Questions on some things..

[jacon12]

Well, things are proceeding rather slowly.. me thinks. Here is the latest revision of the No Track Plan track plan..

and even it is incomplete naturally, just as a no plan should be. One question I have is what is the height and width of tunnel portals? I have two of them to deal with, so far. Will four inches high and wide be enough? Tunnel A and B seen here and the access 'hole' in the rear

I've put in a rather long double ended siding with a turnout on it to service the lumber company and another small business in the same area. I've had to take up more space for the 'mountain' the sawmill will sit on because I needed to move tunnel A forward enough so that I could better work on that area.
Below is a picture that show how high the 'mountain' will be. The small pieces of foam the car is sitting on will, of course, be removed.

So how big do I make these openings for the tunnels, on average?
Thanks,
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Jarrel,

I have a Woodland Scenics precast tunnel portal (stone) laying around and I measured it for you.

Outside, overall width is 8". Height is 5-1/2".

The opening is 4-5/8" wide and 4" high at the top of a slight arch.

Hope that helps.

Doug

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by douort

Jarrel,

I have a Woodland Scenics precast tunnel portal (stone) laying around and I measured it for you.

Outside, overall width is 8". Height is 5-1/2".

The opening is 4-5/8" wide and 4" high at the top of a slight arch.

Hope that helps.

Doug

Thanks Doug, that helps a lot!
Jarrell

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

Well, things are proceeding rather slowly.. me thinks. Here is the latest revision of the No Track Plan track plan..

and even it is incomplete naturally, just as a no plan should be. One question I have is what is the height and width of tunnel portals? I have two of them to deal with, so far. Will four inches high and wide be enough? Tunnel A and B seen here and the access 'hole' in the rear

I've put in a rather long double ended siding with a turnout on it to service the lumber company and another small business in the same area. I've had to take up more space for the 'mountain' the sawmill will sit on because I needed to move tunnel A forward enough so that I could better work on that area.
Below is a picture that show how high the 'mountain' will be. The small pieces of foam the car is sitting on will, of course, be removed.

So how big do I make these openings for the tunnels, on average?
Thanks,
Jarrell

#1 Are you going to have a lift out section in the tunnel area?
#2 In mho you should make space to get your hand in the tunnel ,hidden or otherwise! Other than that it is looking real good Jarrell[:p]BTW is that the messed up buliding?If so looks ok to me[^]
Jim

[ereimer]

one question about the double eneded siding... does the 'to be joined later' comment mean to be joined to the main line ? if so you'd then have a passing siding which could also be used for a run around for switching the lumber co. otherwise you'd have a switchback which normally wouldn't be used to switch an industry unless you had to go up a steep hill in a short distance

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

#1 Are you going to have a lift out section in the tunnel area?
#2 In mho you should make space to get your hand in the tunnel ,hidden or otherwise! Other than that it is looking real good Jarrell[:p]BTW is that the messed up buliding?If so looks ok to me[^]

Jim

Jim, there will be access at the rear, actually the side, to get under the mountain to the tracks. I was just sitting here thinking how high to make it under there, if 4 inches would be enough, or should I go 6. I've also considered making the whole top removable but I'm concerned, with my limited skills, if I can conceal the seam properly.
Yep.. [:(] that's the building. I figured out a way to hide my dumb goof! Now I've got to paint and weather it so you guys are in for a boatload of questions!
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

one question about the double eneded siding... does the 'to be joined later' comment mean to be joined to the main line ? if so you'd then have a passing siding which could also be used for a run around for switching the lumber co. otherwise you'd have a switchback which normally wouldn't be used to switch an industry unless you had to go up a steep hill in a short distance

You got it Ereimer. The idea is to join it back into the mainline creating passing siding. Could you explain to me though the advantage of having a run around for the lumber company, how would the engineer handle that in a real life situation?
Thanks for any help!
Jarrell

[pcarrell]

It would make it so that an engineer could break his train at the tail end of the cars to be spotted and then pull forward. Then he would back on to the siding and drop the cars to be spotted. Then he would go get any cars in the siding that needed picked up. He would then pull them out and couple on to the train that is on the main. At this point it looks like this; the cars to be spotted are on the siding, the main train is on the mainline with the train (all other cars not involved in this manuver) at the back of the lineup, the loco in the middle, and the loaded cars he just picked up in front of the loco. Now the whole train backs up and then moves forward onto the siding pushing the empty cars to be spotted out in front (if you want to you could drop everything behind the loco on the siding). The loco then drops the empties at the lumber yard and backs up. The loaded cars from the lumber yard are still in front of the loco. To get them where they need to be the loco drops them onto the siding and backs up with the rest of the train onto the main. The engineer then cuts the train where he wants the loaded cars to go and pulls forward and backs onto the siding. He picks up the loaded cars and pulls onto the main. He backs onto the rest of the train, tests the brakes, and his on his way.

Clear as mud, right?

Track planning for realistic operation has all of this in it and is well worth the money.

Hope that helps!

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

Jarrell,

Seems like a pretty small yard up their on that 8" high pinnacle, don't you think? [(-D]

BTW, welcome back. How did your excursion to GSMRR with the grandkids go last weekend?

Tom

[pcarrell]

I agree, small yard! And the grades are murder! [(-D]

[jacon12]

No no guys! Ya'll are picking at me ... I hope! Thats not the yard, I just set the car there for reference as to the height of the hill.
I'll agree the grade is murder, a constant 4% without letup. I may be taking it apart one day.. :)
Jarrell

[selector]

Jarrell, I measured my stone WS portals, and derived a considerably different measurement. Note, however, that I am using a single-wide portal on a single-track main, so the quote above might be for a double-wide.

My outer dimensions are: 6"X6"

Orifice is roughly (hard to get a tape in there for accurate measurement): 23/4" wide at track level, and about 3 3/4" high at the keystone,

The cast portal, itself, is about 3/4" thick.

[bogp40]

Jarrell,
If you have decent size of access from the side, a removable hatch or cover is not nec. The problems of hiding a removable section that is so "in your face, up close" is not worth the trouble. Besides, if you glue down a 1/2" plywood deck over the foam supports, you could expand the trackage for the logging branch and lay roadbed directly on the ply. This base could also act as a foundation for any structures, etc.
Bob K.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

It would make it so that an engineer

<<<snip>>>

Clear as mud, right?

Track planning for realistic operation has all of this in it and is well worth the money.

Hope that helps!

exactly what i was going to say
except i'd take 3 times as many words to do it and nobody would understand it when i was done [:D]

sounds like a fun place to drop off and pick up some cars

[rayhippard]

Jarrell,
My suggestion would be to run the passing siding around the curve all the way to the town and connect it to the mainline just like you did near the lumber company and have the turnout for access to the town come off of the passing siding so you will have a run around track at the town as well. If you have room for a second passing siding off of the first passing siding, you could switch either end without using the mainline and blocking mainline trains, letting you have two operations going on at once, even have two engineers operating at the same time and they could even switch both ends of the layout at the same time if you are using DCC. Actually could be done using DC with the correct electrical block system. Just food for thought. And your progress looks great so far. Also, watch portal clearance at "B" because of curve and equipment overhang.
Ray---------Great Northern fan.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Jarrell, I measured my stone WS portals, and derived a considerably different measurement. Note, however, that I am using a single-wide portal on a single-track main, so the quote above might be for a double-wide.

My outer dimensions are: 6"X6"

Orifice is roughly (hard to get a tape in there for accurate measurement): 23/4" wide at track level, and about 3 3/4" high at the keystone,

The cast portal, itself, is about 3/4" thick.

Thanks Crandell. I should have said that it was for a single track. I appreciate the measurements. Man! I thought I had all kindsa room to play with..[:D]
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Robert Knapp

Jarrell,
If you have decent size of access from the side, a removable hatch or cover is not nec. The problems of hiding a removable section that is so "in your face, up close" is not worth the trouble. Besides, if you glue down a 1/2" plywood deck over the foam supports, you could expand the trackage for the logging branch and lay roadbed directly on the ply. This base could also act as a foundation for any structures, etc.
Bob K.

Bob, when I got it up to 4 inches high (the foam 'supports' you see here) I was gonna put a piece of the 2 inch foam (a base piece) over that and then build up from there. Bad idea?
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayhippard

Jarrell,
My suggestion would be to run the passing siding around the curve all the way to the town and connect it to the mainline just like you did near the lumber company and have the turnout for access to the town come off of the passing siding so you will have a run around track at the town as well. If you have room for a second passing siding off of the first passing siding, you could switch either end without using the mainline and blocking mainline trains, letting you have two operations going on at once, even have two engineers operating at the same time and they could even switch both ends of the layout at the same time if you are using DCC. Actually could be done using DC with the correct electrical block system. Just food for thought. And your progress looks great so far. Also, watch portal clearance at "B" because of curve and equipment overhang.
Ray---------Great Northern fan.

Ray, you're right.. since I will have a turnout to go into that town (like on the other end). In my limited experience I don't believe I've ever seen a passing siding off a passing siding, though I probably did and just didn't pay attention to it. I'm going to have to get some more track and a couple more turnouts (Man.! layouts eat up turnouts!!) and try what you're suggesting. This thing, in a year or so, isn't going to resemble what I started with, except for the basic maintrack dogbone but that's ok, I'm learning new stuff!
Yes, I am using DCC.
Jarrell

[pcarrell]

Now thats what model railroading is all about.

"Honey, I'll only need a little money, a little space and a little time and it'll all be built!"

Several thousand dollars, 20 years later and half the house taken over and you still have a long way to go on your "humble" pike! [8D]

Just remember, it's not done until you can't work on it any more (ie, you go to meet your maker!)

[chateauricher]

Jarell,

If you can make your access hole 6" high, I'd go for it. Just think how large your hand is when you're holding a piece of rolling stock -- 4" might be a bit tight.

Heed Ray's advice about your tunnel portal width at both "A" and "B". Do some test fits with your longest equipment before final instalation.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by douort

Jarrel,

I have a Woodland Scenics precast tunnel portal (stone) laying around and I measured it for you.

Outside, overall width is 8". Height is 5-1/2".

The opening is 4-5/8" wide and 4" high at the top of a slight arch.

Hope that helps.

Doug

Jarrell,

Sorry, if I mislead you on those dimensions. My WS portal was in an unmarked box and I didn't pay any attention as to whether or not it was single or double track. It looks a little wide for single track so it could be a double.

The NMRA HO track guage indicates you should have 2 1/16" clearance for a single track (side to side), so my original dimensions must have been for a double-track portal.

Doug

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

Now thats what model railroading is all about.

"Honey, I'll only need a little money, a little space and a little time and it'll all be built!"

Several thousand dollars, 20 years later and half the house taken over and you still have a long way to go on your "humble" pike! [8D]

Just remember, it's not done until you can't work on it any more (ie, you go to meet your maker!)

I remember when I first was talking to my wife about this and I told her that I thought I could do all the benchwork, foam and track for about $500 or so. This coming from a fella that hadn't bought or priced a 2x4 in years. Boy did I have a rude awakening at the Home Depot! Then I start the basic track plan and I find I can't do this or that so it's add more sidings, more turnouts and you know what ONE turnout can cost.
On top of that I get to a spot where I just stand and stare at it for long periods, trying to think ahead so I don't make a major, major goof. It reminds me of putting one of those thousand piece jigsaw puzzles together and you've got several pieces missing for the moment so you try to work around that part.
I take back eveything I said about finishing. I doubt I ever will..[(-D]
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

Jarell,

If you can make your access hole 6" high, I'd go for it. Just think how large your hand is when you're holding a piece of rolling stock -- 4" might be a bit tight.

Heed Ray's advice about your tunnel portal width at both "A" and "B". Do some test fits with your longest equipment before final instalation.

Ok, I'll make it as high as I can. The entire mountain/hill is going to be 8 inches high so I should be able to raise the height of the access hole.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by douort

QUOTE: Originally posted by douort

Jarrel,

I have a Woodland Scenics precast tunnel portal (stone) laying around and I measured it for you.

Outside, overall width is 8". Height is 5-1/2".

The opening is 4-5/8" wide and 4" high at the top of a slight arch.

Hope that helps.

Doug

Jarrell,

Sorry, if I mislead you on those dimensions. My WS portal was in an unmarked box and I didn't pay any attention as to whether or not it was single or double track. It looks a little wide for single track so it could be a double.

The NMRA HO track guage indicates you should have 2 1/16" clearance for a single track (side to side), so my original dimensions must have been for a double-track portal.

Doug

No problem Doug, I appreciate your help. I've already learned not to put things in 'cement' until the very last moment if I can help it. I need to go into town today so I'll stop by the LHS and see if they have a WS single portal in stock.
Jarrell

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

#1 Are you going to have a lift out section in the tunnel area?
#2 In mho you should make space to get your hand in the tunnel ,hidden or otherwise! Other than that it is looking real good Jarrell[:p]BTW is that the messed up buliding?If so looks ok to me[^]

Jim

Jim, there will be access at the rear, actually the side, to get under the mountain to the tracks. I was just sitting here thinking how high to make it under there, if 4 inches would be enough, or should I go 6. I've also considered making the whole top removable but I'm concerned, with my limited skills, if I can conceal the seam properly.
Yep.. [:(] that's the building. I figured out a way to hide my dumb goof! Now I've got to paint and weather it so you guys are in for a boatload of questions!
Jarrell

Jarrell: By the way nice pictures of your trip,Seeing your granddaughter asleep,reminds me of my grandson who allways want to go fishing with grandpa,the in root to the fishing spots,he goes to sleep,I think the boat kind of hypnotizes him.Now he is old enough to run the boat and I sleep[^]anyway In MHO 4" sould be enough.
JIM

[Anonymous]

Jarrell,

RE Run arounds:

A lot of people on the forum overlook the need for these in the track plans I see posted. To explain why you need them it is helpful to define a couple of terms: Facing point move and trailing point move.

A facing point move is any turn out that relative to the direction of the train travel the locomotive has to pull inhto the siding head first. The locomotive is said to be facing the points. A trailing point move is a siding where relative to the direction of train travel the locomotive will back into the siding. Here the points are trailing behind the loco. You can see that any siding can have both moves depending on which direction you appoach it .

Consider what happens during each move:

Trailing point: This is real easy because the loco backs into the siding to get the cars and then pulls them out, backs them onto the train and keeps on movinig in the direction he was originally heading. Any moves to drop off and pick up cars are pretty easy.

Facing point: Now we are in trouble. The loco pulls in head first to get the cars and pull them out . The cars are on the front of the loco and the rest of the train is behind the loco. Unless the train wants to run the cars in front of the loco the rest of the trip, the loco must be able to get in front of the cars or run around them. In order to do this there must be a double ended siding that the loco can park the cars on and run past them back onto them and continue on. Any single spur from a mainline will have this problem depending on direction of travel for the approaching train. One direction will be trailing (no problem) the other wiill be facing point (needs run around)

Now most guys reading this are saying "no big deal, I'll just always make sure I switch trailing point". This can be done, but many times may not be possible given direction of train travel on the main. It also means that you rob some flexibility from the track plan and are forced to switch the same way and run trains from the same direction the whole time leading to boredom with the completed layout because of operational limitations.

Try out the plan with some cars on paper to get a feel for what I am talking about. Not every spur will have a run around, but large industries or major switching areas (say a bunch of industries) will generally have a run-around. In terms of running the layout you need a few or switching becomes boring (or worse, frustrating) and operation becomes mundane and predictable. I tore out my last layout partly because I hadn't planned for these....

Hope this helps....

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Jarrell, I measured my stone WS portals, and derived a considerably different measurement. Note, however, that I am using a single-wide portal on a single-track main, so the quote above might be for a double-wide.

My outer dimensions are: 6"X6"

Orifice is roughly (hard to get a tape in there for accurate measurement): 23/4" wide at track level, and about 3 3/4" high at the keystone,

The cast portal, itself, is about 3/4" thick.

Thanks Crandell. I should have said that it was for a single track. I appreciate the measurements. Man! I thought I had all kindsa room to play with..[:D]
Jarrell

Well, I'm afraid it gets a bit worse. I see that you have a portal tentatively set in the lower left of your upper-left loop. It is set on a curve. So are all of mine, at 22" radius. Depending on what you run through those portals, even foreseeably, you may get contact with the rolling stock, such as longer pax cars, on the inside edge of the portal, relative to the inside of the curve. You see what I mean, right? So, the trick (and I am not attempting to dissuade you from your plan, by the way), is to ensure that the portal is oriented very closely to 90 deg from the axis, or tangent, of the curve at the point where you place the portal. IOWs, don't have the portal angled relative to the track, but perfectly perpendicular. This gives you max clearances. Next, keeping that orientation, displace the portal about 1/4-3/8" toward the INSIDE of the curve. That is, the portal wall on the inside of the curve should afford the passing train the greater clearance. Your loco pilot, etc., should not foul the outer wall, but the best way to be sure is to PROVE THE TRACK before fixing anything into place.

Ain't it fun?

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayhippard

Jarrell,
My suggestion would be to run the passing siding around the curve all the way to the town and connect it to the mainline just like you did near the lumber company....
Ray---------Great Northern fan.

I didn't think you could put a turnout on a curve. Or is it you can, just don't curve the track back again too soon, like in a S?
Jarrell

[tstage]

Jarrell,

Actually, there ARE curved turnouts available by Walthers-Shinohara. Unfortunately for us, they seem to pass over anything that could attach to a 22' radius curve. (18" then 24"...but NO 22"! That just completely mistifies me.. [V])

Tom

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell,

Actually, there ARE curved turnouts available by Walthers-Shinohara. Unfortunately for us, they seem to pass over anything that could attach to a 22' radius curve. (18" then 24"...but NO 22"! That just completely mistifies me.. [V])

Tom

Model Power (Roco) had curved turnouts with the larger radius 22". The smaller was 18". I have several of them that I picked up years ago....but have had no chance to put them to use. I'm not sure when they stopped being available, but it may be worth keeping an eye out on ebay, and at train shows.