Critique a fairly large N scale layout

[kevinihrke]

My son and I are just planning a model railroad layout in N-scale. We have designed a track plan but I do not have software to draw the plan on my computer, it is drawn on grid paper fairly accurately. I have never asked a question on a forum before so I am pretty much a rookie. We did build one other layout first but have since moved to a new home and dismantled that layout. I was wondering if I could mail a copy of my plans to some experienced modelers so they could critique the plans. I would send a postage paid envelope so you could return the plans with comments and suggestions. The room is 15' x 15' with a wing that is 4' long. We want to run an excursion passenger train, a coal train, an Iron ore train and a freight train. There are three yards, one with a sea port where all of these commodities would be shipped to. We may have tried to put too much in the plan and I am not sensitive about your feedback so please be frank!
Thanks for your help in advance!
P.S I hope this allowed to share addresses, my e-mail address is [e-mail], e-mail me with your address and I will send out the plans (if I get too many requests I will respond to your e-mail to let you know).

[SpaceMouse]

Hi,

And welcome to the forum. It would be all around better to have the plan posted for all to see. There will be various differing opnions (mine and wrong ones) and you really need to pick between them. We can pretty much walk you through getting them posted for all to see so just bare with us.

The first thing you need to do is digitize the plan. This can be done at any copy shop. Just take your plan in and have it scanned and saved as a .jpg file. When you have it loaded on your computer, we'll walk you though getting it posted. Then just sit back and watch the gears turn.

[leighant]

See my plan for an N scale "Island Seaport" layout in an 11 x 12' space. It calls for 2 full-length passenger trains, 2 inbound and 2 outbound merchandise trains, grain, sulphur and banana extras.

http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/ael.jpg

An explanation and photos of prototype scenes are at www.trainboard.com under Model Railroading/ Layout Design forum.

[chateauricher]

Leighant,

Your plan looks quite good. You have a lot of elements that I wouldn't mind having myself.

However, I would like to know how you plan to deal with a couple issues I noticed.

In the upper-left corner (where the cemetary and sulfer plant are); how deep is that corner from the edge of your layout ? It looks like it is close to 4 or 5 feet. I know my arms aren't long enough to reach that far. You'll want to keep your layout about 30" deep at most so you can access all parts (unless you include a pop-up).

In the lower part of your layout, how do you plan to access the closet, flat art storage cabinet and the entry door ? Will you use a duck-under ? Or have you planned on a removeable section there ?

If you have already addressed these issues, great. Its just that your solutions are not readily visible on your plans.

QUOTE: An explanation and photos of prototype scenes are at www.trainboard.com under Model Railroading/ Layout Design forum.

I don't see "layout design" anywhere under "model railroading".[%-)][%-)][%-)] Could you provide a direct link to it ?

[roadrat]

If your looking for software to do your layout on goto
www.atlasrr.com
and download RTS its freeware track planing software
its good for HO and N scale,
Its not the best track planning software but the price is right,(free)
and once you've planned out your track you can e-mail it around
to any one else with RTS and get some tips.


bill

[SpaceMouse]

Hi Everyone,

Kevin got the scan, but they did in .pdf. Here's a link to the file. It is just over 1 mb. Use the zoom tool to read the notes. It is a good sized layout and well thought out.

http:www.vitaconnect.com/photos/trainlayout.pdf

[SpaceMouse]

The first question I have is did you use some sort of template for the turnouts?

I mean will the layout work out as you have drawn it?

IT might be worth your while to do a small section with the Atlas program above before you start building , say the penninsula with the turntable, just to make sure. I'd hate to see you build the benchwork that size only to find out that your plan doesn't fit.

If you are uncomfortable with computers, you can buy templates of the various parts and trace them. It is still easy to fudge--the computer (and the real track) won't let you.

[ukguy]

Kevin, Chip and anyone else,

I have taken Kevins plan and converted it to JPG format and uploaded it onto my website so you all can have easy access to it. click below for smaller version.



for the larger version (560k) click the link below.

http://www.railimages.com/albums/karlallison/aio.jpg
You may need to 'right-click' on the image and save it to your PC so that you can zoom in to read the notes.

I hope this helps you all out.

That sure is a lot of track to ballast Kevin ![:D]

But man !!! you certainly wouldnt get bored of it in too much of a hurry. Great work Kevin&son.

Have fun & be safe
Karl.

[TrainFreak409]

Wow, that's a big layout. I hope to be building a smaller 10 x 14 soon.

Good luck!

[jhugart]

If you are just starting out, consider working on some small section first, to get experience in scenery, wiring, laying track, etc. It is easy to plan for the moon and get stuck with the sheer scale of things.

[cuyama]

Kevin and all,

Sadly, it's not likely that this ambitious design will fit as drawn. There does not appear to be enough space for turnouts ... as drawn, some of the points would overlap. In other cases, the turnouts seem to diverge unrealistically sharply.

In a few areas, the track-to-track spacing does not appear adequate. The tracks also are shown perilously close to the benchwork edge and if a more realistic space were allowed to the edge of the benchwork, the aisles would shrink to less than 18".

There are also some subtle problems, such as "kinks" where straight and curved track segments join. These have the effect of allowing you to squeeze in more track than would actually fit.

It does not appear that this sketch was drawn with templates. I would strongly suggest that you redraw a complex section with templates to get a realistic view of what can actually fit. My suspicion is that it would be a lot less than in the current sketch.

To my eye, you have ten pounds of sugar and a five-pound sack. Sorry to be blunt about it, but facing a little reality now will save frustration later.

regards,

Byron
http://www.modelrail.us

[SpaceMouse]

Byron,

I was being diplomatic with the way I approached it, but I concur.

[kevinihrke]

Actually I put all of the track together on the floor and then traced it to the floor and I used masking tape to show where the track ran, I used blue masking tape to show where roads would go and I placed the structures on the floor and traced where they fit. My ability to trace what was on the floor accurately to my grid paper was something else, therefore, some of the "kinks" and close tracks and turnout spaces are not completely accurate. Also I drew a grid on the floor (1 foot by one foot) before laying the track on the floor. I left easments for every curve and the tightest curve is the inner curve of the reversing loop in the main yard in the penisula (most of the curves are 16" to 22" and I used a yard stick with holes drill into it to make the curves). The track is close to the edge of the layout and I was thinking in those areas I would extend masonite or plexiglass slightly higher than the edge of the layout to act as a "guardrail" (I don't know if this is a good idea or not?). I know this is an ambitious plan but I will have help from a brother and my father also and I know going in that this will take a long time to finish. Following are a few questions I have:
1) does it appear the yards will function well to build trains etc?
2) should I try to thin some of the stuff out of this plan and try to build a second level and how do I get the two levels to connect without having a really steep grade?
3) does the the railroad make sense, what I mean by this is, does it look like the plan will operate somewhat like a real rail railroad. Will I be able to make trains and deliver their cargo to logical places?
4) Should I scrap the plans altogether and start over?
5) Is the bench work plan OK and should I just redo the track plans or scrap the benchwork plan too?
6) The height of the layout is between 50" and 58", does that sound like a reasonable height?
Lastly, thank you for all of the suggestions so far! I can handle negative critiques, I don't have sensitive feelings, I would rather be offended than start this and have to tear it apart because it functionally has major flaws. I do have a Kato template and will try to draw the two penisula's using the template, my problem with the template is that it does not seem to be accurate. I drew areas with the template and then when I laid the track on the floor the track was smaller than the template so there was actually a lot more room for track and turnouts, is there a better template? When I say I laid the track, I actually used track connectors and checked to make sure the track was aligned before tracing it to the floor.
I also tried RTS but I found it very difficult to use!

[SpaceMouse]

If you are satisfied that the track will fit as drawn, then I see no reason to start over. You obviously have had some experieince with model railroading and you have created a layout that is yard intensive. Easily you have more space devoted to yards than you do industries, so when you ask the question will it act like a real railroad, I have to ask how you see it working.

As to whether the yards will work, frankly, when I look tat the drawing my eyes go buggy. It is hard to tell what you intend for AD tracks, yard leads, crossovers, caboose tracs etc. One of the cool things about the RR programs other thatn Atlas' is that you can run simulated trains over them and see how they work.

Finally, IU don't see anything that I would label as a staging area. You have lots of yards and tracks, but it seems like a closed system. Everything you get comes fromt the area, fuel raw materials, etc. and is sold to that same closed area. There is no contact with the outside world as I see it.

All these comments are leading up to the grand question of how do you see yourself running this layout/ empire?

[leighant]

Sorry I didn't give clear directions for N scale "Island Seaport".

http://www.trainboard.com/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/33/t/000725.html

The cemetery and residential neighborhood behind it would be a pop-up, one I would hope it rarely had to use. I drew outline of liftout but did not label it. I avoided turnouts as much as possible way back in that corner, except for the sulphur dock. The Demara Yard track TAILS only extend into not esily reached area. Anyway, I figured I just HAD to have the wye.

The entire 7 foot long causeway would be removed whenever layout not operating. No spurs on it, no trains normally left on it, and drawbridge would be lowered to stabilize it when removed. Piece would be 7' long by 14" inches. I am in process of building a full-size cardboard mockup of a foot and a half of the causeway module before start the actual layout section. Expect it to be the first piece built.

[ericboone]

You may not like having only 2 ft wide aisles. You do have a lot of track in a small space and if you have multiple people running trains simultaneoulsy, they will not be able to get around each other. If people are struggling to get around each other, it detracts from the enjoyment of operating trains.

You may want to reconsider the duck under. With N scale, you can get away with tighter radius and return loops would not be big space eaters. You will appreciate having easy access to the layout. Otherwise, you could put in a lift bridge like the one described for an N scale modular layout as described on page 52 in the August issue of MR.

Staging yards for operations would be nice to have. Even if you just want to watch trains run around, staging is a convenient place to store full trains while another is running around the layout.

Otherwise, even with no changes, it looks like you have a nice plan that you will enjoy building.