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Like A Rock.... not!

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Like A Rock.... not!
Posted by jacon12 on Monday, June 20, 2005 11:35 AM
While in the train room this morning I picked up a stray piece of 2 inch extruded foam and gave a try at carving something that faintly resembled a rock. I shaped it with a long razor knife blace and then roughed it up with a wire brush. I rumaged around and found an old can of brown paint and gave it a coat. Now it looks sorta like what I see across the back fence in the cow pasture, except those are flatter.

I know the first thing is to get the 'right' color paint, right being the color in my model area, the Appalacians in the southeast corner of the U.S., and that seems to be mostly tones of grey.
But, I'm wondering... is it possible to do diluted washes on extruded foam? If you modeled in foam how did you do rocks? Am I roughing it up correctly? I know I need to had some type ground cover to it while it is wet, most rocks in that area have a healty covering of trees and things growing all over them.
Thanks,
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by ARTHILL on Monday, June 20, 2005 12:49 PM
Jeael,
I am just starting to experment with foam. I have scratched with an Xato vertically and cut horizontilly and painted with artist acrylic washes. The first experment looked fair. I have hopes for success. Am now waiting for a foam knife so I can carve the basic shape of a floor to ceiling cliff. The more careless I was the better the results. I did try spray painting with solvent paint. It ate at the foam and the left a result that looked like a mud cliff. I may use that a little latter after I leave the desert scenes. As you practice, please share what you have learned. I think after we survive the learning curve there is good scenery detail here.

ART
If you think you have it right, your standards are too low. my photos http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ARTHILL/ Art
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Posted by jacon12 on Monday, June 20, 2005 12:58 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ARTHILL

Jeael,
I am just starting to experment with foam. I have scratched with an Xato vertically and cut horizontilly and painted with artist acrylic washes. The first experment looked fair. I have hopes for success. Am now waiting for a foam knife so I can carve the basic shape of a floor to ceiling cliff. The more careless I was the better the results. I did try spray painting with solvent paint. It ate at the foam and the left a result that looked like a mud cliff. I may use that a little latter after I leave the desert scenes. As you practice, please share what you have learned. I think after we survive the learning curve there is good scenery detail here.

ART
Oppps! Art, I forgot to check the can to see if it was foam friendly! It'll probably turn into a pile of mush. Oh well, then I can say from experience what happens! I'm still in the tracklaying phase and probably will be for a while as I changed the plans a little, but I know I'll be experimenting with making rocks and stuff out of foam so if I run across anything good I'll pass it along and you do the same!
Jarrel
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 20, 2005 1:00 PM
I'm just starting out myself, and what I'm trying is basic forms in foam and then covering them in plaster covered towels, kind of like paper mache (SP) when I was a kid. thne there is no real question about colour washes. After I try I'll post a picture if I succeed :)
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Posted by rayhippard on Monday, June 20, 2005 1:11 PM
Action1nonly,

Welcome to the forum. I think you will be pleased with all the heplfull info you can get here. Just ask jacon12. No question too trivial. Also later you can learn to search the archives for some of your questions. But in the mean time, enjoy and have fun. What
scale / gauge are you modeling ?

Ray ------ Great Northern fan.
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Posted by ARTHILL on Monday, June 20, 2005 1:22 PM
Jarrell
There I got your name right. The artist acrylics worked great. The spray can did not disolve the whole thing, but did produce in interesting texture. I sprayed the first coat rather light. It was a Krylon paint I used for a plastic bridge. It was rather random and I hope I can find a place to use it because it looked differnt.
If you think you have it right, your standards are too low. my photos http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ARTHILL/ Art
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Posted by selector on Monday, June 20, 2005 1:38 PM
Jarrell, you could first paint the carved foam a very light gray, or even white, if you wanted a limestone look. Then, yes, you would commence a series of darker, rayer, some browner washes and see as you go. Be sure to allow each coat to dry thoroughly so that you are not working at odds with what you want to achieve by adding unneeded tinting.

For another experiment, try slicing strips of another piece and then work at making a stratified look, like slate ledges. Then paint a light grey, and try different washes to see how it all looks. The last couple of washes would probably best be diluted India Ink to enhance shadow effect.
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Posted by jacon12 on Monday, June 20, 2005 1:56 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rayhippard

Action1nonly,

Welcome to the forum. I think you will be pleased with all the heplfull info you can get here. Just ask jacon12. No question too trivial. Also later you can learn to search the archives for some of your questions. But in the mean time, enjoy and have fun. What
scale / gauge are you modeling ?

Ray ------ Great Northern fan.

Ray is correct Action1nonly, I consider NO question too trivial. Searching the archives is great and I do it often, but I've also found that a lot of things come up when you ask a question directly that you may have not thought of, PLUS the help that other new people get as they follow a conversation from the sidelines, as I often do.
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 20, 2005 2:02 PM
Rayhippard and Jarrell

Thanks for the welcome, I'm currently useing HO scale stuff I gathered off e-bay, trying to do stuff as cheaply as possible. I loved my TYCO train when I was a kid, and my son seems to love trains so I thought it was something him and I could do together. Looking forwad to reading some of the stuff on here before I have to go back to school in September and immerse myself in research once again. I'm sure these forums will be of great help.

Cheers,
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Posted by jacon12 on Monday, June 20, 2005 2:02 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Jarrell, you could first paint the carved foam a very light gray, or even white, if you wanted a limestone look. Then, yes, you would commence a series of darker, rayer, some browner washes and see as you go. Be sure to allow each coat to dry thoroughly so that you are not working at odds with what you want to achieve by adding unneeded tinting.

For another experiment, try slicing strips of another piece and then work at making a stratified look, like slate ledges. Then paint a light grey, and try different washes to see how it all looks. The last couple of washes would probably best be diluted India Ink to enhance shadow effect.

Crandell, I assume any cheap latex acrylic paint will do for foam. Thanks for the tips!
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by oleirish on Monday, June 20, 2005 5:30 PM
Jarrell;looks ok ! next time try a wood rasp to take chunks out of you foam,then paint,when still a little wet sprinkle a little cat litter on, then stick some lichen on it, stand back and take a look you would be supprised what you see![^]

JIM
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Posted by ARTHILL on Monday, June 20, 2005 8:01 PM
Oleirish reminds us that detail of suggestion is useful. Tear chunks out with vertical strokes. 1/4 to 1/2 inch chunks. Keep them random. Don't clean out the mess. It makes nice random Talus. Then go back with a knife and slice horizontal slices. Experment with patterns as different areas have different strata lines. If you like volcanic areas some of the horizotal strata lines are tipped and even bend up to vertical. As you paint keep different strata areas different colors. Be too bold at first, not too timid. I started my first pike in 9th grade. I learned a lot by mistakes. As Thomas Edison said after years of not making an electic bulb, "I am not a failer, I now know 10,000 things that won't work.
Good Luck and had FUN

Art
If you think you have it right, your standards are too low. my photos http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ARTHILL/ Art
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Posted by jacon12 on Monday, June 20, 2005 9:05 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

Jarrell;looks ok ! next time try a wood rasp to take chunks out of you foam,then paint,when still a little wet sprinkle a little cat litter on, then stick some lichen on it, stand back and take a look you would be supprised what you see![^]

JIM

Cat litter! That's a new one for me. I'll try it and the wood rasp too. Thanks Jim.
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by jacon12 on Monday, June 20, 2005 9:09 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ARTHILL

Oleirish reminds us that detail of suggestion is useful. Tear chunks out with vertical strokes. 1/4 to 1/2 inch chunks. Keep them random. Don't clean out the mess. It makes nice random Talus. Then go back with a knife and slice horizontal slices. Experment with patterns as different areas have different strata lines. If you like volcanic areas some of the horizotal strata lines are tipped and even bend up to vertical. As you paint keep different strata areas different colors. Be too bold at first, not too timid. I started my first pike in 9th grade. I learned a lot by mistakes. As Thomas Edison said after years of not making an electic bulb, "I am not a failer, I now know 10,000 things that won't work.
Good Luck and had FUN

Art

Yep, I was cleaning it off real good so I'll not do that. I guess it is just experimentation and trial and error for the most part.
Thanks Art.
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by leighant on Monday, June 20, 2005 9:16 PM
The scenery on this little layout I built years and years ago (in 10 days) is primarily plaster hard shell, but I used a bunch of cat litter as talus.



Cat litter is basically a clay product I believe.
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Posted by Medina1128 on Monday, June 20, 2005 11:02 PM
When you use cat litter, make sure it's the old fashioned clay kind, not the stuff that clumps up. When you wet the clumping stuff, it no longer looks like talus, but grey mud.. ick!!
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Posted by grandeman on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:59 AM
Jerrell, get the cat litter out of the bag only, never the box. [:D]
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Posted by jacon12 on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:06 AM
Cat litter, bag only, clay kind.. ok.. got it.
Thanks guys,
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by oleirish on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:12 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

Cat litter, bag only, clay kind.. ok.. got it.
Thanks guys,
Jarrell
Grage floor sweep will work allso.[;)]
JIM
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Posted by ARTHILL on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:52 AM
The left over from casting rocks and tunnel liners made good rock liter when I broke it up and stained it different colors. I was in a hurry and rather careless in the process and it looked better than when I was carefull. I guess mother nature and blasting crews are rather random when the make rock slides. and mix the colors indiscrimantly. Save all the left overs. I got a great pile of rock for a guy to shovel from some hydrocal that had too much water and wouldn't set right.

Art
If you think you have it right, your standards are too low. my photos http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ARTHILL/ Art
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:52 PM
This might be a little late, but do you have a picture of the rock you were trying to imitate?

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by jacon12 on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:35 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ARTHILL

The left over from casting rocks and tunnel liners made good rock liter when I broke it up and stained it different colors. I was in a hurry and rather careless in the process and it looked better than when I was carefull. I guess mother nature and blasting crews are rather random when the make rock slides. and mix the colors indiscrimantly. Save all the left overs. I got a great pile of rock for a guy to shovel from some hydrocal that had too much water and wouldn't set right.

Art

Art, I'm learning to save scraps of everything.. [:)]
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by jacon12 on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

This might be a little late, but do you have a picture of the rock you were trying to imitate?

Chip, I wasn't really trying to imitate one. I was just trying my hand at carving and it came out looking kinda like a loaf of bread so they guys were giving me tips on how to do it. Most of the rocks I'll be making or carving are grey/tan in color, found in the southern Appalachian mountains. I was just up there in the area and didn't get good shots of them. Good excuse to go back!
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:16 AM
Jarrell,

I would have to say that this rock thing is not really a funny post. Things are geting too serious here. You are going to end up with a reputation like Woody Allen when people ask him about the early "funny " films he made and why he doesn't make those kind of movies anymore.......

As to the rock at hand. I think Selector has it right. There are lots of different prototype rocks out there and choosing the one you want will tell you a lot about how to make it. What you have made could be passable for the decomposing granite found in Joshua Tree CA if you were to color it correctly (the color you have now reminds me of... ..we're not even going to go there).

I think the issue with foam will be getting a texture that is fine enough for most rock species. This could be accomplished by painting the rough shape with plaster or maybe a gesso type product to give a smoother surface.

Another area for experimentation would be to get some fracture lines and striations in the rocks. I'm not sure how well the foam will be able to accompli***his.... Perhaps cutting thin pieces and stacking them up, sealing them and then painting with washes.

On my last layout I hand carved plaster rocks. See my site in the signature. Took several years to complete the carving on a 4' X 16' layout using this method. I didn't work year round, but it was large project. One of the cool things about carving that you don't often see from rock molding techniques is that I was able to align my fracture lines into anticline and sincline formations (the fracture lines follow a consistent pattern through large areas of scenery). On the new layout I will most likely be using molds to make rocks....
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Posted by selector on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:38 AM
Guy, that water tower is, without a doubt, the most amazing thing I've seen on this forum. I can't get over it!
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Posted by jacon12 on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:35 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

Jarrell,

I would have to say that this rock thing is not really a funny post. Things are geting too serious here. You are going to end up with a reputation like Woody Allen when people ask him about the early "funny " films he made and why he doesn't make those kind of movies anymore.......

As to the rock at hand. I think Selector has it right. There are lots of different prototype rocks out there and choosing the one you want will tell you a lot about how to make it. What you have made could be passable for the decomposing granite found in Joshua Tree CA if you were to color it correctly (the color you have now reminds me of... ..we're not even going to go there).

I think the issue with foam will be getting a texture that is fine enough for most rock species. This could be accomplished by painting the rough shape with plaster or maybe a gesso type product to give a smoother surface.

Another area for experimentation would be to get some fracture lines and striations in the rocks. I'm not sure how well the foam will be able to accompli***his.... Perhaps cutting thin pieces and stacking them up, sealing them and then painting with washes.

On my last layout I hand carved plaster rocks. See my site in the signature. Took several years to complete the carving on a 4' X 16' layout using this method. I didn't work year round, but it was large project. One of the cool things about carving that you don't often see from rock molding techniques is that I was able to align my fracture lines into anticline and sincline formations (the fracture lines follow a consistent pattern through large areas of scenery). On the new layout I will most likely be using molds to make rocks....

Guy, you really shouldn't show your layout photos to beginners like me... people that are trying to figure out how to carve a stinkin' rock! I mean really...
Now I think I'll just break mine up for kindlin' wood for the winter..[;)]
You know, my wife came in the train room last night and I was sitting there looking and thinking and she asked me what was wrong and I told her that I didn't think I'd ever finish it. She was kinda surprised by that. I don't think most people don't have a clue as to how complex these things are, I know I didn't. If I did I would have only made one on a 2x4 square foot area...[:D] Would've been a lot less expensive!
Thanks for your advice and suggestions, Guy.
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 11:07 AM


QUOTE: Guy, that water tower is, without a doubt, the most amazing thing I've seen on this forum. I can't get over it!

Crandell that is quite a compliment, Thanks.



QUOTE: You know, my wife came in the train room last night and I was sitting there looking and thinking and she asked me what was wrong and I told her that I didn't think I'd ever finish it. She was kinda surprised by that. I don't think most people don't have a clue as to how complex these things are, I know I didn't.


Amen!!!! You expect to be done some day??...Whats the fun in that?? Then you will just have to start over. This layout will be a snapshot of where you are at this time in terms of your modeling point of view and developmnet. As soon as you do stuff, you see ways to do it better or differently. You will never be done.

Actually, I beleive that you will finish it. The trick is to end up with something that you like and that has some operation to keep your interest after you get the main stuff done. If it is any consolation, I have a trainbuddy in town who has been working on his layout for 20 years and he is not done!! He is a master modeler, a Mozart of modelling (if there is such a thing) and he is not worried about being done. I figure if he is enjoying the ride, why should I let it bother me when I feel that sinking feeling that "I'll never be done".

You are making good progress. Anytime there is forward motion in a weeks time this is a good thing. Many layouts sit for months, even years with no progress at all. You are right when you suggest that it is a complicated hobby. Thats whats cool about it.

When you get the basics completed then there is rolling stock, structures and detailing. On my old layout I went around the layout in waves of detailing. Each time I went back to the scene things got more detailed and I used new techniques that I had learned etc. Rolling stock is another vast area. It is fun to build cars and to weather stuff and then watch it run.

As for the rock topic, I was thinking you might find rock molds to be quicker and easier than carving foam. Check out woodland scenics and bragdon enterprises for molds.
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Posted by jacon12 on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:00 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250



QUOTE: Guy, that water tower is, without a doubt, the most amazing thing I've seen on this forum. I can't get over it!

Crandell that is quite a compliment, Thanks.



QUOTE: You know, my wife came in the train room last night and I was sitting there looking and thinking and she asked me what was wrong and I told her that I didn't think I'd ever finish it. She was kinda surprised by that. I don't think most people don't have a clue as to how complex these things are, I know I didn't.


Amen!!!! You expect to be done some day??...Whats the fun in that?? Then you will just have to start over. This layout will be a snapshot of where you are at this time in terms of your modeling point of view and developmnet. As soon as you do stuff, you see ways to do it better or differently. You will never be done.

Actually, I beleive that you will finish it. The trick is to end up with something that you like and that has some operation to keep your interest after you get the main stuff done. If it is any consolation, I have a trainbuddy in town who has been working on his layout for 20 years and he is not done!! He is a master modeler, a Mozart of modelling (if there is such a thing) and he is not worried about being done. I figure if he is enjoying the ride, why should I let it bother me when I feel that sinking feeling that "I'll never be done".

You are making good progress. Anytime there is forward motion in a weeks time this is a good thing. Many layouts sit for months, even years with no progress at all. You are right when you suggest that it is a complicated hobby. Thats whats cool about it.

When you get the basics completed then there is rolling stock, structures and detailing. On my old layout I went around the layout in waves of detailing. Each time I went back to the scene things got more detailed and I used new techniques that I had learned etc. Rolling stock is another vast area. It is fun to build cars and to weather stuff and then watch it run.

As for the rock topic, I was thinking you might find rock molds to be quicker and easier than carving foam. Check out woodland scenics and bragdon enterprises for molds.


I appreciate you reminding me of something I knew, but pu***o the back of my mind. It's the ride and not necessarily getting to the station that matters. Just enjoy the ride 'cause when you get there you just have to buy another ticket and take off again.
Jarrell
 HO Scale DCC Modeler of 1950, give or take 30 years.

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