Can't get around not doing it....

[jacon12]

The other day, in another thread, I was asking about using hydrocal/plaster soaked paper towels over my 2 inch foam mountains etc. and someone, sorry I forget who, made a good case for not doing that. I forgot to mention at the time that I was using Woodland Scenic risers and inclines to elevate parts of my track.

These sit, as most of you know, on the base and I can't think of any other way to 'cover' them, other than using something like hydrocal.
Can you?
So I'm guessing that I'll have to cover them this way and not do the same for other areas?
Jarrell

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

The other day, in another thread, I was asking about using hydrocal/plaster soaked paper towels over my 2 inch foam mountains etc. and someone, sorry I forget who, made a good case for not doing that. I forgot to mention at the time that I was using Woodland Scenic risers and inclines to elevate parts of my track.

These sit, as most of you know, on the base and I can't think of any other way to 'cover' them, other than using something like hydrocal.
Can you?
So I'm guessing that I'll have to cover them this way and not do the same for other areas?
Jarrell

Jarrell: just a throught,my LHS has some inpregnated cloth (w/plaster)mybe you could lift your track up put this stuff over the top of your risers,some of it comes in 6"width,and some in 8" I think the eight inch might work[:)]IMHO this will work.

JIM

[pcarrell]

You had a post the other day that showed a car on top of a stack of foam in a corner where you were putting a tunnel. I kidded you about the steep grades if you remember.

I curious as to why you can't use the same concept in this case. Just stack the foam up using smaller and smaller pieces until you get to the top. Then you just shave the edges until its a continueous slope.

Or maybe I'm missing the point here?

[selector]

Jarrell, what is the point to this grade? Where is it? Is it going up a hill? Is it merely a ramp up to another level, as yet undefined?

As Jim suggests, the risers give you the basic elevation in a controlled manner, but what are they 'on'? If on a hillside, then you need to build the hill as pcarrell is indicating, and you COULD use the plaster cloth as Jim says. So, build up you layers, some flush up against the risers on either side, and cut them roughly, initially, in such a way as to suggest a rough hillside. The risers will be at the base of a cut that the civil engineers would have had built for the railbed. To blend the cut into the 'hillside', you could use the cloth as Jim suggests; wet it in strips, and immediately lay it over the risers, with quite a bit of overlap for support. (Wet the plaster, if you've not yet learned, is just a second or two in the water...no more. Hold it at two corners with your forefingers and thumbs, dip-two-three, lift out, and place.) You'll probably cover it with ballast later, so it won't look like plaster cloth, and what is visible will be painted over, ground foamed, and shrubs/bushes added....or rocks.

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Jarrell, what is the point to this grade? Where is it? Is it going up a hill? Is it merely a ramp up to another level, as yet undefined?

As Jim suggests, the risers give you the basic elevation in a controlled manner, but what are they 'on'? If on a hillside, then you need to build the hill as pcarrell is indicating, and you COULD use the plaster cloth as Jim says. So, build up you layers, some flush up against the risers on either side, and cut them roughly, initially, in such a way as to suggest a rough hillside. The risers will be at the base of a cut that the civil engineers would have had built for the railbed. To blend the cut into the 'hillside', you could use the cloth as Jim suggests; wet it in strips, and immediately lay it over the risers, with quite a bit of overlap for support. (Wet the plaster, if you've not yet learned, is just a second or two in the water...no more. Hold it at two corners with your forefingers and thumbs, dip-two-three, lift out, and place.) You'll probably cover it with ballast later, so it won't look like plaster cloth, and what is visible will be painted over, ground foamed, and shrubs/bushes added....or rocks.

Your right on,just remembered the name of the filler Is use It is RED DEVIL sheet rock and wall board filler really works great and is lite,drys fast[2c]
Jim

[jacon12]

The grade is going up to the logging area..

and so far I've used two inch foam AND woodland scenics risers and inclines in this fashion..

This drawing only shows 8 feet but the total run is 16 feet approx, giving me an 8 inch rise.
As suggested I think the thing to do is use the hydrocal soaked paper towels to cover the inclines and risers.
Jarrell

[Jetrock]

What are you going to use underneath the paper towels? Simply draping the towels over the styrofoam won't look very good...crumpled up balls of newspaper or paper bags, taped in place, will provide some scenic support. Cork or foam roadbed will cover the tops of the risers, and ballast will cover the roadbed.

[jhugart]

I'd recommend against using plaster because it is messy, and it probably takes more than you expect.

There's a scenery book that came out recently, lots of color photos, showing the same Woodlands Scenics risers in use, followed by a covering of Ground Goop which acts as the scenery base. You might take a look at the book -- I'm sorry, I'm at work and don't have it with me.

[Anonymous]

Jarrell,

I have followed your layout development from day one with much interest. I can offer you one alternative which may work for you as I had a similar problem.

To cover my risers and trackbed, I filled underneath with scaps of foam (which you don't seem to require) and sprayed a top coat of "Great Stuff" liquid foam. Many will poo-poo this option because it can be messy, smelly, ...essentially pick a word and add "LY" to it[(-D]

Cover everything you don't want liquid foam on with masking tape. Then build the foam up from the bottom to the top. Keep in mind that it expands. When it's cured (usually 24 hours), you can cut and shape it using a knife, xacto blade, surform shaper et al. After I had shaped mine I then gave it a couple thin coats of ready mix drywall compound. When dry you can sand it if you like, but with some clever knife/trowel work you wont have to. I then finished my "rock cuts" with WS Earth pigment and ground foam. It looks great.

Using this type of foam also give you a base to stick trees into that is firm but not hard.

Best of luck on what you choose,
Trevor [:)]

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

The other day, in another thread, I was asking about using hydrocal/plaster soaked paper towels over my 2 inch foam mountains etc. and someone, sorry I forget who, made a good case for not doing that. I forgot to mention at the time that I was using Woodland Scenic risers and inclines to elevate parts of my track.

These sit, as most of you know, on the base and I can't think of any other way to 'cover' them, other than using something like hydrocal.
Can you?
So I'm guessing that I'll have to cover them this way and not do the same for other areas?
Jarrell

That was me, Jarrell: the Foam Militant.

I'll admit that using plaster-soaked towelling draped over a support of some sort (the balled up newspaper trick) will be the easiest solution, but it's not the only one. As I posted on the other thread, the biggest drawbacks to plaster is in it's breakability and mess. There are quicker, cleaner and less messy foam alternatives.

Firsto of all, based on your sketch above, you could add sheets of foam along the side of the risers, to hide the strange side profile of the risers. Once the sheets are in and the adhesive's set, fill in any gaps with Great Stuff "foam in a can". One or two cans should do your entire layout, and the stuff is carveable once it's set (overnight, usually. Be sure to SLOWLY add the GS; if sprayed fast, it produces large Swiss cheese-like holes in it's guts. Slowly spraying the GS will produce smaller holes. And don't forget that it expands to at least twice it's initial size!). Once the GS has dried, just start carving and shaping the foam. You'll have to fill in from the tops of the risers anyway (even if you use plaster) so why not start by filling them in with GS and giving it a shot? At worst, you can add plaster cloth over any failed foam attempts.

[leighant]

I have used hard-shell hydrocal, paper towels.

With your foam risers, I would recommend using bits and chunks and layers of foam to go up to the foam risers to give ROUGH shape of scenery.

Then I would use CELL-U-CLAY brand paper mache, thin layer on top of foam to fill in cracks, holes, etc. Much lighter than plaster and cleans up easier. Probably a oittle less messy than plaster, but regardless, any messiness cleans up more easily. Not a perfect texture for rockwork but....

Paint surface of celluclay. If you have a bucket of "dirt colored" interior latex wall paint, would work fine if you don't have someone with acute latex allergy in your household. The little plastic bottles of craft paints the ladies' craft stores sell for 79 cents a bottle would also be okay-- if you have a good color sense, you can mix their cutesy "crafty" colors to make rugged earth colors.

Then add ground foam to taste.

Easy inexpensive, lightweight, fairly realistic not-too-messy scenery forms.
(I'll see if I have some samplke pictures...)

[leighant]

By the way, are you using anything directly UNDER your track other than the Woodland Scenics foam risers (with spaces in between them)...like ROADBED??? Are you going to have something to keep your ballast from falling down between the foam pieces when you ballast the track?

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

What are you going to use underneath the paper towels? Simply draping the towels over the styrofoam won't look very good...crumpled up balls of newspaper or paper bags, taped in place, will provide some scenic support. Cork or foam roadbed will cover the tops of the risers, and ballast will cover the roadbed.

Thanks Jetrock, I had not thought of that. The towels would conform to the 'spaces' in the risers and that wouldn't be good unless you did a lot of groundcover of some type, i.e. rocks, grass, dirt. over it.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhugart

I'd recommend against using plaster because it is messy, and it probably takes more than you expect.

There's a scenery book that came out recently, lots of color photos, showing the same Woodlands Scenics risers in use, followed by a covering of Ground Goop which acts as the scenery base. You might take a look at the book -- I'm sorry, I'm at work and don't have it with me.

Jacob, if you remember it when you get home please let me know. Ground Goop huh! Sounds intriquing.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TrevorG

Jarrell,

I have followed your layout development from day one with much interest. I can offer you one alternative which may work for you as I had a similar problem.

To cover my risers and trackbed, I filled underneath with scaps of foam (which you don't seem to require) and sprayed a top coat of "Great Stuff" liquid foam. Many will poo-poo this option because it can be messy, smelly, ...essentially pick a word and add "LY" to it[(-D]

Cover everything you don't want liquid foam on with masking tape. Then build the foam up from the bottom to the top. Keep in mind that it expands. When it's cured (usually 24 hours), you can cut and shape it using a knife, xacto blade, surform shaper et al. After I had shaped mine I then gave it a couple thin coats of ready mix drywall compound. When dry you can sand it if you like, but with some clever knife/trowel work you wont have to. I then finished my "rock cuts" with WS Earth pigment and ground foam. It looks great.

Using this type of foam also give you a base to stick trees into that is firm but not hard.

Best of luck on what you choose,
Trevor [:)]

Trevor, thank you for the options.
Things are going slow on the layout right now,, it seems to come in spurts of fast and slow and I've got to get more in the habit of staying on ONE thing and not getting sidetracked into what should be done over there so much! [:)]
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

The other day, in another thread, I was asking about using hydrocal/plaster soaked paper towels over my 2 inch foam mountains etc. and someone, sorry I forget who, made a good case for not doing that. I forgot to mention at the time that I was using Woodland Scenic risers and inclines to elevate parts of my track.

These sit, as most of you know, on the base and I can't think of any other way to 'cover' them, other than using something like hydrocal.
Can you?
So I'm guessing that I'll have to cover them this way and not do the same for other areas?
Jarrell

That was me, Jarrell: the Foam Militant.

I'll admit that using plaster-soaked towelling draped over a support of some sort (the balled up newspaper trick) will be the easiest solution, but it's not the only one. As I posted on the other thread, the biggest drawbacks to plaster is in it's breakability and mess. There are quicker, cleaner and less messy foam alternatives.

Firsto of all, based on your sketch above, you could add sheets of foam along the side of the risers, to hide the strange side profile of the risers. Once the sheets are in and the adhesive's set, fill in any gaps with Great Stuff "foam in a can". One or two cans should do your entire layout, and the stuff is carveable once it's set (overnight, usually. Be sure to SLOWLY add the GS; if sprayed fast, it produces large Swiss cheese-like holes in it's guts. Slowly spraying the GS will produce smaller holes. And don't forget that it expands to at least twice it's initial size!). Once the GS has dried, just start carving and shaping the foam. You'll have to fill in from the tops of the risers anyway (even if you use plaster) so why not start by filling them in with GS and giving it a shot? At worst, you can add plaster cloth over any failed foam attempts.

Hey there Mr. Militant..[:)]
You have another alternative to the hardshell method and I appreciate it. Those are good ideas and I'll certainly keep them in mind!
Jarrell

[leighant]

Here is a sample of the scenery terrain method I described. This is parf of a small diorama on which I used scrap white foam packing box inserts that some electronic product came in to build a basic scenery form, then Celluclay(tm), acrylic paint, and ground foam.




I put this picture on my Railimages site to illustrate the first N scale building I built (in 1969 in a hospital bed) to see if N scale was a viable modeling scale. I Photoshop-airbrushed out the edge of the diorama so the raw edges of the scrap foam don't show. It would have been better for showing the techique if I had not done that, but that is not why I uploaded this particular photo. It still shows how the scenery looks.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

I have used hard-shell hydrocal, paper towels.

With your foam risers, I would recommend using bits and chunks and layers of foam to go up to the foam risers to give ROUGH shape of scenery.

Then I would use CELL-U-CLAY brand paper mache, thin layer on top of foam to fill in cracks, holes, etc. Much lighter than plaster and cleans up easier. Probably a oittle less messy than plaster, but regardless, any messiness cleans up more easily. Not a perfect texture for rockwork but....

Paint surface of celluclay. If you have a bucket of "dirt colored" interior latex wall paint, would work fine if you don't have someone with acute latex allergy in your household. The little plastic bottles of craft paints the ladies' craft stores sell for 79 cents a bottle would also be okay-- if you have a good color sense, you can mix their cutesy "crafty" colors to make rugged earth colors.

Then add ground foam to taste.

Easy inexpensive, lightweight, fairly realistic not-too-messy scenery forms.
(I'll see if I have some samplke pictures...)

Thanks leighant, I've not heard of celluclay before. I wonder if it's available at stores like Michaels (chaintype craft stores). I've picked up some great ideas in this tread and I like the foam 'cuncks' along the side method as well as the paper wads.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

By the way, are you using anything directly UNDER your track other than the Woodland Scenics foam risers (with spaces in between them)...like ROADBED??? Are you going to have something to keep your ballast from falling down between the foam pieces when you ballast the track?

Yes, I'll use either cork or AMI roadbed.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Jarrell,
I think the stacked foam that gets cut with various knives and shaping tools sounds most viable to me. I've used Great Stuff for other things around the house, I dont think there is much advantage to it.

I think that building up the contours of the ground the way you want them is most important here. You could do this with scrap foam, paper footballs or metal window screen material (I'm pretty old school). Once you have the contour any of the fillers described will work to smooth stuff out. I would stay away from stuff that doesn't dry at least semi water impervious (like dry wall mud).

BTW: Your train room is waaaaay too clean. You might want to use plaster just to liven up the reparte between yourself and the missus....what do mean those are my footprints????....Just because they are white and coming from the train room...And there is the classic "Is that my good bowl?" By the way any bowl you choose, even if you go out and buy a new one she has never seen, will become the "good bowl". I have a fork that I have used to retrieve wood from my alcohol and ink jar for many years that is pitch black. Everytime my wife sees it she gets mad about the good fork that I ruined....

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

Jarrell,
I think the stacked foam that gets cut with various knives and shaping tools sounds most viable to me. I've used Great Stuff for other things around the house, I dont think there is much advantage to it.

I think that building up the contours of the ground the way you want them is most important here. You could do this with scrap foam, paper footballs or metal window screen material (I'm pretty old school). Once you have the contour any of the fillers described will work to smooth stuff out. I would stay away from stuff that doesn't dry at least semi water impervious (like dry wall mud).

BTW: Your train room is waaaaay too clean. You might want to use plaster just to liven up the reparte between yourself and the missus....what do mean those are my footprints????....Just because they are white and coming from the train room...And there is the classic "Is that my good bowl?" By the way any bowl you choose, even if you go out and buy a new one she has never seen, will become the "good bowl". I have a fork that I have used to retrieve wood from my alcohol and ink jar for many years that is pitch black. Everytime my wife sees it she gets mad about the good fork that I ruined....

Thank you Guy for your help.
Btw, I got a good laugh off that last paragraph [(-D]
Once when I was trying some Sculpta mold or something like it I got the 'is that my good bowl' line.
I didn't think it was but I went to the Dollar Store and bought a couple of cheap plastic bowls. I used one of them and guess where I found the other one a bit later.
Yep, in a kitchen cabinet.
"Is that my GOOD bowl?"
'you mean this old thing? I've had it forever"
I turned it over and showed her the dollar store tag on the bottom... [:D]
Jarrell

[selector]

At this point, Jarrell, my concerted advice to you us to pick a method that seems'right' and doable for you. Your instincts are your best guide, and you will succeed beyond your wildest dreams regardless of what you end up doing..if my experience is anything like yours. Any one of them will work just fine, but now you gotta choose!

The secret, so take a pause and think here, is how the "whole' will look when you are done in that area of the layout. You have at least one other nearly parallel track nearby, so how will that be integrated into whatever you build for your grade and risers? It has to be believable.

[Medina1128]

Heck, I would just build a mountain over the grade. Then all you have to do is ballast a few inches inside the tunnel. You can save all your carving for the mountain. It's easier to carve a large area than it is to carve around track, roadbed, etc.

[lester2max]

jacon12 , if i'm viewing your math right, you have a 4.+% grade for your trains to climb.
REMEMBER: an X % grade means you must have (either in feet or inches) a ratio of
100 to 1 or for every 1"rise you need 100"'s run for a 1% grade. This is an absulute &
can not be cheated on. lester2max

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lester2max

jacon12 , if i'm viewing your math right, you have a 4.+% grade for your trains to climb.
REMEMBER: an X % grade means you must have (either in feet or inches) a ratio of
100 to 1 or for every 1"rise you need 100"'s run for a 1% grade. This is an absulute &
can not be cheated on. lester2max

Lester, I tend to agree with you so that was why I was a little puzzled when I read on the side of the Woodland Scenics inclines that the particualr box was for a 4% grade and there were enough inclines in the box to run 8 linear feet.

Of course you also need the risers to step them up. There are 4 inclines per box/set and each incline is 2 feet long.
In any event I just backed 5 cars up the incline, which is 16 feet long, with a curve, and it climbs from 0 inches to 8 inches in that climb, using a Kato SD-40 loco. However, the Kato is not the engine that I will be using for the grade, but a Shay and the max train will probably be 4 log cars. Here a lilttle P2K GP9 pulls 8 cars up the grade with no problem.

You see, I'm so new at all this I don't know you can't do things.
Still, it remains to be seen how it will all work out since this is my first layout... ever.
Jarrell