The Cart Before The Horse?

[jacon12]

It's easy, when making track plans, to say.. I'd like a logging operation there and a saw mill here and a brick supplier down over there, then run track by those areas. But... you were waiting for the but weren't you. [:)]. is it wise to have a couple of structures on hand (great excuse to go buy a saw mill!!), or at least know the footprints of them, so that you know just how to place the track and how much space to allow? Or does it matter that much? Which comes first or do you kinda work it at the same time?
Jarrell

[orsonroy]

I generally like to have the building on hand before I start slapping down sidings. That way, you're absolutely sure of clearances, and you can tell if the thing you dreamed up on paper really looks good in the flesh, BEFORE you get too far into the project!

[grandeman]

Model railroaders are always cramped for space. I'd have the building on hand or, at least, know it's dimensions. The hardshell and buildings are give and take once the track is down. That's one of the nice things about the Atlas software, it allows you to put popular buildings from different makers in to see if they fit when designing the track plan. The Walther's catalog also gives measurements on all their building kits. Sometimes it's tough to fit it all in on a shelf! Here's an example, the hardshell in the pic is cramped! It's only a few inches thick but looks fine when veiwed from the front. I almost didn't have room for it all!!! I'm glad I had the building on hand to fit it all in (it's just to the right in this pic).

[SpaceMouse]

I'm going to have the layout planned down to the structures before I build benchwork. I did it the other way with my current 4 x 8 layout and nothing fits. I'm making some wierd compromises and it is coming together, but I wished I'd known more before I started. IT is a lot easier to frame for a turntable if you know exactly where it is going then to cut away a mountain or redo the benchwork after the mainline is glued down to find another spot for it.

Take about an hour of your time and download the demo version of 3rd Planit. Run the tutorial for a little while to the end of the first section. Then think about planning.

[tstage]

Jarrell,

If it's any consolation, it's been a dilemma for me, too. This is my first layout so I'm learning all sorts of stuff. But I find myself in a Catch-22 situation: Both my final track and layout designs are contingent on one another. So, I find myself going back and forth on what and wheres and not getting along as fast on my layout as I would like. [sigh] It's somewhat intimidating to ponder the fact that decisions you make now will dictate or limit what you can or can NOT do on your current layout down the road.

What initially has helped or narrowed my field - I know you've already done this - is to determine what era I'm going to model. Now I know what can and cannot go on my layout. There's actually a sense of comfort in those sorts of "restrictions". (Or "boundaries" - if that sounds less confining to you.)

However, since I don't have a plethora of background RR knowledge and experience, I've had to rely on books. Even then, that gleaning has come fairly slowly. IMHO, even the best MRR design references still have some trouble talking to the newbie in plain terms, often using terminology and jargon without giving a very clear explanation and/or assuming you know more - or at least should.

Jarrell, as you stated in another post, don't feel like you have to get things done next month. The beauty of foam is that you can "temporarily" layout and hold down track fairly securely with track spikes. (I've been doing that for the past year.) You can try out all your own "hair-brained" ideas without having to commit to it. If you don't like the design: Pull up the spikes, rearrange the track in a different configuration, and tack it down again. When experimenting with a new technique or idea, use a piece a scrap foam to "hone your skills" first before trying it out on your benchtop.

I read recently that using cardboard footprints or temporary mock ups helps with both visualizing your space and, as orsonroy pointed out, making sure you have enough room for all your ideas. I still like and hold to the philosophy that "simpler is better". Jarrell, don't feel you have to cram every nook and cranny of your layout with "stuff". There's something beautiful about a layout that is uncluttered. That's what I've appreciated so much about Pelle Soeborg's articles in MR recently.

I also like Chip's suggestion about 3rd Planit and think the idea is worth your careful consideration. It would help with the "visualizing" aspect of seeing and testing out your "creation" (in 3D space) BEFORE building, thereby avoiding or removing the possibility of committing to a design that you wish you'd had better foresight on initially.

Tom

P.S. Jarrell, I think you're doing a TERRIFIC job so far on everything. [^][tup][tup][tup] You're going to end up with one nice layout when you're done.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

I generally like to have the building on hand before I start slapping down sidings. That way, you're absolutely sure of clearances, and you can tell if the thing you dreamed up on paper really looks good in the flesh, BEFORE you get too far into the project!

Ray, from what you and the others have said I think it's a good idea. I've never done this before so I'm having trouble visualizing things in 3D. I stand in that room and look at all that blue foam and I try to imagine what will go where and what it would look like, but right now all I see is blue foam.
Thanks for your input.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

Model railroaders are always cramped for space. I'd have the building on hand or, at least, know it's dimensions. The hardshell and buildings are give and take once the track is down. That's one of the nice things about the Atlas software, it allows you to put popular buildings from different makers in to see if they fit when designing the track plan. The Walther's catalog also gives measurements on all their building kits. Sometimes it's tough to fit it all in on a shelf! Here's an example, the hardshell in the pic is cramped! It's only a few inches thick but looks fine when veiwed from the front. I almost didn't have room for it all!!! I'm glad I had the building on hand to fit it all in (it's just to the right in this pic).

Thanks Grandeman, I think you're right.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to have the layout planned down to the structures before I build benchwork. I did it the other way with my current 4 x 8 layout and nothing fits. I'm making some wierd compromises and it is coming together, but I wished I'd known more before I started. IT is a lot easier to frame for a turntable if you know exactly where it is going then to cut away a mountain or redo the benchwork after the mainline is glued down to find another spot for it.

Take about an hour of your time and download the demo version of 3rd Planit. Run the tutorial for a little while to the end of the first section. Then think about planning.

Chip, I'm going to download the trial version right now. I sure don't want to be cutting on bench work. I can just imagine the headaches that would cause. The backdrop would probably come apart, and... no.. I don't even want to think about it.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell,

If it's any consolation, it's been a dilemma for me, too. This is my first layout so I'm learning all sorts of stuff. But I find myself in a Catch-22 situation: Both my final track and layout designs are contingent on one another. So, I find myself going back and forth on what and wheres and not getting along as fast on my layout as I would like. [sigh] It's somewhat intimidating to ponder the fact that decisions you make now will dictate or limit what you can or can NOT do on your current layout down the road.

What initially has helped or narrowed my field - I know you've already done this - is to determine what era I'm going to model. Now I know what can and cannot go on my layout. There's actually a sense of comfort in those sorts of "restrictions". (Or "boundaries" - if that sounds less confining to you.)

However, since I don't have a plethora of background RR knowledge and experience, I've had to rely on books. Even then, that gleaning has come fairly slowly. IMHO, even the best MRR design references still have some trouble talking to the newbie in plain terms, often using terminology and jargon without giving a very clear explanation and/or assuming you know more - or at least should.

Jarrell, as you stated in another post, don't feel like you have to get things done next month. The beauty of foam is that you can "temporarily" layout and hold down track fairly securely with track spikes. (I've been doing that for the past year.) You can try out all your own "hair-brained" ideas without having to commit to it. If you don't like the design: Pull up the spikes, rearrange the track in a different configuration, and tack it down again. When experimenting with a new technique or idea, use a piece a scrap foam to "hone your skills" first before trying it out on your benchtop.

I read recently that using cardboard footprints or temporary mock ups helps with both visualizing your space and, as orsonroy pointed out, making sure you have enough room for all your ideas. I still like and hold to the philosophy that "simpler is better". Jarrell, don't feel you have to cram every nook and cranny of your layout with "stuff". There's something beautiful about a layout that is uncluttered. That's what I've appreciated so much about Pelle Soeborg's articles in MR recently.

I also like Chip's suggestion about 3rd Planit and think the idea is worth your careful consideration. It would help with the "visualizing" aspect of seeing and testing out your "creation" (in 3D space) BEFORE building, thereby avoiding or removing the possibility of committing to a design that you wish you'd had better foresight on initially.

Tom

P.S. Jarrell, I think you're doing a TERRIFIC job so far on everything. [^][tup][tup][tup] You're going to end up with one nice layout when you're done.

"It's somewhat intimidating to ponder the fact that decisions you make now will dictate or limit what you can or can NOT do on your current layout down the road."

That really is kinda scary, it really is!

"even the best MRR design references still have some trouble talking to the newbie in plain terms, often using terminology and jargon without giving a very clear explanation and/or assuming you know more - or at least should."

I know what you mean, I've run across that too. There is no substitute for experience either.

"You can try out all your own "hair-brained" ideas without having to commit to it. "

I've got a bunch of those!

"I still like and hold to the philosophy that "simpler is better"

I have to resist the temptation to fill it up. At first I was thinking that the more I have the more switching I could do so the more interesting it would be. There must be a fine balance between too much and too little.

"You're going to end up with one nice layout when you're done"

Can you come back and work on these things after you're dead and gone? At the rate I'm going I'll never finish...[xx(] Hmmm.... a Ghost Train...
Seriously, as a newbie the temptation to rush it is very big. I've got to learn to go slow and smell the roses along the way. Maybe the fun is the journey and not so much the destination.
Thanks Tom for the advice.
Jarrell

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12
Can you come back and work on these things after you're dead and gone?

No, I'm afriad not...but that's an entirely different topic.

QUOTE:
At the rate I'm going I'll never finish...[xx(] Hmmm.... a Ghost Train...

Seriously, as a newbie the temptation to rush it is very big. I've got to learn to go slow and smell the roses along the way. Maybe the fun is the journey and not so much the destination.
Thanks Tom for the advice.
Jarrell

Yeah, I know what you mean. Even though some things have gone more slowly for me than I'd like, I have enjoyed the "journey" and the joy of learning about the history and what for's of RRing. That's been almost as interesting and intriguing as learning MRRing itself. My wife even enjoys me telling her some of the things I've learned. The commodary and helpfulness on the forum and the folks I've met at my LHSes has been another pleasant surprise.

Tom

[Medina1128]

This is my 2nd layout, but the first one that I've used foam for scenery on. This stuff is GREAT!! But, like you alluded to... It's not the destination, it IS the journey. And like I've heard on countless occasions, a model railroad IS never done. Enjoy your 'trip'.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: tstage: ...I read recently that using cardboard footprints or temporary mock ups helps with both visualizing your space and, as orsonroy pointed out, making sure you have enough room for all your ideas...

I agree that cardboard footprints would help, but I'd recommend going a bit further and making rough cardboard or foam mockups of the building in 3-D. This can either be based on a known building kit (working away from dimensions in Walthers, for example) or totally freelanced structures.

This not only helps ensure you have floor space for the industries, but helps in deciding whether a bulkier, or lower, or longer, etc structure would look better in that spot. Some even go as far as making xerox prints or photos of building sides, approx to scale, and glueing them on the cardboard mockups.

Making block buildings out of blue foam is fast and easy. A quick coat of tan or grey paint helps make them stand out against the sea of blue foam.

We're not talking good models here, but 3-D mockups as space guagers / takers. They can, of course, be left in place and used as you start operation and before you actually have time to build the perfect kit for that location.

Regards

Ed

[tstage]

Ed,

Thanks for bringing that up. That's what I had "in mind" by the term "termporary mockups" but I neglected to clarify that idea sufficiently. A quick mockup in 3D will do wonders. (I hadn't thought of doing it in foam. Hmmmm.) The 3D software package mentioned by Chip is another viable option.

Tom

[davekelly]

I use previous year's Walthers catalogs to make my cardboard foot prints. The Walther's structures listed have a rough drawing along with the dimensions. I cut out the foot print drawing (as well as the picture of the sturture) and glue them to a piece of cardboard/posterboard of the footprint size. For non-Walthers structures I just cut the picture out and glue it to the footprint. I usually make a set of these to some scale that I will use to draw the plan (usually the same scale as the track diagrams for Walthers track) and one set full size. Often times I'll sit there with several of these footprints, some track and a few pieces of rolling stock and just rearrange them on a table to see how it all fits. For some reason my mind doesn't translate scale drawings (either on paper or on the computer screen) to a visual image. Playing with the cardboard and track on a table helps me big time in picturing how a particular section will look.

Of course once actual track is being laid the plan always gets modified lol.

[jacon12]

So, I'm not as far along as I thought I was. I'm about to have a major slowdown while I figure out what goes where, what size it is etc. But, that's ok.. I think it's just part of it. I like the idea of the cardboard footprints. I have an old country store in mind I'd like to work in at the right place. I'll have to go measure it. The real one, I mean.
You know, when you think about it.. if this stuff was easy and everything just snapped together and was all paint-by-number, nobody would do it for long.
OH... I forgot the trackplan isn't done either.
Jarrell

[jwr_1986]

Since walther's lists all of the building dimensions in their catalog we find th building we would like to use and then make paper mock-ups so we can see if they work for us beofre the investment.

Jesse

[oleirish]

Jarrell: you seam to be on top of things,get the mill and other biuldings that will give you something to do while the glue is drying.[^]

OLE'IRISH

[dehusman]

I design the track first with minimal regard for the buildings. I rarely ever build a building as it looks on the box. 99% of my buildings are kitbashed, rearranged, partially or completely scratchbuilt. I just arrange the building to fit the space.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Jarrell,

Train guys never need "excuses" to buy kits. Go buy em' (because you can). You should have at least a couple of boxes full of cool kits that you NEED by now (I have six, think of it as steady employment........wait I already have a full time job). Get out there and do your part !!! Now is not the time to hesitate.

About the track or the buildings question. Don't go by what the modeling books say...Go look at the real thing. You don't want to limit your layout to what is available in kits or even to those dimensions (you can always change stuff around). Look at some photos of cool saw mills (google em' if nothing else) and see how the prototype did stuff. This might make some decisions for you, besides it will give you somethoing else to do while the glue dries.

While some might regard this approach as one of those over the top "prototype" things, the problems that you are having deciding what to do with your plan are precisely why people take this approach. If you find some cool protoype scenes, you can then adapt them to your plan and have the bonus of having stuff look more realistic because it is based off of something that actually existed....For sawmills there are lots of logging railroad books.....

BTW: I must say that you have injected a great sense of humor into this forum.....You could still have a career in front of you as a comedian with those facial expressions....The "are we having fun" photo is a classic....

[jacon12]

I can think of anything better to do than search for a nice sawmill while the glue dries. Some of those, what do you call it... laser kits... around $180.. those are NICE.
I'm gonna go broke in this hobby.. I can see it coming now. I may have to find a job just to support the habit.
Jarrell

[KKEIFE]

When I designed my layout I figured out all the sturctures I wanted and then went on line or looked in catalogues to find the dimension of each structure (very easy to get for Walthers structures at least) and plotted them on my graph paper version of the layout.

I t seems to work well although it seems like I need a little more room for each one when it goes on the layout as compared to how it looks on paper.


Ken

[Anonymous]

After 25 years of track plans,many trying to copy John Allan's G&D railroad,I've given up on the planning out part of model railroading.I did the room and lights then i put shelving around the outside walls at 48".I did a peninsula the same way leaving a 3' aisleway around it.This has given me a flat, chest-height layout which I can put my tracks down and run trains..
I found that this keeps me from wasting time and reams of graph paper drawing track plans.If I want to put in a building or change a siding or passing track it's a cinch and if I don't like it I can go back.This approach also inspired me to include backdrops and front facias as part of the basic setup,which tidies up the whole thing.
The down side is no changes in elevation-neither in track nor topography but ,boy,when you get some friends over to run it it's real fun to walk beside your train and run it up close!It also highlights DCC operation -high and low priority trains,way freights and passenger units all add to the fun!
I guess I'm saying "enough planning-get your trains rolling and have some fun!"

[tstage]

Jarrell,

I like the laser kits, too. American Model Builders makes quite a variety of nice kits. I have put together their interlocking tower, Dill's Market, and boxcar depot. Very nice quality stuff. Who made the sawmill you were refering to?

Tom

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CPCHARLIE

After 25 years of track plans,many trying to copy John Allan's G&D railroad,I've given up on the planning out part of model railroading.I did the room and lights then i put shelving around the outside walls at 48".I did a peninsula the same way leaving a 3' aisleway around it.This has given me a flat, chest-height layout which I can put my tracks down and run trains..
I found that this keeps me from wasting time and reams of graph paper drawing track plans.If I want to put in a building or change a siding or passing track it's a cinch and if I don't like it I can go back.This approach also inspired me to include backdrops and front facias as part of the basic setup,which tidies up the whole thing.
The down side is no changes in elevation-neither in track nor topography but ,boy,when you get some friends over to run it it's real fun to walk beside your train and run it up close!It also highlights DCC operation -high and low priority trains,way freights and passenger units all add to the fun!
I guess I'm saying "enough planning-get your trains rolling and have some fun!"

Charlie, I believe you're the first person to tell me about this approach. I'm wondering though, why does it rule out elevations?
Thanks for your input.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell,

I like the laser kits, too. American Model Builders makes quite a variety of nice kits. I have put together their interlocking tower, Dill's Market, and boxcar depot. Very nice quality stuff. Who made the sawmill you were refering to?

Tom

Tom, thanks for mentioning American Model.. I'll check out their website. I don't recall the maker of the sawmill I saw, I think it was in an MRR magazine, a small ad probably. You really wouldn't want to see something I've build from scratch or scratchbuilt from a kit. If I put one on my layout the city would come out and condemn it.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KKEIFE

When I designed my layout I figured out all the sturctures I wanted and then went on line or looked in catalogues to find the dimension of each structure (very easy to get for Walthers structures at least) and plotted them on my graph paper version of the layout.

I t seems to work well although it seems like I need a little more room for each one when it goes on the layout as compared to how it looks on paper.


Ken

Ken, I'm probably the only model railroader in the whole world that doesn't have a copy of Walther's catalog. Well, I think there is a very old issue here somewhere that I got from somewhere.
Thanks for your answer.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Hello Jarrell'thanks for your reply.There is no restriction on elevations'in fact all my benchwork is L-girder at 48" with 1x3 risers.I have found though that I can run trains with less lost cabooses and fewer derailments,etc when I don't have that third dimention to cause problems.
I can set a train running on it's own then take out my wayfreight and do switching and set-outs while dodging the mainline run.When friends come over it's a bit more complicated but we have fun .
I'm working on Tab-on-car forwarding to give everyone a job to do but I'm not sure how it's going to go over ...Anybody tried tab-on-car?
Regards,Charlie.

[tstage]

Jarrell,

Sorry, I should have given you the AMB web link while I was mentioning it:

http://www.laserkit.com/laserkit.htm

They are detailed kits but are fairly straightforward to put together. Like any kit, it just takes time. I think you would be pleased with the variety and quality of their kits. If you want to see what they look like firsthand, you can see the ones I mentioned earlier on my link at the bottom of the post.

Tom

[Anonymous]

its an interesting question! The prototype does it both ways. In many cases a spur is built to serve an existing or planned building or area.....but the opposite also happens as enterprises build on or near existing spur locations and available land. I think a balance of both approaches is good. Many 'problem areas' have led to some of my favorite modeling scenes. Just remember there is no magic formula to solving building locations etc.....the builders are just trying to make a buck with the land available. Thats why you see odd shaped
structures in cramped high value areas...the land is to valuable to waste.

[johncolley]

I'll see you and raise you one better. I built a 2'x8' yard throat on 2" foam with roadbeds, track and some ballasting before I realized I had made NO provision for operating all the turnouts! Dumb S..T! On my new one I am cutting all the holes and gluing all the plywood(pre-drilled for the tortoises) plates in level with the top of the foam deck. Have already installed 2 machines and tested them with roadbed and mainline #10's in place. Wow, this model railroading stuff is an endless learning curve, eh?