Elevate in stages?

[jacon12]

One of the features I'd like to have is a logging operation. Below is just one idea and I'd like to know what the experienced here think. The green track starts at 0 inches and climbs to 8 inches on the lower part of the dogbone. The circular 'mainline' below it goes through a tunnell through the hillside that would cover that corner of the layout.
I believe this would be about a 4% grade if it were to steadily climb. I'd like to use Woodland Scenics risers and I 'think' they're made to rise 2 inches so if I understand this right I would use foam 'shelves' or steps that would steadily increase the height to the 8 inch level. Is that the way it works?
On the drawing here 1 block = 1 foot.
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter and if you see any way to improve it or somewhere I'm going wrong please say so.
Jarrell

[rrinker]

The WS 4% rises actually take you up to 4" over their length. If you go all WS, you can use their risers and stacl the next set of iinclines on top. Or just use a couple of pieces of 2" foam, it's cheaper. Run the first set of inclines. Then put in the elevated foam. Put the next set of inclines on this.

--Randy

[ereimer]

sounds like you've got it figured out . also the track plan is starting to shape up nicely , keep up the good work !

[tstage]

Jarrell,

I like Randy's suggestions. If you curve the track as you negotiate your hill, you can "shorten" the linear distance it will take you to get to your 8" rise. The downside, of course, is that it makes the effort harder on your locomotive. But then...a curved and meandering track might allow you to lessen your overall grade.

Have you decided what kind of locomotive you are going to use for your logging operation? A Shay would look terrific. IMHO, I'd stay away from the Rivarossi's. They look terrific but are hit and miss on performance. I believe the Bachmann's are reliable ones.

FYI: I'm not seeing the posted layout from my end. All I see is the proverbial "broken box"...Never mind, it's working fine now.

Tom

P.S. Okay...something funky is going on because now I'm not seeing it again. Hmmmmm This is really weird. Every time I comment it flips back the other way...

[SpaceMouse]

4% for your mainline is pretty steep. I was just reading today in Armstrong that a 1% grade cuts your towing power to 1/3 that of level ground. I have a 3.7% layout and my small old-time steamers can only get a caboose up.


Logging, huh?

This is the site that got me going on a logging layout. Scroll down to the pictures. The tutorial on building a layout is pretty good too.

http://www.cooncreek-and-tumbleweed-springs.co.uk/

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

The WS 4% rises actually take you up to 4" over their length. If you go all WS, you can use their risers and stacl the next set of iinclines on top. Or just use a couple of pieces of 2" foam, it's cheaper. Run the first set of inclines. Then put in the elevated foam. Put the next set of inclines on this.

--Randy

Thanks Randy, using the elevated foam is probably what I'm going to do . I appreciate it!
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

sounds like you've got it figured out . also the track plan is starting to shape up nicely , keep up the good work !

I still have the feeling I'm groping around in the dark, but maybe there's a little light at the end of the tunnel.
Thanks for the support!
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell,

I like Randy's suggestions. If you curve the track as you negotiate your hill, you can "shorten" the linear distance it will take you to get to your 8" rise. The downside, of course, is that it makes the effort harder on your locomotive. But then...a curved and meandering track might allow you to lessen your overall grade. Something to think about.

Have you decided what kind of locomotive you are going to use for your logging operation? A Shay would look terrific. IMHO, I'd stay away from the Rivarossi's. They look terrific but are hit and miss on performance. I believe the Bachmann's are reliable ones.

FYI: I'm not seeing the posted layout from my end. All I see is the proverbial "broken box"...Never mind, it's working fine now.

Tom

P.S. Okay...something funky is going on because now I'm not seeing it again. Hmmmmm This is really weird. Every time I comment it flips back the other way...

Tom, I know it's going to be a Shay and I know that I'll be real happy to get 2 or 3 cars up the incline. Thanks for the heads up on the Bachman!
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

4% for your mainline is pretty steep. I was just reading today in Armstrong that a 1% grade cuts your towing power to 1/3 that of level ground. I have a 3.7% layout and my small old-time steamers can only get a caboose up.


Logging, huh?

This is the site that got me going on a logging layout. Scroll down to the pictures. The tutorial on building a layout is pretty good too.

http://www.cooncreek-and-tumbleweed-springs.co.uk/

Chip, I may have to lower my expectations on the climb. I'd like to one day have a shay and be able to get a couple of cars up and down the hill, but we'll have to wait and see.
Is the Cooncreek not beautiful! Thanks for the link!
Jarrell

[tstage]

Jarrell, what if you had a 2% grade going up the right side of the layout, have it level off over the bottom dog-bone, then circle it around and have another 2% grade up the same side but going the opposite direction. (Course, that would probably necessitate pushing the mainline out more towards the front of the benchtop on the right side to do that.) Your logging camp could culminate up at the top right corner. (Jarrell, didn't you mention at some point about thinking of putting a tunnel at that spot anyhow?)

Anywho, just throwing out ideas. Consider my suggestions worth what you're paying for them....

Tom

[SpaceMouse]

Ihaven't actually drawn it up yet, but I have an idea for a layout that will climb 16 inches to a second level. The key is that the mainline cuts in and out of tunnels on its climb so that there is only one mainline visible in each scene. I still have a lot to work out, but you don't have to show all your track. You can climb without having a spagetti layout.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell, what if you had a 2% grade going up the right side of the layout, have it level off over the bottom dog-bone, then circle it around and have another 2% grade up the same side but going the opposite direction. (Course, that would probably necessitate pushing the mainline out more towards the front of the benchtop on the right side to do that.) Your logging camp could culminate up at the top right corner. (Jarrell, didn't you mention at some point about thinking of putting a tunnel at that spot anyhow?)

Anywho, just throwing out ideas. Consider my suggestions worth what you're paying for them....

Tom
Hmmmm.... I think I understand that. Now where would the loggin' rails depart from the main line... at the upper right corner?
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Ihaven't actually drawn it up yet, but I have an idea for a layout that will climb 16 inches to a second level. The key is that the mainline cuts in and out of tunnels on its climb so that there is only one mainline visible in each scene. I still have a lot to work out, but you don't have to show all your track. You can climb without having a spagetti layout.

Are you going to incorporate this into the next one you're building?
Jarrell

[tstage]

Jarrell,

Here's what I was trying to convey:



It may not be exactly what you are looking to accomplish but it would allow you a more gradual grade on your layout. There would be a short tunnel (bottom right) where Level 1 would pass over the main then continue (in the reverse direcion ) meandering up to Level 2. At Level 2, you could either add a nice size yard with a turntable by crossing above the main again, or loop it around for the trip back down.

For what it's worth...

Tom

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Ihaven't actually drawn it up yet, but I have an idea for a layout that will climb 16 inches to a second level. The key is that the mainline cuts in and out of tunnels on its climb so that there is only one mainline visible in each scene. I still have a lot to work out, but you don't have to show all your track. You can climb without having a spagetti layout.

Are you going to incorporate this into the next one you're building?
Jarrell

yes

[selector]

I really like Tom's idea, Jarrell. In fact, everyone's input is first class, if I may judge it so.

I will respectfully suggest a whole different approach; switchbacks. You could just as easily use the old mining and logging solution of zig-zagging the trains up the side of steep mountains to get up to the work-site. The advantages to that solution is that you get to see your trains in front of you all the time, and you can reach them if they do funny things on you.

By the way, I too, am very happy to see your method and your discipline in all of this. I am very much a fan!!

[jwar]

[#ditto] on all the above suggestions. Perhaps a log landing in the upper right and lower corner. One thing that really jumps out to my eye, this is a fantastic layout for a long tall tressel.
BTW keep in mind cleaning track when considering tunnels. This layout will look great...John

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell,

Here's what I was trying to convey:



It may not be exactly what you are looking to accomplish but it would allow you a more gradual grade on your layout. There would be a short tunnel (bottom right) where Level 1 would pass over the main then continue (in the reverse direcion ) meandering up to Level 2. At Level 2, you could either add a nice size yard with a turntable by crossing above the main again, or loop it around for the trip back down.

For what it's worth...

Tom

"For what it's worth"...
Tom, it's worth a lot and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. I wonder about 2 things though... first, is this way over my skill level? Maybe not if I take my time and try to do it right. Second, if I put in those longer 45 degree angled pieces in the 3 inside corners of the benchwork, will I still be able to reach things, especially in the ends of the dogbone? That middle inside corner (upper right corner of the layout) won't be a problem, I don't think. I have access to the extreme left side of the upper end and also the very bottom side of the lower end.
Hmmm... let me think this over. You know, the great thing about it is nobody is holding a gun on me and telling me it has to be done next month!

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

I really like Tom's idea, Jarrell. In fact, everyone's input is first class, if I may judge it so.

I will respectfully suggest a whole different approach; switchbacks. You could just as easily use the old mining and logging solution of zig-zagging the trains up the side of steep mountains to get up to the work-site. The advantages to that solution is that you get to see your trains in front of you all the time, and you can reach them if they do funny things on you.

By the way, I too, am very happy to see your method and your discipline in all of this. I am very much a fan!!

Do I have room for switchbacks?
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwar

[#ditto] on all the above suggestions. Perhaps a log landing in the upper right and lower corner. One thing that really jumps out to my eye, this is a fantastic layout for a long tall tressel.
BTW keep in mind cleaning track when considering tunnels. This layout will look great...John

John, I hadn't thought of that. Just how DO people clean tracks in tunnels? Lift off mountains?
Jarrell

[rrinker]

Over your skill level? After seeing the job you did on the benchwork and backdrop, I don't think so. But the idea would be to build it in steps or phases, not try to do it all at once. Do the bottom level first, put the turnouts in for the branch but don't built that yet. Do some scenery over on the side that won't have anything above it. Then start workign on building up the grade for the branch. Just follow a logical set up steps and you can have trains running on one part while you continue working on the next step - that way you aren't doing 100% tracklaying, then 100% scenery, but rather switching back and forth, at least for me I find that more interesting.

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwar

[#ditto] on all the above suggestions. Perhaps a log landing in the upper right and lower corner. One thing that really jumps out to my eye, this is a fantastic layout for a long tall tressel.
BTW keep in mind cleaning track when considering tunnels. This layout will look great...John

John, I hadn't thought of that. Just how DO people clean tracks in tunnels? Lift off mountains?
Jarrell

I guess you could, but I leave the bench work open so it can be reached from underneath. What do you do if a train derails underground?

[SpaceMouse]

Under Tater Mountain:

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Jarrell,

I like Randy's suggestions. If you curve the track as you negotiate your hill, you can "shorten" the linear distance it will take you to get to your 8" rise. The downside, of course, is that it makes the effort harder on your locomotive. But then...a curved and meandering track might allow you to lessen your overall grade. Something to think about.

Have you decided what kind of locomotive you are going to use for your logging operation? A Shay would look terrific. IMHO, I'd stay away from the Rivarossi's. They look terrific but are hit and miss on performance. I believe the Bachmann's are reliable ones.

FYI: I'm not seeing the posted layout from my end. All I see is the proverbial "broken box"...Never mind, it's working fine now.

Tom

P.S. Okay...something funky is going on because now I'm not seeing it again. Hmmmmm This is really weird. Every time I comment it flips back the other way...

Tom, I know it's going to be a Shay and I know that I'll be real happy to get 2 or 3 cars up the incline. Thanks for the heads up on the Bachman!
Jarrell

[bogp40]

Jarrel,
The track plan from tstage need not have the swichback to gain the clearance. If you start at one dogbone end following the backdrop you will have 18-20' of track to gain 4" of min clearance. The 8" of climb is not nec. Even if 1/2 of one end is covered side acess could be made w/ a removable facia panel. Now you would only have about 2 1/2% grade. This way you won't clutter the mainline track area an also cover the opposite curved end. You would most likely want to keep one end clear for additional sidings/ industries and a small town. Remember that having a branchline w/ log or coal you will need space for lower yard tracks to take the cars to. The couple tracks you origionally showed and are on tstage's plan can be extended or added to to form more of a lower yard. You may also want to consider a crossover/ passing track to change direction (reversing block of coarse- but easily done). Keep hammering out the possibilities and ideas, I think your getting closer to "the plan".
Bob K.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Under Tater Mountain:

well, back to plan B I guess. I haven't yet made an access hole to get at a derailment in a tunnel. But, I guess thats ok for now 'cause I don't know where to put the hole 'cause I don't know where the tunnel will be..... yet. Boy, this is complicated!
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Robert Knapp

Jarrel,
The track plan from tstage need not have the swichback to gain the clearance. If you start at one dogbone end following the backdrop you will have 18-20' of track to gain 4" of min clearance. The 8" of climb is not nec. Even if 1/2 of one end is covered side acess could be made w/ a removable facia panel. Now you would only have about 2 1/2% grade. This way you won't clutter the mainline track area an also cover the opposite curved end. You would most likely want to keep one end clear for additional sidings/ industries and a small town. Remember that having a branchline w/ log or coal you will need space for lower yard tracks to take the cars to. The couple tracks you origionally showed and are on tstage's plan can be extended or added to to form more of a lower yard. You may also want to consider a crossover/ passing track to change direction (reversing block of coarse- but easily done). Keep hammering out the possibilities and ideas, I think your getting closer to "the plan".
Bob K.

"Even if 1/2 of one end is covered side acess could be made w/ a removable facia panel."

That's an idea! The bottom large section of the dogbone is facing a wall only about 18 inches away (enough for me) so I could even leave the facia entirely off that side and I would have access under the hill on that area. In other words if that side had no facia you wouldn't know it unless you stuck your head around to look. Or you could put up a temporary/removable one.
Good idea Bob.

"would most likely want to keep one end clear for additional sidings/ industries and a small town. Remember that having a branchline w/ log or coal you will need space for lower yard tracks to take the cars to. The couple tracks you origionally showed and are on tstage's plan can be extended or added to to form more of a lower yard. You may also want to consider a crossover/ passing track to change direction (reversing block of coarse- but easily done)"....

Right. I want the extra sidings and I surely want a small town. I'd like to work in the crossover, maybe in the long sections around the letters B or D in my drawing.
Whew, I gotta lot of learnin' to do!
Thanks for the ideas Bob!
Jarrell