Does anyone have any info they can share on fouling point markers and those railroads that used them? Photos would be great if you had any. I'm trying to find out some more info so I can work them into my layout. So far, I have found the following information."The Santa Fe used Orange paint on the tie at the point where the railsdiverging from the frog were 8 ft-3.5 inches apart. This info comes fromSanta Fe System Standards Vol. One, published by Kachina Press."I don't have this book. Is there anyone that has it that could summarize this section if there is any more detail listed? I'm wondering did they paint the end of the tie, the whole tie, the top of the tie? I also found this photo. This is a newer UP fouling point marker in use in the yard at Sparks, NV. Any additional info about any fouling point markers you have would be awesome. If you have them on your layout, I'd like to hear about that too.
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In my experience fouling point markers are relatively rare. In most places if they were there, they were just a tie end painted a light color.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have seen dabs of yellow or orange paint on the sides of the rail to mark what I assumed to be the fouling point, and I know some model railroaders who have used that same system to mark the fouling points on their sidings.
I also recall seeing pictures of metal signs with F.P. on them, which I have to assume stands for fouling point. What I do not know is if that marked the fouling point as we model railroaders would be concerned -- sideswiping -- or fouling the electrical circuits for signals, crossing gates, CTC, and the like.
Dave Nelson
The next time I'm at work I'll see if I can snap a pic. We paint the entire tie and the web of the rail, bright yellow to mark the clearance points.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
dknelsonI have seen dabs of yellow or orange paint on the sides of the rail to mark what I assumed to be the fouling point, and I know some model railroaders who have used that same system to mark the fouling points on their sidings. I also recall seeing pictures of metal signs with F.P. on them, which I have to assume stands for fouling point. What I do not know is if that marked the fouling point as we model railroaders would be concerned -- sideswiping -- or fouling the electrical circuits for signals, crossing gates, CTC, and the like. Dave Nelson
If the track has insulated joints, the fouling point sign must be placed at the IJs, at least, that's what is instructed in the standards of the Class 1s I know. On tracks without a track circuit it can be placed at the clearance point.
RWM
Hello "bazonkers,"It's a matter of point of view, I guess, but the Santa Fe and most other roads I know about called them "clearance markers."
The clearance marker sheet in the AT&SF system standards book shows both a marker and a sign, the marker being the orange paint you referred to in your post. The the top of the outer end of the tie and the outside of the rail for an equivalent width were painted bright orange. There were three criteria for clearance marker location: unbonded (un-signalled) territory, bonded (signalled) territory, and with a derail in bonded or unbonded territory.
In unbonded territory the marker was on the first ties past a point where the separation between the diverging rails reached 8'-3-1/2", on both the main track and the siding, but only on the side between the two tracks.
In bonded territory the markers were placed on the first ties past the insulated rail joint farthest from the frog.
With a derail in bonded or unbonded territory, the markers were placed on the first ties past the derail (proceeding from the frog). All exposed surfaces of the derail were also painted bright orange.
The sign was to be used in addition to the markers with the approval of the grand division general manager. It was placed on the field side of the siding, 7'-6" from the nearest rail, at the clearance point conforming to the marker.
The sign was a 2" x 6" post standing 5 feet high measured from the top of the nearest rail, with the wide side perpendicular to the rail. On the side facing away from the frog a white panel was painted extending two feet down from the top (later replaced by an overlay sign panel consisting of a steel plate with a plastic film sign applied). On the white background the word "CLEARANCE" was spelled in 3" black sans-serif letters, starting with the "C" at the top.
So long,
Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
What are these "fouling points" and "clearance points" you people speak of.
The fouling point or clearance point is where the cars on a track have to be shoved past to avoid being hit by other trains.
Those newer clearance point markers might be more prevalent soon, due to newer FRA regs. Paint on the rail and ties seems to disappear under snow.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Thanks for the great information! This all helps. Some of my spurs are shorter and I wanted to put a marker of somekind for my own benefit so I know how close I can park a car before I create a problem for the adjacent track. I can definitely work with this info.
Bazonkers, the new FRA regulations state something to this effect:
If the clearance point is not marked, it is the responsibility of whoever is making the move to measure and find the clearance point. Generally this can be done by standing at the edge of the ties, extending one arm towards the adjancent track and making sure you can not touch the other car. Once that position is found, one more car length is required.
If the clearance point is marked, you can use that point as long as it safely protects the equipment on that track and adjacent tracks.
There are certain rules and instances where you can leave tracks fouling an adjance track, such as if the car is fouling the switch and the switch is left lined for that tracks movement.
The clearance markers at my place of employment are paint on the ties and on the web of the rail. Color is "Safety Orange".
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For our purposes in modeling, This is usually the point where an uncoupling magnet will be placed. Various methods of marking the magnet/ foul point have been mentioned.
It may be nec to set the magnet further down the siding than actually needed to clear the foul point for proper coupling.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
SperandeoHello "bazonkers,"It's a matter of point of view, I guess, but the Santa Fe and most other roads I know about called them "clearance markers." The clearance marker sheet in the AT&SF system standards book shows both a marker and a sign, the marker being the orange paint you referred to in your post. The the top of the outer end of the tie and the outside of the rail for an equivalent width were painted bright orange. There were three criteria for clearance marker location: unbonded (un-signalled) territory, bonded (signalled) territory, and with a derail in bonded or unbonded territory. In unbonded territory the marker was on the first ties past a point where the separation between the diverging rails reached 8'-3-1/2", on both the main track and the siding, but only on the side between the two tracks. In bonded territory the markers were placed on the first ties past the insulated rail joint farthest from the frog. With a derail in bonded or unbonded territory, the markers were placed on the first ties past the derail (proceeding from the frog). All exposed surfaces of the derail were also painted bright orange. The sign was to be used in addition to the markers with the approval of the grand division general manager. It was placed on the field side of the siding, 7'-6" from the nearest rail, at the clearance point conforming to the marker. The sign was a 2" x 6" post standing 5 feet high measured from the top of the nearest rail, with the wide side perpendicular to the rail. On the side facing away from the frog a white panel was painted extending two feet down from the top (later replaced by an overlay sign panel consisting of a steel plate with a plastic film sign applied). On the white background the word "CLEARANCE" was spelled in 3" black sans-serif letters, starting with the "C" at the top. So long, Andy
Was the 8' 3.5" fouling point comon across the USA (maybe as an ARA or AAR standard) or was it RR specific please?
In the UK or FP is where the adjacent rails are 6' apart... which I always reckon is about the height of an average European... Americans aren't that much taller so would reckon that the 8' and a bit would be an American laying down with his arm straight above his head... between the appropriate rails
Our fouling points will be orange spray paint on the tie's where the foul point is.One of our new rules is where we do the "check" ( standing on the end of the tie and extending your arm to see if you can touch the car) even if the car is not in reach we are to shove it 50 foot further down the track.Obviously cant do that if its tight at both ends so my guess will be take the cars close to foul and flip them to another track.
We do have signs in sidings that are yellow reflective with black letters with FP on them.I think we were debating the plastic cones,but those seem to get knocked off easily and are then gone.We had them in Galesburg for a bit then just went to spray painting the entire tie and sides of the rail.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
Sperandeo Hello "bazonkers,"It's a matter of point of view, I guess, but the Santa Fe and most other roads I know about called them "clearance markers." The clearance marker sheet in the AT&SF system standards book shows both a marker and a sign, the marker being the orange paint you referred to in your post. The the top of the outer end of the tie and the outside of the rail for an equivalent width were painted bright orange. There were three criteria for clearance marker location: unbonded (un-signalled) territory, bonded (signalled) territory, and with a derail in bonded or unbonded territory. In unbonded territory the marker was on the first ties past a point where the separation between the diverging rails reached 8'-3-1/2", on both the main track and the siding, but only on the side between the two tracks. In bonded territory the markers were placed on the first ties past the insulated rail joint farthest from the frog. With a derail in bonded or unbonded territory, the markers were placed on the first ties past the derail (proceeding from the frog). All exposed surfaces of the derail were also painted bright orange. The sign was to be used in addition to the markers with the approval of the grand division general manager. It was placed on the field side of the siding, 7'-6" from the nearest rail, at the clearance point conforming to the marker. The sign was a 2" x 6" post standing 5 feet high measured from the top of the nearest rail, with the wide side perpendicular to the rail. On the side facing away from the frog a white panel was painted extending two feet down from the top (later replaced by an overlay sign panel consisting of a steel plate with a plastic film sign applied). On the white background the word "CLEARANCE" was spelled in 3" black sans-serif letters, starting with the "C" at the top. So long, Andy
I ask a old line PRR engineer about the fouling point since I thought we was a tad to close..His answer:Sonny,as long as we have at least one car length between us and the end of the switch we are good unless you want to stop at the marker-if we do that the boys back there in the cabin ain't going to like it since the cabin and 1/2 of a car would be stopped on the main.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
When setting out cars I've always took the advice of a old head " If you feel your so close that you need to do that tie and arm crap, then just shove back another car or so."
Like someone said in another reply if it's so tight that you can't clear , set it over to another track after talking to the yardmaster or on the road take it back with you. Remember if someone hit's it, YOU set it there.
How are fouling points of CSX lines in Florida marked this times? I'm building a layout with that theme and that would be a nice detail to add.
Reinhard
System wide CSX uses the "Yellow Tie" program. The entire tie and web of the rail are painted bright yellow to mark clearance points. Sometimes reflectors or surveying flags are added as well.
nbrodar System wide CSX uses the "Yellow Tie" program. The entire tie and web of the rail are painted bright yellow to mark clearance points. Sometimes reflectors or surveying flags are added as well.Nick
Thank you. That is easy to do
esprrfan When setting out cars I've always took the advice of a old head " If you feel your so close that you need to do that tie and arm crap, then just shove back another car or so." Like someone said in another reply if it's so tight that you can't clear , set it over to another track after talking to the yardmaster or on the road take it back with you. Remember if someone hit's it, YOU set it there.
I recall one time on the Chessie/C&O we did a illegal "squeeze by" run around because we decided to go for a early quit and didn't want to go another 14 miles to a longer run around.
How close?
About 12" between the engine and the ends of the train as it pass the switch..
I never heard of the arm and tie method.We figured 1 long car or 2 short cars from the end of the switch was good enough for clearance.
BRAKIEI never heard of the arm and tie method.
I never heard of the arm and tie method.
Until tie markings became commonplace, we used this method all the time. Though we would stand with one foot against the adjacent rail and hold the arm straight out. They even taught it at the training school.
nbrodar BRAKIE I never heard of the arm and tie method. Until tie markings became commonplace, we used this method all the time. Though we would stand with one foot against the adjacent rail and hold the arm straight out. They even taught it at the training school. Nick
BRAKIE I never heard of the arm and tie method.
Only classes I took was for rules,signal familiarizing and safety...After passing the written test I started my "student brakeman" training.
I know. I know. When boxcars were made of wood and men were made of steel.
Personally, I would have rather done it that way. Instead of 3 weeks of class, and 14 weeks of OJT. Then, being told I was a conductor.
.
Dave-the-TrainSperandeoAndy Was the 8' 3.5" fouling point comon across the USA (maybe as an ARA or AAR standard) or was it RR specific please? In the UK or FP is where the adjacent rails are 6' apart... which I always reckon is about the height of an average European... Americans aren't that much taller so would reckon that the 8' and a bit would be an American laying down with his arm straight above his head... between the appropriate rails
SperandeoAndy
8'-3.5" + 4'-8.5" = 13'-0 which at one time seemed to have been a common minimum for track centers. North American equipment tends to be somewhere between 10' and 11' wide including handrails and grabirons so 13' gives a bit of safety space between trains on adjacent tracks. You would want to keep the same safety margin at a fouling point. Possibly the narrow gauge railroads might have different standards - I'll leave that for those who might know.
The UK has a very restricted loading gauge forcing much narrower locomotives and rolling stock, which is why their track centers can be considerably closer.
John