Hello, I currently model 1969 C,B,&Q in Nebraska, but I have an opportunity to purchase some Milwaukee Road passenger cars in the Orange liverey for a fair price. Now I know that the orange was painted to yellow in 1964, and that no Hiawatha train ever made it to where I am modeling, but everyone has some kind of equipment that's not period correct right?
So heres my problem, I have been searching for prototypical consists for the Milwaukee Road Twin Cities and Olympian Hiawatha trains with no success. Can anyone help. These are the Walthers cars that I am purchasing, I just want to make sure its prototypical, despite the fact that I dont model that railroad/time period.
Thanks
Stu
Stu,
The 'repainting' started in 1955, although I remember seeing some head-end cars still in orange in the mid 60's. The Walthers cars are for the Twin Cities Hiawatha. The original trains were as follows:
Morning Hi
RPO
Express/Bagg
4 Coaches
Tap Lounge
Diner
Parlor Car
Skytop Parlor
Afternoon Hi
4-5 Coaches
1-2 parlor cars
By the late 60's the trains were smaller:
3-4 Coaches
Super Dome Lounge
'Straight' Parlor - Skytop dropped as the EB Hi picked up head-end cars in Milwaukee for Chicago. and they were attached to the rear of the train. This head-end traffic previously was routed on local trains that were dropped through the years.
With heavy traffic or a Super Dome out for service, the Tap/Lounge cars will be added. Motive Power could be FP7's, Erie-Builts, or E's for the most part in the 50's. By 1969, E9's, FP7's, and FP45's would be powering the trains.
You could always add an 'upgraded' Midwest Hiawatha between Chicago-Sioux Falls using this equipment!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Milwaukee Road passenger cars began to be painted in the yellow paint scheme in the mid 1950s when the Milwaukee Road replaced the C&NW for the eastern leg of the Union Pacific's cross country trains. The UP insisted that cars used in its train match the UP scheme (as they had also insisted with the CNW), and Milw Rd soon found it easier just to repaint the entire fleet. This took a while but I have to think by 1964 there could not have been much orange scheme left, with the exception of the local service combines and such.
So the Milwaukee Road's "Arrow" to Omaha may well have run with former Hiawatha cars painted in Hiawatha paint schemes, whether orange or UP yellow.
I would suggest Jim Scribbin's book The Hiawatha Story for photos and consists, and the various Morning Sun color books for additional info.
Dave Nelson
One difference is the Olympian Hiawatha was a Chicago-Seattle train, so carried sleepers. The Hi was just a Chicago-Twin Cities daytime train, so no sleepers.
BTW the Olympian preceded the Hiawatha as a MILW train, it was later renamed the "Olympian - Hiawatha" when it was streamlined.
Excellent. Well like I said I do model 1969' CBQ, so Chinese Red is the common sight, but I like to collect other equipment too, a variety is nice sometimes. The cars are in the orange/brown earlier scheme, so they will not fit my layout for prototypical use, but that's ok, Model Railroading is suppose to be fun right ;)
Thanks for the help everyone, and i'll make sure to try and find that book for prototypical information.
Thanks again, Stu
I have a question concerning the Olympian Hiawatha consists. When this train was fully streamlined in 1949, it featured Touralux Sleepers, "Tip Top Grill" Tap Lounges and 8-6-4 "River" Series Sleepers. But what happened with these car types after the Super Domes were introduced into regular service in the beginning of 1953? I´m asking this question because on ALL photos of the Olympian Hiawatha featuring the Super Domes (1953-1961) I can´t see the Touralux Sleepers, River Series Sleepers nor Tap Lounges in the consist! On many photos, even the RPO and Baggage are missing! From what can be seen on the photos, the consists mostly seem to be like this: Baggage Dormitory, 3-4 coaches, Super Dome, Diner, 1-2 10-6 Lake Series Sleepers and the Skytop Sleeper Lounge Observation. I would like the know when exactly and why the Milwaukee dropped the Touralux Sleepers, Tap Lounges and River Sleepers (and sometimes even the RPO and Baggage) from the Olympian Hiawatha consist. Anybody of you Milwaukee fans out there who knows the answer?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
The Touralux sleepers had an interesting history. Renamed and put in Pullman service, or converted to coaches starting around 1961.
The 8-6-4 sleepers were NOT built for Olympian Hiawatha service. They were built for Pioneer Ltd service, but did run on the 15-16, as Chicago-Twin Cities sleeper service eroded quite fast in the 50's.
The Super Domes had a 28 seat 'tap' room under the dome, and replaced the tap cars quite fast(this also happened on the Twin Cities Hiawatha trains as well). So you are quite correct on your observations. #15-16 shrank in size quite fast as the Milw just could not compete with the GN & NP trains.
I would expect to see the bagg/dorm, but the RPO may have ended at Seattle(not sure). The last remenants of 15/16 were the Aberdean local out of Mpls. When the RPO contract was pulled, it also expired(1968?). I remember seeing it leaving Mpls in the evening with an RPO and 2-3 coaches - A single E9 was usually in charge of the consist.
The Touralux sleepers were always part of the Olympian Hiawatha consist, although the number of the cars varied over the years, and with traffic demand. The 8-6-4 cars weren't regularly assigned. After the Super Domes arrived, the tap-lounges were reassigned to the Columbian. Later, they went to the Arrow, to Chicago-Milwaukee trains, and to supplement the diners on the Twin Cities Hiawathas. The mail & express cars (RPO-baggage cars) were reassigned from the Olympian Hiawatha to the Columbian in 1948, and returned to the Hi in 1955. Baggage-dorm cars occasionally were withdrawn in the later years, when the dining car crews were housed in the Touralux cars.
Thanks for this interesting info! I always thought that the 8-6-4 River Series Sleepers were built for the Olympian Hiawatha as well as the 10-6 Lake Sleepers. But well, so they just appeared on the Olympian Hiawatha when there wasn´t enough demand for them on the Pioneer Limited. Alright. Also very interesting info about the Tap Lounges. But wasn´t the Buffet Lounge in the lower Super Dome level much too small with very limited seating space? Was it enough to serve meals to all the Coach passengers where a full lounge car like the "Tip Top Grill" Tap Lounge would be more appropriate? As far as I know Coach passengers (as well as Touralux passengers) were not allowed to eat in the diner on the Olympian Hiawatha, right? Or did this "law" loosen with the time? Well, it´s like I told you: I have seen photos of the Olympian Hiawatha featuring a RPO and a Baggage only in the beginning, while in later years and especially after the Super Domes introduction the train seemed to run mostly with only the Baggage Dormitory on the head end, so it really makes sense what KK Bridge said, that the Baggages and RPO´s were transferred to the Columbian. But have the Touralux cars really always been a part of the Olympian Hiawatha consist? Like I mentioned I saw many photos and even videos where it´s clearly visible that there are no Touralux cars in the consist. Only coaches ahead of the Super Dome and 10-6 sleepers behind the diner (I guess the Super Dome always ran ahead of the diner). And I have another question: Did the FM Erie Builts ever pull the Olympian Hiawatha after both the train and the engines were repainted into the 1952 scheme with black roof, orange letterboard, maroon windowstripe and orange lower body? I love the looks of the FM Erie builts very much and think they are far more beautiful than a F or E Unit, so I would love to have one FM Erie AB duo or ABA trio to pull my HO Olympian Hiawatha, but unfortunately I never saw a photo of a so painted FM Erie pulling the Olympian Hiawatha yet, which makes me think that this sadly wasn´t the case, so that the train was only pulled by F and E units since at least 1952, because I never saw a FM Erie painted in the 1952 scheme pulling the post 1952 Olympian Hiawatha. Now if only Walthers would release a Baggage Dormitory, Touralux, 10-6 Lake Sleeper and the Skytop Sleeper...still wonder why they haven´t done that yet. It´s only 4 new car types, not a big deal.
Coach and Touralux passengers weren't excluded from the full diners, but the higher menu prices as compared with the tap lounge cars kept down their numbers. The simplified orange/maroon/black paint scheme was adopted in 1950, rather than in 1952. There are photos of Erie-built locos in that paint scheme pulling th Olympian Hiawatha, including a John Gruber photo dated "about 1951" showing the train at the Everett Street depot in Milwaukee. This photo is found on p. 39 of John's book, "The Milwauke Road's Hiawathas".
Soo, did E units or F units pull the morning and afternoon twin cities hiawathas? And, what were they numbered?
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
I would venture to guess that it'd be either an E or FP probably not a F because Fs generally not have steam generators. That's if your just looking at EMD power, if it's Alco it could be a PA or FPA, others more knowledgeable on other manufacturers will advise in them.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Actually, many F-units were used in passenger service. A railroad could get say an F7A with a steam generator, but there was only room for a small water tank (IIRC 300 gallons) whereas in an B-unit you could hold several times that much water, plus the steam generator. Often, passenger F's would work in A-B sets or A-B-A sets with the steam generator / water tanks in the B unit. FP's were longer F units, that allowed more room for water tanks, so could either be used by themselves on shorter trains (i.e., you wouldn't need to have a B unit just to provide steam) or together to provide more steam for longer trains during extreme winter weather.
Anyway, I'm not a Milwaukee Road expert, but I believe the Hiawathas were dieselized with E-units (I think A-A sets, but may have been A-B) but pretty soon switched to F-units, A-B-A sets normally.
BTW Stu, running CB&Q and Milwaukee equipment together shouldn't look too wrong, even though you're modelling Nebraska. To get to and from work in St.Paul each day I drive on US Highway 61. Between the highway and the east bank of the Mississippi River are the parallel mainlines of BNSF and Canadian Pacific originally built by the Burlington Route and Milwaukee Roads. The lines run next to each other for much of about 15 miles between downtown St.Paul and Hastings MN. In fact, as I understand it, the railroads treat it as a joint double-track line rather than two separate single track lines. So running a Hi by your Burlington equipment should look fine!
wjstix Actually, many F-units were used in passenger service. A railroad could get say an F7A with a steam generator, but there was only room for a small water tank (IIRC 300 gallons) whereas in an B-unit you could hold several times that much water, plus the steam generator. Often, passenger F's would work in A-B sets or A-B-A sets with the steam generator / water tanks in the B unit. FP's were longer F units, that allowed more room for water tanks, so could either be used by themselves on shorter trains (i.e., you wouldn't need to have a B unit just to provide steam) or together to provide more steam for longer trains during extreme winter weather.
This is a case of never saying railroad X never did something then someone more knowledgeable comes along and proves you wrong.
Again though the Fs you would see would be specially equipped for passenger service, you wouldn't see a bunch of Fs straight off a manifest freight running on the lead of a premier streamliner, especially in Nebraska. They would be F's equipped with steam generators, and or steam lines.