To DC or Not DC, That is the Question!

[Anonymous]

I'm building a new layout. It's 18 x 8, double track main line, several passing sidings & some industrial spurs. I was considering converting my 15 engines to DCC, etc. Here's the thing: I don't mind the wiring involved w/ the old DC block system. It's what I've had for 25 years. I used to enjoy making sure certain blocks were on or off, along w/ switch points in the right position.

My humble layout will have eight switches, and if I go the DC/block method, probably 8-10 blocks...

I understand the advantages of DCC - you run the trains, not the track. If I had a huge complex layout, I'd definitely go for it. Is it me, though, or is it hard to justify the $300.00 investment of a new DCC powerpack (I would get the Zephyr) and another $300 to equip my locos? That $600+ could go for more buildings, rolling stock, locos. Plus, I'd lose a lot of modeling time putting decoders in my fleet (some engines are 30 years old).

I'm just looking for some guidance before I start laying track down next weekend.

Thanks for the help!

[Anonymous]

PRRMan , after you switch to DDC . you will find it much easier to contol your trains. I am using an Digitrax Zephyr on a 9 ft by 9 ft HO layout. I have had as many as five trains running on the same track. , To me swittching to DCC makes small layouts fun again especialy if you run tow or more trains at the same time. I had an HO 4 X 6 layout with to cabs. It was next impossible to run two trains by one person which my case. The ease of wiring alone is reason to go DCC. I am diased to Digitrax becuse it is expandable.

John

[Anonymous]

If you are not into sound or anything other than running your trains and not track, there are decoders out there for 10-15 bucks apiece that are excellent. Also, I have seen the Zephyr complete system going for 130 bucks. You can add a couple of your existing DC throttles and run 3 trains at once without having to switch addresses, etc.

Believe me, once you've used DCC, you will wonder why you waited!

[tstage]

PRRman,

up_santafe brought up a point that I was going to make, that raises a few questions I'd like to ask:

1) How many trains do you usually run/will you expect to run on your layout at the same time?
2) How many of your locomotives are of the "30 year old" variety? Have you purchased any newer ones in the last few years, or ones that would be "DCC-ready" and easy(ier) to convert to DCC?

The Zephyr has two DC ports that would allow you to plug in up to two (2) DC transformers to use along with it. You could install a few of your most recent locomotives with decoders and save the older ones for conversion when the monies are there. Or, not convert them at all and use the monies to sink into kits. You'd still be able to run them on DC using the Zephyr, in conjuntion with your DC transformers.

Just a thought...
Tom

[Anonymous]

At this time I'm in the process of building a 18'x30' layout, and over the years I accumulated over "85" locomotives. Only 2 of them are DCC ready. I hate to think of what it would cost, to convert the whole fleet from DC to DCC. I will Deffinitly be building a DC operated layout. To resolve the problem of a future conversion, I think I'll bring all the block wiring back to one main terminal box. Are there any better ideas out there? I'm open to suggestions.[banghead]

[rrinker]

It is SO worth it to go to DCC. I have been sold ont he command control concept since as a kid I checked out the David Sutton book "Complete Book of Model Railroading" from the local library and red the chapter on GE's Astrac. It wasn't until more recently that I was finally able to operate a command control layout, and there really is no going back for me.
My father-in-law is in pretty much the sam position you are. All of my locos are newer, and have been converted, but he has a large ocllection goign back over many years. At first he wanted to make sure I had provisions to switch the layout from DCC to DC power. Then he got a couple of BLI and Atlas locos with QSI sound and sarted runnign those, as well as mine, under DCC (Digitrax Zephyr). Next up, he picked out three of his locos and had me install decoders. Now he never talks about running DC ont he layout at all. And anything not worthy of installing decoders in, he is ready to put up for sale to buy newer stuff that is. Already that list includes his two Rivarossi GG-1's, mostly because they are the older units with deep flanges and they do not run on the Code 83 track. Blue Box Athearns are no problem to decoder, unless they are the older style motors, not the 'tan can' style they've used for 20 years. Just about ANYTHIGN can be decodered - a couple of his older brass steamers even have the motor already isolated, kind of rare considering how old they are. The only thing that scares me there is taking the darn things apart.

--Randy

[jwr_1986]

You wouldn't have to convert the whole fleet at once. All DCC systems can operate one analog loco usually on the 00 address. I'd recommend finding a club or private layout that operates with DCC and trying it out. My club was skeptical but now they love it. The expandability built into all of the good systems means that you don't have to dive in wallet first. Basically you're looking at 160 for the zephyr and around 20 for each loco you equip. William North you mention that you have two DCC ready locomotives. Are they ready in the sense that you can plug a decoder in or ready as in pre-equiped. A nasty little surprise in the manufacturers wording. My favorite feature that DC simply can't do economically is wireless operation. Hope this has helped a bit.

Jesse

PS - Please excuse typographical errors; I don't have my glasses on.

[Anonymous]

You're asking the wrong question. You should ask which DCC system you should buy. My vote is Digitrax since you can start small and expand.

[Anonymous]

DIgitrax will control all your locomotives. You will find this to be far easier on your topology (wiring table) than old style DC blocks.

[BRVRR]

PRRMan,
Most of the high points have been covered already.
I made the switch to DCC two years ago with a Digitrax Zephyr. It has performed as advertised since it was installed. Installation took about 5-minutes and I was running an analog loco.
If at all possible, get out there and look at the different systems available. Go to a few train shows and talk to the vendors. Most will have a demonstrator set up so you can handle the throttles and test the reactions of a locomotive on the track.
Most of the starter systems out there from Atlas/Lenz/Digitrax etc. are full featured and expandable with readily available components. I would stay away from MRC since their systems, at least up to now, have been stand alone and not expandable. They also have limited capability. MRC promises the newest system will be expanded, however. Look them over though. They might be just what you need.
Decoders are cheaper in bulk. Buy 5 or more at a time and you can get a basic decoder for $11.00 - $12.00. Six function decoders in bulk run about $20.00 each. If you have a lot of F7s or steamers, a basic Digitrax DH123 will give you motor control and directional lights, as will many of the other 'basic' decoders.
Look over what is available. Visit Tony's Train Exchange, Litchfield Station, and Loy's Toys on the Internet. All of them have explanations of DCC, comparisons of the various products and helpful hints for building a DCC layout, installing decoders in locomotives and much more.
Since you are building a new layout, I recommend you think long and hard about DCC. The cost differential isn't as great as you might think.
You will never regret the change-over.
There are pictures of my Zephyr control system on my web site. The link is in my signature. Once on site, pu***he 'Layout' Button.
Good luck whatever your decision.

[jkeaton]

OK, a contrarian view. If you're only going to run a couple of trains at a time, perhaps mostly with only yourself as operator, PRRman, and you have a comfort level with straight DC wiring and operating the necessary control panel (especially when it's as simple as 8 to 10 blocks), and a collection of locomotives some of which may be difficult to convert - then why spend the extra $600? It would be like buying a fully loaded Chevy Suburban when all you've ever needed or wanted in a vehicle you can find in a Chevy Cavalier. There's nothing wrong, and everything right, about sticking with a proven technology that you understand and can afford. Model railroading is a hobby, after all, not a test of oneupmanship or who has the most "toys".

However, one other consideration that I haven't seen mentioned goes back to the question of how many operators your new layout will have. If it's mostly just you, go DC.
If you're going to have friends, children, or grandchildren over, though, it's a lot easier for them to cope with a DCC system, as there's no block switches to worry about and explain.

Jim

[Anonymous]

PRRMan - as a recent DCC convert I feel your pain - DCC definitely is a significant investment above and beyond the DC equipment that most of us start out which. Perhaps more importantly is the opportunity cost - that $600 could be used elswhere on the layout.

The question you have to ask - as you did - is it worth the cost? the answer is not universally yes.

As others have noted the costs do add up:
DCC system - additional and wireless throttles are significant extra costs
power shield
decoders
installation labor for problem installs - it pays to be a tinkerer - because you have to be very comfortable dissasembling/reassembling engines etc, and something WILL break - trust me - some engines require resistors for the lights - some require milling of weights
trial and error factor - the equipment you lose while learning how not to do things the wrong way.

So for those considering the switch make sure you have a realistic view of the cost vs the benefits of the conversion.

[mikebonellisr]

It will be money well spent.Though you could use that money to buy scenery,rolling stock,or even another engine or two I think you will enjoy operating your rr more with DCC

[Anonymous]

I recently returned to the hobby, and after reading the pros/cons about DCC/DC I went with DCC (zephyr) The inital cost isn't that bad $150.00 and $15.00-$20.00 per decoder in the long run. There is a certain pleasure of "calling up" the loco you want to move by entering it's cab number sending it on it's route, then doing it again to another one.
The most locos I have had running by myself is 3, 2 on the mainlines and 1 in the yard doing switching.

If you could wire up blocks, wiring in a decoder isn't hard.

Steve

[Anonymous]

And for what it is worth - IMO DCC wiring is only easier if you have only one block - then the "all it takes is two wire theory" works. If you have multiple blocks (as is required for power management/ circuit breaker protection) you will wire just as much as you do in DC.

[rrinker]

Not really - there's no real reason to have DCC power districts as small as DC loco control blocks - the idea is really to prevent one short from killing the entire layout. I have a double-track loop with yard, it will have a total of three power districts, outer loop, inner loop, and yard/sidings. If I was doing this as DC, each loop would be 3-4 blocks, 3 being the minimum to run 2 trains, 4 or more being better. Plus another 2-3 blocks for the yard and sidings so industries could be worked whie the yard engine is classifying cars. So we're talking 10-12 blocks for DC, vs 3 for DCC power districts.
Plus NO toggle switches and the only gaps you need are between the power districts.
Until you add signalling and detection - then you need a lot of gaps and feeders, not a lot of long runs back to the control panel.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Wow! I never expected this much input to my delema. Thanks, you' ve really given some good debate to both sides of the question. I've been an Electrician for 39 years (39 years!?!?!?!?!? HOLY CRAP.) Since pulling wire is no big deal to me, I think I'll go with the terminal box idea, and give a serious look at DCC. I may even split up the layout, for both (for now) and work my way into a Full DCC operation Down the road. That's the great thing about this hobby; It's flexible, and no ones layout is the same.

From the forests of Michigan, Thanks again,
Bill[:)]

[nswgr1855]

QUOTE: Originally posted by William North

Wow! I never expected this much input to my delema. Thanks, you' ve really given some good debate to both sides of the question. I've been an Electrician for 39 years (39 years!?!?!?!?!? HOLY CRAP.) Since pulling wire is no big deal to me, I think I'll go with the terminal box idea, and give a serious look at DCC. I may even split up the layout, for both (for now) and work my way into a Full DCC operation Down the road. That's the great thing about this hobby; It's flexible, and no ones layout is the same.

From the forests of Michigan, Thanks again,
Bill[:)]

[nswgr1855]

I still prefer DC. See my web page for some alternative ideas on DC operation.

http://www.angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html

[Anonymous]

As always, gang: Thank you fot the input! I know I can rely on this site to help.

Matt

[Anonymous]

Matt:

Our club went -- reluctantly -- with the Digitrax system (we had had another system that was difficult to impossible to figure out, i.e., code) and we have never looked back.

We regularly run non DCC locos along with the DCC locos and it gives us all the flexibility in the world.

Jump into DCC -- you'll be glad you did.

And as others have said, start with one loco a month to add the chip.

Even with a small layout (our club's N Scale Layout is 2 by 6) we have DCC so two operators have the run of the layout.

Good luck!

Pat

[Anonymous]

I am putting together my layout in N scale, I have no experience with DCC, and I am wondering how much more difficult, if at all, and more costly it would be to do it in N.
Loyout will be a 20'X6' dogbone, and I have about 20 locos: mostly kato, lifelike, and Atlas
Any advice would be appreciated. Oh and BTW, I can spend up to about $500.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PatDowd

Matt:

Our club went -- reluctantly -- with the Digitrax system (we had had another system that was difficult to impossible to figure out, i.e., code) and we have never looked back.

We regularly run non DCC locos along with the DCC locos and it gives us all the flexibility in the world.

Jump into DCC -- you'll be glad you did.

And as others have said, start with one loco a month to add the chip.

Even with a small layout (our club's N Scale Layout is 2 by 6) we have DCC so two operators have the run of the layout.

Good luck!

Pat

What is the key to being able to run both DCC and non DCC locs at the same time? Are you limited to one non DCC loco i.e one 00 address. What is the effect on the DCC locos

[rrinker]

You need a brand of DCC system that supports it - not all do. The non-DCC loco will run on address 00. Usually top speed is lsower than the same loco on regular DC. Also, the motor will 'sing' from the square wave signal, more at slow speed, less at top speed. Different motors react different ways - Athearn Blue Box type are usually the loudest, mainly because the motor magnets are loosely installed. High quality coreless motors as found on some precision locos are a definite no-no - those WILL quickly burn up.
As for the effect on DCC locos - the analog operation works by stretching the '0' bit of the DCC signal. The effect of this is slowing the data rate of packet transmissions. On a large club layout, this will likely result in noticeable delays in command response, if a lot of locos are in operation. On a smaller layout with 5 or so locos running? You'll probably never notice a difference.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I am starting to put together the pieces for my first layout in 3 decades and after some research I decided to go with DCC. Price was an inital consideration, I was going to purchace a MRC Duelpack transformer of of eBay but they go for almost half what the cost of a new one is. Why would I want to pay $80.00 for a top quality DC pack when I can start in DCC for $75 (Bachman system) ?

This weekend I am going to visit Davis Trains and March 12 there is a Train Show in Cincinnati where I hope to find a little nicer system at only a little more cost.

[gmpullman]

I recently got a Digitrax Radio Chief at a really good price from a friend who is, sadly, scrapping his layout. I had tossed around the DCC Idea for my fairly extensive sized HO layout. I had been using SIX DC cabs and all the rotary switches, etc.
Operating had become so much of a hassle that it wasn't FUN anymore.
Just last night I thought I'd try an experiment where I bundled all 6 cab feeds into one BIG wirenut and fed them all from the single Digitrax command station. I use common rail so wired the other side to that... WOW! I played... (sorry, Operated) well into the wee hours of the morning! I can honestly say I've never had so much fun on my layout!!!
I was running trains into sidings and crossovers that I'd rarely, if ever, used because of the "Cab control" hassles!
Mind you, this is just a temporary tryout. I am going to divide the layout into 8 power districts and add just one more booster.
I have code 83 power routing Shinohara turnouts and I didn't have a single glitch with shorts... even through a gang of three double slips that I have at the Union Station throat!
I am the latest DCC convert! I'll never go back to plain 'ol DC! I've installed about 10 decoders in various P2K locomotives (they were due for tune ups anyway) and I can do one in about a half hour now... no problem!
I have a few Broadway engines with sound and the DCC makes them come alive!!! Haven't figured out all the CV stuff yet, but in time... An added bonus is seeing all my passenger trains with constant lighted interiors!
Well, so much for my $.02 but in short... the FUN VALUE is well worth the DCC expense!
Thanks for listening! Ed

[Anonymous]

If you build your layout in DC now, you can convert it later, you can take advantage of your DC blocks, combine a few and create power districts, this will help your current on the mainline when you have several engines in a consist, and still give you precise control while starting and stopping switchers, or running several trains...

To others reading, don't just jump into DCC at a cost you can afford, there's a reason it's cheaper... that's because it is "cheaper", I started with an Atlas commander, good price getting started, poor performance, ok if you have a small layout and a couple of engines.

I'll be upgrading to a Digitrax soon, maybe e-bay will help with the Atlas commander

[Anonymous]

Here's a question... for a one loco layout that is going to be in a coffee table... Would I need the extra cost of DCC? Or would DC or some other system work the same/better for less money? This layout is going to be a test to see if I'm a enthuaist or a modeler, so the cheaper the better. I'm thinking the layout is going to be a loop (maybe with a passing lane eventually?) Maybe a passanger "scenic" look, try and build some mountains around it or at least one big one in the middle. Anyway, What do you all think about the power?

[Anonymous]

If you have one loco, definitely stick with DC, especially if you are testing your MRR interest. DCC is great if you have more than one loco or have some friends over to run the layout.

[AntonioFP45]

GMPullman,

Wow! Impressive and very encouraging! One of the issues that had kept me from building an operations oriented layout was the intimidating thought of installing DC cabs. When I read about DCC in 2003 and a friend gave me a demo, I had a good feeling and am looking forward to a layout.