Turntable vs. Wye

[rrcrazy]

I am modeling a short line (Manistee and Northeastern) in Northern Michigan. They started in the early 1900's. I know they had a wye at the end of the line for turning locomotives. However, space contraints on my part got me to thinking if a turntable and a passing track would be prototypical for turning locos at the end of a short line. What type of situation would a wye be used over a turntable and vice versa?

Thanks!

Dan

[dknelson]

I have seen photos of situations where a turntable was used exactly in the situation you discuss. The thing about turntables is that they tended to be fussy, break down, need to be fixed, had problems in winter, etc etc. On the other hand, to build a wye meant buying some real estate and it too needed to be plowed in winter.
The CNW had all sorts of problems with their center bearing turntables, first because the bearings wore out but second because as they got bigger and bigger power the balance center kept shifting and it became harder to "armstrong" the table around.
If you have the $$$ i urge you to take a look at the two books the Chicago & North Western Historical Society has published about steam era facilities. Some of them were in the territory you model. It is full of great photos, and some plans.
Interestingly,, railroads tended to recyle old turntables and move them to areas suited to the size.
Dave Nelson

[orsonroy]

Turntables take up less space than a wye, wyes cost less and are simpler to maintain. Generally, it's a matter of the overall financial situation and space considerations the railroad had to deal with.

If you don't have the room for a wye, go with a turntable. Either way you decide to go, you'll be correct!

[Anonymous]

Here is an interesting shot of a roundhouse without a turntable. You would think that it would have been simpler to have a turntable than all those switches... Just goes to show there is indeed a prototype for (almost [;)]) everything...

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_77/d_08123.gif

Andrew

[cwclark]

I have always had a turntable on the last three of four layouts i have built in the past...But now i have my dream layout room and since i model modern day railroads this time i'm going with a "wye" for three reasons: 1.I'm doing the "wye" this time because i live near the UP Strang yard in La Porte, Texas and they have a "wye" with a diesel service next to it...This yard..I plan to model...2. roundhouses are becoming a thing of the past for modern day railroads, and 3. you can turn an entire train around on a "wye" not just the engine....[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cwclark

you can turn an entire train around on a "wye" not just the engine....[:)]

you set it up right and you can turn an entire train with a turntable too.

also don't forget that Real railroads use loops as well to turn a train. Roundhouses aren't a thing of the past, they've just been redesigned to engine sheds now and use Transfer tables to access the various stalls.

Jay.

[Anonymous]

Turntable vs. wye consideration often turned (sorry about the pun) on how much real estate was available, and at what cost to the railroad, when construction was done. With a wye, the limit on what amount of equipment can be turned at one time depends on the shortest of the 3 "tail" tracks of the wye. The shortest can be just one loco length, but the sky can be the limit (e.g., at a junction).

The passing-track-and-turntable means of turning locos at the end of a line seems to have been pretty common in the good old days. A turntable doesn't necesarily mean a roundhouse is going to be nearby. On Milwaukee Road's Fond du Lac branch, there were turntables at each end. There was a roundhouse at the distant (Fond du Lac) end, but just an Armstrong turntable and passing track at the Iron Ridge end (which connected with the main line).

The turntables at both ends were removed during or before the diesel era. After the turntable was removed at Fond du Lac, the roundhouse remained in service. Engines reached it via turnouts where the turntable used to be located.

--John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NTDN

also don't forget that Real railroads use loops as well to turn a train.

Jay.

The roundhouse that used to stand where the Toronto SkyDome is now had a so-called "ballon track" that ran out around the roundhouse and back for turning entire passenger trains that would leave from Union Station.

EDIT - You can see it here in this 1930s postcard: http://indexes.tpl.toronto.on.ca/vexhibit/193-_birds-eye_view_of_john_st_roundhouse_royal_york_hotel_postcard.html

Andrew

[BR60103]

A wye could be put in where a branch line met the main line. Two of the tracks would already exist, and the third track would give operational flexibility. The middle of the wye could be used for a small yard or an enginehouse. It would probably be prototypical to ahve a wye at one end and a turntable at the other.

[AntonioFP45]

Considering your "theme" and time period, a turntable would be appropriate and quite practical on your railroad.

It's understandable that that you want to be prototypical, so you can easily justify the turntable as it is indeed efficient as far as the amount of land required. This scenario does make it realistic.

But remember, It is your railroad and you're the boss! [:)]

[GerFust]

I also recently saw a wye in rural New York while riding Amtrak. It lead to a yard with numerous tracks off the ladder. Couldn't see what industry, though. That would be an interesting feature to model.

-Jer

[CP5415]

Hey Andrew! That roundhouse that "used" to be there still stands. The roundhouse in your picture is CPR's John Street roundhouse. Steamwhistle Brewery is a tenant in it.
The roundhouse that has been removed is CN's Spadina Roundhouse & it also had a track that looped around the back of the roundhouse.
I have a photo I obtained off of someone for printing a bunch of photo's off of my computer for him that has an amazing view of both roundhouses, the yards & Union Station in Toronto. circa approximately 1965.

Gordon

By the way, I've been fortunate enough to be able to have a wye on my layout. It's not a large or a long one, it'll only turn 2 locomotives at a time but for me, it works.

[Anonymous]

Gordon...

Thanks for the correction! Yes, the Steamwhistle brewery has taken over, but will give tours - although they highlight the beer making I think. Oh well, a good opportunity to combine two interests that many (most? [;)]) of us here have...

Andrew

[CP5415]

Andrew

Well, they haven't taken over the entire roundhouse. Only about a 1/3 of it.
There's still locomotives, a turntable & rollingstock still nestled inside several stalls waiting for the city to get their act together to get a RR Museum in there.

Gordon

[Anonymous]

The Ft. Smith and Western also had a large engine house without a turntable.

[Anonymous]

Concerning Turntables, how were they moved (they are quite large and cutting them into pieces for transport doesn't sound like a good idea) and how was it decided whether and where to move them. Were they sold to other roads that were running smaller equipment? Bob

[sparkingbolt]

When SP X4449 or UP Challenger has come to Bend, Oregon from Portland, they turn the whole train around on a wye to send it back home. 'Course that would be a mighty big wye on our model railroads.

I have a picture of the old 5 stall round house (long gone) in Coos Bay Oregon, with the 60' turntable replaced by switches,but only into the middle 3 of its stalls. In an earlier map of the same area, circa 1915, it shows that the turntable, round house, machine shop and 2 track car shop, a good sized depot, along with smaller rr structures were all inside the large wye. (I'd love to have the space to model that!) The wye however was not just a turning point. Each leg went out of town to other towns along the respective directions. Just a couple observations. Dan

[randybc2003]

Re rt2907's Q:
I too would like to know the answer to this. The local RR Historical Scociety has purchased an old 90'+ turntable from the UP and they are going to have to move it too. Will watch this space for any response.
randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CP5415

Andrew

Well, they haven't taken over the entire roundhouse. Only about a 1/3 of it.
There's still locomotives, a turntable & rollingstock still nestled inside several stalls waiting for the city to get their act together to get a RR Museum in there.

Gordon

Gordon...

Shame on me for not checking in sooner... That's good news (I think). I am not entirely sure that I trust the city to do the right thing, but at least it's not past the point of no return...

Interestingly, I saw a presentation on railways in Bolivia (South America) the other night. There are dozens, if not hundreds, or steam locos sitting around in the deserts and jungles there because there is no market for scrap metal in the country. They do not have a single mill, and it is too expensive to export (they are a landlocked country, and so must deal with Argentina, Chile, or Brazil to "get out" - and they do not get along with any of them right now...).

It is a real shame that so much Canadian steam met the torch...

Andrew


Andrew

[CP5415]

It is a real shame that so much Canadian steam met the torch...

Andrew


Yes it is Andrew.
Fortunately enough there was several that were saved.
I've had the pleasure of visiting the Museum in Ottawa that houses 3101 & a couple of others.
It was interesting that I was able to climb through the cabs of both the Mountain & the Hudson right next to it.

Gordon

[Anonymous]

Turntables are still in use today, the Conway Yard near Pittsburgh, PA (as of a couple years ago) has an operational turntable. Formerly Conrail now NS the yard also has the last double hump classification yards in the Eastern US. Too bad it would take about a city block to model it in HO!

Jay

[AltonFan]

Actually, some shortlines, even in the steam era, didn't bother with any turning facilities. The engine pulled out going forward, and returned in reverse. Frequently, the tenders were of the "clear-view" configuration, to improve visibility when running in reverse.

I've often noticed that in modern times, railroads typically MU diesels so that the units at the ends of the lash-up are facing in opposite directions, so that turning the locomotive is simply a matter of the engineer walking from one unit to another.

[jguess733]

The Fort Worth and Western uses both. They have a turntable in Grapvine for turning their steam engine, and another one at the stockyards station in downtown Fort Worth. The wye is at their 8th Ave. yard (ex Frisco yard) This way they can get their excursion train turned around no matter which direction it has come from.

[Junctionfan]

Go for the turntable. They are the most practical for space and they were a common site in that era. I model modern but I plan to use a turn table for my diesel shop just because of the amount of engines will need "maintainance". Wyes are always space efficent especially if you have large locomotives to turn that require a fair size radius. With the turntable even a DDA40X can be turned with ease.

[twhite]

Just a thought, but depending on what your minimum radius is, you can also use a balloon track. I grew up near Truckee, CA on the SP Donner Pass line, and there was a balloon track in Truckee to turn the helpers between Truckee and Donner Pass. there was also a balloon track on the west side of the summit near Emigrant Gap used to turn helpers coming up from Colfax. Both are still in use today.

[Anonymous]

Hey Guys, The Waynesburg & Washington R.R. had a Wye tressle that tied in it's main line to leased track of the B&O in Washington PA until they got their turntable built. On the Waynesburg end they just ran backwards until the turntable was built. The W &W R.R. was in service from 1877 to 1933 when it ceased steam service.