To DC or Not DC, That is the Question!

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joeh19012

WANTED: Advice about power-routing turnouts (the older Walthers/Shinohara code 83 ones).

I've been reading A LOT (too much, probably) about layout construction, turnouts, flextrack, and so on so that I can actually get started putting my layout together. Over the years, I've had a plan professionally drawn, modified it with CAD, bought turnouts, etc.

I now find that a good portion of my equipment is out of date, relative to the available technology. Instead of twin coil switch machines, the Tortoise stall motor is being recommended. DCC has altered the way manufacturers supply goods and how modelers purchase them. Still, I want that "dream railroad..."

Anyway, one source I read (gmpullman) said that he ran DCC without any problems using Walthers/Shinohara power-routing turnouts. Other sources (wiringforccc.com) give extensive directions on how to modify these turnouts so they'll work with DCC. Unfortunately, those modifications come with many cautions.

I have 17 of those turnouts, and I really don't want to spend my time modifying them--I'd rather install them. I don't mind cutting gaps in the rails, around the frogs, jumpering rails, or cutting gaps when turnouts are connected frog to frog. I would appreciate any advice from anyone who is successfully using DCC with these turnouts, without rebuilding them using the circuit board ties and retro fitting half-joiners onto the points and closure rails.

I have the original 1990 version of Andy Sperandeo's "Wiring" book, so I have the info on cutting gaps. What else do I need to do? Thanks, thanks, thanks.

See the site http://www.wiringfordcc.com for info on turnouts. But REALLY you don't have to worry about it (other than the same gaps you need for ANY two-rail wiring, DC or DCC) IF you are careful when running - with the power-routing turnouts like that, approach against the set route will result in a short when the loco crosses the gaps. So just don;t run against the turnouts and you'll be ok [:D] The other potential problem is when the point rail and the adjacent stock rail are not at the same polarity - any equipment with metal wheels out of gauge can also cause a short by touching both of the rails at the same time - the tread on the stock rail and the back rubbing the point rail. This is the reason for making the modification suggested on Wiring for DCC.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I have debated back and forth on this with myself for the past two years as I built my current layout. The track and wiring are complete and it is as DCC friendly as I can make it. So was my previous layout. But there is only one of me, the layout is relatively small (9' X 18' modules in a rectangle) and I only run one train at a time. I realize the advantages of sound, lighting, etc. that DCC offers, but like some others, the cost and the effort don't seem to be worth it, at least for now.

My compromise for the last layout and this one is the Crest (formerly Aristo) Train Engineer radio control system. It gives me mobilty for following the train and switching movements and has a momentum feature but doesn't require more that five minutes of wiring to connect and requires no decoders, etc.

Just another point of view,,,


John Timm

[joeh19012]

WANTED: Advice about power-routing turnouts (the older Walthers/Shinohara code 83 ones).

I've been reading A LOT (too much, probably) about layout construction, turnouts, flextrack, and so on so that I can actually get started putting my layout together. Over the years, I've had a plan professionally drawn, modified it with CAD, bought turnouts, etc.

I now find that a good portion of my equipment is out of date, relative to the available technology. Instead of twin coil switch machines, the Tortoise stall motor is being recommended. DCC has altered the way manufacturers supply goods and how modelers purchase them. Still, I want that "dream railroad..."

Anyway, one source I read (gmpullman) said that he ran DCC without any problems using Walthers/Shinohara power-routing turnouts. Other sources (wiringforccc.com) give extensive directions on how to modify these turnouts so they'll work with DCC. Unfortunately, those modifications come with many cautions.

I have 17 of those turnouts, and I really don't want to spend my time modifying them--I'd rather install them. I don't mind cutting gaps in the rails, around the frogs, jumpering rails, or cutting gaps when turnouts are connected frog to frog. I would appreciate any advice from anyone who is successfully using DCC with these turnouts, without rebuilding them using the circuit board ties and retro fitting half-joiners onto the points and closure rails.

I have the original 1990 version of Andy Sperandeo's "Wiring" book, so I have the info on cutting gaps. What else do I need to do? Thanks, thanks, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone use R/C such as Aristo HO Train Engineer or Rail Lynx? Hoping for some encouraging words electricity is something I just don't get.
Thanks for any help!

[Anonymous]

Stay with DC, old trains (like my 1979 rivrossi 4-8-8-4) are hard to get into. Believe me
I repair my own trains.

[Bikerdad]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Martin Mika

I am putting together my layout in N scale, I have no experience with DCC, and I am wondering how much more difficult, if at all, and more costly it would be to do it in N.
Loyout will be a 20'X6' dogbone, and I have about 20 locos: mostly kato, lifelike, and Atlas
Any advice would be appreciated. Oh and BTW, I can spend up to about $500.

I'm assuming that the $500 is for the DCC. Your best value would be to get a Digitrax Zephyr ($160 or so), a UR90 IR panel ($40) , a UT4 throttle ($70), an autoreversing module ($25, if you have a reversing loop), and spend the rest for decoders for your favorite locos. If decoders are above and beyond the $500, then consider the Lenz or NCE systems in addition to Digitrax. One $$$ question is how important is going wireless with the throttles to you?

If the $500 is for the whole shebang, you can get anywhere from 4 to 12 decoders out of the remaining balance, depending on your desires in decoders. If you don't have a dedicated yard switcher, but you do want one for DCC, then scamper over to Feather River Trains (www.featherrivertrains.com) and snag an Atlas VO1000 that is factory equipped with a decoder. If that's too stiff, you can wait and after you've done a few simpler decoder installations, do a different switcher.

N Scale decoders have a street price anywhere from $15 up to $60. Most of the PnP/drop-ins run $25-$30 on the street. Basic 2 function wired decoders are around $15-20.

I hope this helps, if you have any more questions regarding N Scale, mosey over to www.nscale.net and the friendly folks there will be glad to help you out. [8D]

BD - 10 Decoderized N scale locos and climbing...

[gmpullman]

Antonio...
When I started building my layout about 8 years ago I decided to go with the Walthers code 83 (Shinohara) because of the extensive catalog of switch types available. I admit, I went a little crazy with cross-overs, double slips, etc. and my track plan evolved into a pretty complicated mess... When it came to operation I was content with letting two trains run on the double track and as you can imagine, it became pretty boring very fast.
When I started playing with DCC and I didn't have to concern myself with "blocks & cabs" it has re-invigorated my interest in the railroad again! OPERATION is truly what it should be. Just like real crews, I only have to concern myself with route selection and I can move any locomotive / train ANYWHERE I want it to go. That, for me, has opened up a whole new world of operational possibilities and I'm having FUN again!
As an added bonus, it seems to me that the dozen or so DCC converted locomotives run better than they ever have! I only have about 75 more to do and I'll be in DCC heaven!

[AntonioFP45]

GMPullman,

Wow! Impressive and very encouraging! One of the issues that had kept me from building an operations oriented layout was the intimidating thought of installing DC cabs. When I read about DCC in 2003 and a friend gave me a demo, I had a good feeling and am looking forward to a layout.

[Anonymous]

If you have one loco, definitely stick with DC, especially if you are testing your MRR interest. DCC is great if you have more than one loco or have some friends over to run the layout.

[Anonymous]

Here's a question... for a one loco layout that is going to be in a coffee table... Would I need the extra cost of DCC? Or would DC or some other system work the same/better for less money? This layout is going to be a test to see if I'm a enthuaist or a modeler, so the cheaper the better. I'm thinking the layout is going to be a loop (maybe with a passing lane eventually?) Maybe a passanger "scenic" look, try and build some mountains around it or at least one big one in the middle. Anyway, What do you all think about the power?

[Anonymous]

If you build your layout in DC now, you can convert it later, you can take advantage of your DC blocks, combine a few and create power districts, this will help your current on the mainline when you have several engines in a consist, and still give you precise control while starting and stopping switchers, or running several trains...

To others reading, don't just jump into DCC at a cost you can afford, there's a reason it's cheaper... that's because it is "cheaper", I started with an Atlas commander, good price getting started, poor performance, ok if you have a small layout and a couple of engines.

I'll be upgrading to a Digitrax soon, maybe e-bay will help with the Atlas commander

[gmpullman]

I recently got a Digitrax Radio Chief at a really good price from a friend who is, sadly, scrapping his layout. I had tossed around the DCC Idea for my fairly extensive sized HO layout. I had been using SIX DC cabs and all the rotary switches, etc.
Operating had become so much of a hassle that it wasn't FUN anymore.
Just last night I thought I'd try an experiment where I bundled all 6 cab feeds into one BIG wirenut and fed them all from the single Digitrax command station. I use common rail so wired the other side to that... WOW! I played... (sorry, Operated) well into the wee hours of the morning! I can honestly say I've never had so much fun on my layout!!!
I was running trains into sidings and crossovers that I'd rarely, if ever, used because of the "Cab control" hassles!
Mind you, this is just a temporary tryout. I am going to divide the layout into 8 power districts and add just one more booster.
I have code 83 power routing Shinohara turnouts and I didn't have a single glitch with shorts... even through a gang of three double slips that I have at the Union Station throat!
I am the latest DCC convert! I'll never go back to plain 'ol DC! I've installed about 10 decoders in various P2K locomotives (they were due for tune ups anyway) and I can do one in about a half hour now... no problem!
I have a few Broadway engines with sound and the DCC makes them come alive!!! Haven't figured out all the CV stuff yet, but in time... An added bonus is seeing all my passenger trains with constant lighted interiors!
Well, so much for my $.02 but in short... the FUN VALUE is well worth the DCC expense!
Thanks for listening! Ed

[Anonymous]

I am starting to put together the pieces for my first layout in 3 decades and after some research I decided to go with DCC. Price was an inital consideration, I was going to purchace a MRC Duelpack transformer of of eBay but they go for almost half what the cost of a new one is. Why would I want to pay $80.00 for a top quality DC pack when I can start in DCC for $75 (Bachman system) ?

This weekend I am going to visit Davis Trains and March 12 there is a Train Show in Cincinnati where I hope to find a little nicer system at only a little more cost.

[rrinker]

You need a brand of DCC system that supports it - not all do. The non-DCC loco will run on address 00. Usually top speed is lsower than the same loco on regular DC. Also, the motor will 'sing' from the square wave signal, more at slow speed, less at top speed. Different motors react different ways - Athearn Blue Box type are usually the loudest, mainly because the motor magnets are loosely installed. High quality coreless motors as found on some precision locos are a definite no-no - those WILL quickly burn up.
As for the effect on DCC locos - the analog operation works by stretching the '0' bit of the DCC signal. The effect of this is slowing the data rate of packet transmissions. On a large club layout, this will likely result in noticeable delays in command response, if a lot of locos are in operation. On a smaller layout with 5 or so locos running? You'll probably never notice a difference.

--Randy

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PatDowd

Matt:

Our club went -- reluctantly -- with the Digitrax system (we had had another system that was difficult to impossible to figure out, i.e., code) and we have never looked back.

We regularly run non DCC locos along with the DCC locos and it gives us all the flexibility in the world.

Jump into DCC -- you'll be glad you did.

And as others have said, start with one loco a month to add the chip.

Even with a small layout (our club's N Scale Layout is 2 by 6) we have DCC so two operators have the run of the layout.

Good luck!

Pat

What is the key to being able to run both DCC and non DCC locs at the same time? Are you limited to one non DCC loco i.e one 00 address. What is the effect on the DCC locos

[Anonymous]

I am putting together my layout in N scale, I have no experience with DCC, and I am wondering how much more difficult, if at all, and more costly it would be to do it in N.
Loyout will be a 20'X6' dogbone, and I have about 20 locos: mostly kato, lifelike, and Atlas
Any advice would be appreciated. Oh and BTW, I can spend up to about $500.

[Anonymous]

Matt:

Our club went -- reluctantly -- with the Digitrax system (we had had another system that was difficult to impossible to figure out, i.e., code) and we have never looked back.

We regularly run non DCC locos along with the DCC locos and it gives us all the flexibility in the world.

Jump into DCC -- you'll be glad you did.

And as others have said, start with one loco a month to add the chip.

Even with a small layout (our club's N Scale Layout is 2 by 6) we have DCC so two operators have the run of the layout.

Good luck!

Pat

[Anonymous]

As always, gang: Thank you fot the input! I know I can rely on this site to help.

Matt

[nswgr1855]

I still prefer DC. See my web page for some alternative ideas on DC operation.

http://www.angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html

[nswgr1855]

QUOTE: Originally posted by William North

Wow! I never expected this much input to my delema. Thanks, you' ve really given some good debate to both sides of the question. I've been an Electrician for 39 years (39 years!?!?!?!?!? HOLY CRAP.) Since pulling wire is no big deal to me, I think I'll go with the terminal box idea, and give a serious look at DCC. I may even split up the layout, for both (for now) and work my way into a Full DCC operation Down the road. That's the great thing about this hobby; It's flexible, and no ones layout is the same.

From the forests of Michigan, Thanks again,
Bill[:)]

[Anonymous]

Wow! I never expected this much input to my delema. Thanks, you' ve really given some good debate to both sides of the question. I've been an Electrician for 39 years (39 years!?!?!?!?!? HOLY CRAP.) Since pulling wire is no big deal to me, I think I'll go with the terminal box idea, and give a serious look at DCC. I may even split up the layout, for both (for now) and work my way into a Full DCC operation Down the road. That's the great thing about this hobby; It's flexible, and no ones layout is the same.

From the forests of Michigan, Thanks again,
Bill[:)]

[rrinker]

Not really - there's no real reason to have DCC power districts as small as DC loco control blocks - the idea is really to prevent one short from killing the entire layout. I have a double-track loop with yard, it will have a total of three power districts, outer loop, inner loop, and yard/sidings. If I was doing this as DC, each loop would be 3-4 blocks, 3 being the minimum to run 2 trains, 4 or more being better. Plus another 2-3 blocks for the yard and sidings so industries could be worked whie the yard engine is classifying cars. So we're talking 10-12 blocks for DC, vs 3 for DCC power districts.
Plus NO toggle switches and the only gaps you need are between the power districts.
Until you add signalling and detection - then you need a lot of gaps and feeders, not a lot of long runs back to the control panel.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

And for what it is worth - IMO DCC wiring is only easier if you have only one block - then the "all it takes is two wire theory" works. If you have multiple blocks (as is required for power management/ circuit breaker protection) you will wire just as much as you do in DC.

[Anonymous]

I recently returned to the hobby, and after reading the pros/cons about DCC/DC I went with DCC (zephyr) The inital cost isn't that bad $150.00 and $15.00-$20.00 per decoder in the long run. There is a certain pleasure of "calling up" the loco you want to move by entering it's cab number sending it on it's route, then doing it again to another one.
The most locos I have had running by myself is 3, 2 on the mainlines and 1 in the yard doing switching.

If you could wire up blocks, wiring in a decoder isn't hard.

Steve

[mikebonellisr]

It will be money well spent.Though you could use that money to buy scenery,rolling stock,or even another engine or two I think you will enjoy operating your rr more with DCC

[Anonymous]

PRRMan - as a recent DCC convert I feel your pain - DCC definitely is a significant investment above and beyond the DC equipment that most of us start out which. Perhaps more importantly is the opportunity cost - that $600 could be used elswhere on the layout.

The question you have to ask - as you did - is it worth the cost? the answer is not universally yes.

As others have noted the costs do add up:
DCC system - additional and wireless throttles are significant extra costs
power shield
decoders
installation labor for problem installs - it pays to be a tinkerer - because you have to be very comfortable dissasembling/reassembling engines etc, and something WILL break - trust me - some engines require resistors for the lights - some require milling of weights
trial and error factor - the equipment you lose while learning how not to do things the wrong way.

So for those considering the switch make sure you have a realistic view of the cost vs the benefits of the conversion.

[jkeaton]

OK, a contrarian view. If you're only going to run a couple of trains at a time, perhaps mostly with only yourself as operator, PRRman, and you have a comfort level with straight DC wiring and operating the necessary control panel (especially when it's as simple as 8 to 10 blocks), and a collection of locomotives some of which may be difficult to convert - then why spend the extra $600? It would be like buying a fully loaded Chevy Suburban when all you've ever needed or wanted in a vehicle you can find in a Chevy Cavalier. There's nothing wrong, and everything right, about sticking with a proven technology that you understand and can afford. Model railroading is a hobby, after all, not a test of oneupmanship or who has the most "toys".

However, one other consideration that I haven't seen mentioned goes back to the question of how many operators your new layout will have. If it's mostly just you, go DC.
If you're going to have friends, children, or grandchildren over, though, it's a lot easier for them to cope with a DCC system, as there's no block switches to worry about and explain.

Jim

[BRVRR]

PRRMan,
Most of the high points have been covered already.
I made the switch to DCC two years ago with a Digitrax Zephyr. It has performed as advertised since it was installed. Installation took about 5-minutes and I was running an analog loco.
If at all possible, get out there and look at the different systems available. Go to a few train shows and talk to the vendors. Most will have a demonstrator set up so you can handle the throttles and test the reactions of a locomotive on the track.
Most of the starter systems out there from Atlas/Lenz/Digitrax etc. are full featured and expandable with readily available components. I would stay away from MRC since their systems, at least up to now, have been stand alone and not expandable. They also have limited capability. MRC promises the newest system will be expanded, however. Look them over though. They might be just what you need.
Decoders are cheaper in bulk. Buy 5 or more at a time and you can get a basic decoder for $11.00 - $12.00. Six function decoders in bulk run about $20.00 each. If you have a lot of F7s or steamers, a basic Digitrax DH123 will give you motor control and directional lights, as will many of the other 'basic' decoders.
Look over what is available. Visit Tony's Train Exchange, Litchfield Station, and Loy's Toys on the Internet. All of them have explanations of DCC, comparisons of the various products and helpful hints for building a DCC layout, installing decoders in locomotives and much more.
Since you are building a new layout, I recommend you think long and hard about DCC. The cost differential isn't as great as you might think.
You will never regret the change-over.
There are pictures of my Zephyr control system on my web site. The link is in my signature. Once on site, pu***he 'Layout' Button.
Good luck whatever your decision.

[Anonymous]

DIgitrax will control all your locomotives. You will find this to be far easier on your topology (wiring table) than old style DC blocks.