mounted check valve. (The side-mounted check valve on the fireman's side would be removed, and the resulting hole in the boiler jacketing would be filled and sanded smooth in the process .)

On CNR locos, it seems to have been the common practice to run the engineer's side feedwater line from the (remaining) injector to the top-mounted check valve as well. If I were to duplicate this practice on the model, I would remove the supply line from the engineer's-side injector to the the side-mounted check valve, fill and sand the hole, and run a new supply line from that injector to the top-mounted check valve.

While I was at modifications to the engineer's-side injector, I would replace the thick "pipe" from the cab to the rear of the injector body with a (scale 3/4" or 1" diameter) "operating valve stem".

--John

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fiverings

I wouldn't get too hung up on the weight distribution issue. CNR often applied water pumps and air compressors on the same (fireman's) side of its locos. Class J-7-c Pacifics, Class S-1-f Mikados and various Class U-1 Mountains all used this arrangement.

On the Bachmann 2-8-0, the air compressor is correctly fed by a steam line from the turret (located at the forward, top portion of the cab). Its output line correctly runs to the main air reservoir.

The injector, located just above the running board and ahead of the cab, also has a steam supply line running to it from the turret. This, too, is correct. The injector on the model has 2 angled pipes running to it from below and behind. The rearmost line is the water supply line, which on the prototype is connected to the tender by a flexible connection. The forward line represents the injector overflow line, which on the prototype discharges steam and water until the injector "picks up" (that is, until the injector successfully lifts water from the tender, mixes it with a jet of steam, and forces the steam-water combination through the check valve and into the boiler).

Running forward from the injector is the water supply line to the fireman's -side check valve. This is correct. Running into the rear of the injector from the cab is what appears to be a pipe. What this is on the prototype is a valve stem for the operating valve of the injector.

If I were installing a feedwater pump on the Bachmann 2-8-0, I would remove the fireman's side injector, and all of the piping (and valve stem) I have described above.

Since there is little room just to the rear of the air compressor, I would be inclined to mount the replacement feedwater pump below (and perhaps a bit ahead of) the cab. This is a commom location on a variety of prototype locos.

To the feedwater pump, I would add a water supply line (aimed toward the tender) and a steam supply line (from the turret). The water output line should be run, in whatever way is convenient, to the inlet of the feedwater heater mounted atop the smokebox.

Then I would connect the feedwater heater output line to a top-mounted check valve. (The side-mounted check valve on the fireman's side would be removed, and the resulting hole in the boiler jacketing would be filled and sanded smooth in the process .)

On CNR locos, it seems to have been the common practice to run the engineer's side feedwater line from the (remaining) injector to the top-mounted check valve as well. If I were to duplicate this practice on the model, I would remove the supply line from the engineer's-side injector to the the side-mounted check valve, fill and sand the hole, and run a new supply line from that injector to the top-mounted check valve.

While I was at modifications to the engineer's-side injector, I would replace the thick "pipe" from the cab to the rear of the injector body with a (scale 1/4" diameter) "operating valve stem".

--John

Thanks for great response John. All I need now is to find a water pump. I have the other Elesco system parts by Cal-Scale.

[jrbarney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard


Thanks for great response John. All I need now is to find a water pump. I have the other Elesco system parts by Cal-Scale.

Isambard,
Precision Scale Co., Inc.'s locomotive catalogue page 60 is devoted to feedwater system components, both Elesco and Worthington. Part HO-3511 Elesco feedwater pump, HO-31080 Elesco CF-1 feedwater pump, or HO-32188 feedwater pump with dual filters, might be the part you need. Their Web site is:
http://www.precisionscaleco.com
Unfortunately, their Web site doesn't illustrate their many parts. You will have to access their catalogue, somehow.
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbarney

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard


Thanks for great response John. All I need now is to find a water pump. I have the other Elesco system parts by Cal-Scale.

Isambard,
Precision Scale Co., Inc.'s locomotive catalogue page 60 is devoted to feedwater system components, both Elesco and Worthington. Part HO-3511 Elesco feedwater pump, HO-31080 Elesco CF-1 feedwater pump, or HO-32188 feedwater pump with dual filters, might be the part you need. Their Web site is:
http://www.precisionscaleco.com
Unfortunately, their Web site doesn't illustrate their many parts. You will have to access their catalogue, somehow.
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

Thanks Bob:
Armed with that information I was able to track down a feedwater pump at my LHS. And now to work!