Hi Matt,
I hope your daughter makes a speedy and full recovery!
Here is one source for 'No Clean' liquid flux. Scroll down a bit:
https://www.ngineering.com/soldering.htm
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Bayfield Transfer RailwaySeveral years back, MR published a letter from a person who had worked on the Redstone missile project, and they talked about soldering. In particular, he said that most modelers use way too much flux, and he said it's better technique to lightly scrape the surface to be soldered. I've tried it, for what it's worth, and when soldering feeders, scraping the rail a bit first really improves how the solder sticks, and it's much neater.
For a good solder bond, you need a clean substrate, with any oxide dislodged. You also need to preclude formation of new oxide before the liquid metal wets the substrate.
Flux of higher activity is more aggressive in attacking contaminants on the surface... as with many chemical cleaners, etching primer, etc. The 'catch' is that it's also aggressive against the material in or beneath that surface.
Best of both worlds is to scratch or abrade the surface under the 'barrier layer' of liquid or paste flux. Interestingly we see very little discussion of controlled atmosphere, as in fusion welding, as an alternative to flux blanketing -- probably for reasons associated with cost and convenience.
At one time there was discussion of using power ultrasonics in conjunction with submerged-arc welding, to give mechanical fret breakup of any oxides at the edges of the weld zone. This might be applicable to cleaning irregular surfaces, difficult to access mechanically aside from scratching, beneath a passivating blanket. Again I think that cost would rule out such an approach for track joining.
Several years back, MR published a letter from a person who had worked on the Redstone missile project, and they talked about soldering. In particular, he said that most modelers use way too much flux, and he said it's better technique to lightly scrape the surface to be soldered.I've tried it, for what it's worth, and when soldering feeders, scraping the rail a bit first really improves how the solder sticks, and it's much neater.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer RailwayYour tip can never be too clean. Just ask your wife.
Whoa! TMI!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Matt, this is probably not what you want to have to read right now, but this technical article on different flux compositions will go a long way toward resolving the various aspects of the choices.
Keep in mind that soldering rails is only incidentally like 'electronic' soldering, and somewhat more aggressive activity in preparing the area for good solder bonding is tolerable than would be the case for SMDs or fine decoder leads in an area that can't be washed after soldering. So you don't have to use only low-activity flux for such work -- it's much more important to understand how a given product produces its activity, and how those chemicals might react with the common materials found at the rail joints.
This is one of those subtle things like why there is silver and copper in quad-eutectic solder: it keeps those metals from diffusing from the joined pieces into the solder joint.
My daughter is home now, for those wondering. I'm still groggy and we have a long journey ahead but thanks for the kind thoughts. We are lucky to have Seattle Children's Hospital so close.
gmpullmanI post Amazon links as a matter of convenience. I usually mention a "for example" disclaimer. I don't encourage nor discourage anyone from buying wherever they like. Sometimes going to the manufacturer's website can be overwhelming and doesn't always point to a specific product. Generally product descriptions and reviews can be helpful. Ultimately, it is up to the purchaser to source their purchase.
Ed, absolutely. Probably I could have softened my statement, and I too use Amazon's website regularly for research and reference. There's room for everyone in this world (still!).
More to the issue at hand, your links were extremely useful in determining exactly what I should buy.
I did notice (reading back again in the thread), that LIQUID flux was mentioned, and I think I'd like to try some of that as well, because in videos I've watched it looks extremely easy to use. However, searching for "liquid no-clean rosin flux low activity" was turning up too many weird options. I found that Kester 186 kept turning up, but its "activity" level was not specified and I was warned (Overmod?) to avoid too high an activity. And at least one source onlined mentioned that there was a very low level of rosin in Kester 186, and that didn't sound right, so I backed off. I've read through the thread twice but cannot find a specific product anyone recommended for the no-clean liquid flux. I'm still open to suggetions for that. If the Kester 186 is low activity, that seems like it might be the way to go.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Overmod richhotrain Did someone contend otherwise? No, and I'm not being argumentative. I just want to establish that tip hygiene is different from 'tinning' wires and parts prior to assembly.
richhotrain
Did someone contend otherwise?
No, and I'm not being argumentative. I just want to establish that tip hygiene is different from 'tinning' wires and parts prior to assembly.
Your tip can never be too clean. Just ask your wife.
Glad to hear your daughter is doing better today, Matt
I did nearly all my track soldering with a Weller 35 watt pencil iron. Not really a cheap one but it was 35 watts. I found it plenty hot enough for joiners and feeders.
Weller_holder by Edmund, on Flickr
I post Amazon links as a matter of convenience. I usually mention a "for example" disclaimer. I don't encourage nor discourage anyone from buying wherever they like. Sometimes going to the manufacturer's website can be overwhelming and doesn't always point to a specific product. Generally product descriptions and reviews can be helpful. Ultimately, it is up to the purchaser to source their purchase.
Regards, Ed
York1Matt, don't worry about anything here. You and your daughter are in my prayers.
But I've found decent nonAmazon prices for both of the items Ed recommended (I don't trade with Amazon). SRA's own website had the flux for the same price as Amazon and shipped it for free (!), and I found a 1lb roll of the Kester Rosin Core 0.031" solder on ebay for 2.99 and three bucks shipping, which was 25 bucks on Amazon.
If that isn't a hoax, I think I've done well. I should have done this research earlier, I've just been harried. I'll return the other stuff I bought earlier, maybe even the iron, because the tip is the size of the Gustav cannon, probably too big for trackwork. Again, I jumped quickly because it was the only high-wattage stick that I'd been able to find on a shelf locally and they only had one. I like the 80 watts but I think Hakko makes a 60-watt iron that I can find at Home Depot that has a smaller tip. And before I do that I will go back through the thread to review what you guys have said about soldering irons.
Thanks again Ed for the particular brand and product recommendations.
Matt, don't worry about anything here. You and your daughter are in my prayers.
York1 John
gmpullmanIF I'm not mistaken I put a link to the flux I find to be very good in my first reply on page 1. Maybe you didn't like that stuff?
Sorry guys, my kid's in the hospital with blood clots in her lungs so I'm distracted, and I was using my small iPhone (SE5 or whatever), which makes it hard to navigate long strings. Thanks for these links/recommendations. I'll quit posting questions until I have a chance to go back through the thread. Maybe everything I need to know is already here. Cheers,
There will come a day again after some 40+ years gone by. I'm writing all this solder stuff down Ed
TF
crossthedogWhat's a flux brand you guys use? I could just look around until I find the exact stuff.
IF I'm not mistaken I put a link to the flux I find to be very good in my first reply on page 1. Maybe you didn't like that stuff?
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practical_Electronics/Soldering
For years I used 60/40 for electronic work. I liked it fine. Then when eutectic 63/37 was deemed preferable I switched to that which took me a while to get used to. So for someone just getting started to try to solder feeders and joiners to rail with lead-free 95/5 would be a real challenge.
richhotrainbut since his flux is lead free and acid free, wouldn't it be safe for soldering rail joints?
If the manufacturer states "not recommended for electrical work" that's enough of a suggestion for me to steer clear.
Kester is one of the best brands out there, 63/37 is a good all-around alloy for wiring and electronics. .031 is a handy size but if you get into finer work, say on PC boards or decoders you might want to look at some .020 even .015.
https://www.amazon.com/Kester-24-6337-0027-Solder-Alloy-Diameter/dp/B0149K4JTY/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=kester+63%2F37&qid=1621127299&sr=8-1
richhotrainDid someone contend otherwise?
Acid flux is a NO NO NO.
Zinc chloride is not far behind.
Rosin-core is nifty but in many cases you need more 'flux action' than that tiny dried-up paste provides.
DO NOT USE PLUMBER'S ANYTHING. Plumbing requires aggressive flux to bite and clean large areas of pipe and fittings. The solder is the antithesis of what you want for most fabrication or electronics work -- the alloy is purposely made to stay 'sludgy' as long as possible so wiped joints settle in to be water or pressure tight. No one cares if the pipes wind up stained or blotched and difficult to clean afterward.
What I advise is finding a good solder specialty provider (there are several) and getting a liquid no-clean flux -- these come in greater and less activity; you won't need high activity (which sometimes includes that zinc chloride corrosive). A small bottle of good no-clean will last a long time in this hobby. In the meantime here is a link to the SRA store Ed quoted in his post (he uses their #135 rosin paste flux).
You may still want to clean the joint after "no clean" flux has been used, but it won't have the nasty issues that acid or the wrong kind of rosin blobs have. There are special flux cleaners. Most of them are chemically awful. I'm not going to be Nanny and say stay away, but know really, really well what's in them and how to use them right before you open them up.
What's a flux brand you guys use? I could just look around until I find the exact stuff. And solder.
Ed, I agree that rosin flux would be best, but since his flux is lead free and acid free, wouldn't it be safe for soldering rail joints? You would not want to use it though on electronics boards.
Rich
Alton Junction
Nokorode data sheet for #14000 says "NOT for electronic use"
APPLICATIONS: Nokorode® Regular Paste Flux can be used with 95/5, 60/40, 50/50 and 40/60 solders. It can be used on all solderable metals including copper, tin, zinc, nickel, and sheet lead. Do not use on stainless steel, aluminum or magnesium. Not recommended for electronic use.
I would say it is for plumbing and sheet metal.
https://tinyurl.com/28pwz67a
https://rectorseal.com/nokorode-regular-paste-flux-group/
In my 65 years I've never used lead free solder, either. I don't know how much luck you're going to have with that. What diameter is your solder? Most of my layout soldering wotrk is with .032 and .020 solder. For decoder and PC work I use .015.
95/5? For plumbing.
https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-955-lead-free-plumbing-wire-solder-216233657
Good Luck, Ed
Bayfield Transfer Railway Also, for the record, last layout, every piece of rail either had a feeder, or was soldered to a rail that had a feeder.
Also, for the record, last layout, every piece of rail either had a feeder, or was soldered to a rail that had a feeder.
You don't need resistance soldering to solder. I use a Weller 23 w iron and it works just fine. Keep the tip clean, retin it every time you use it, scrape the rail where you are going to solder (it helps).Get some junk track and practice. You will never be sorry.
It looks like you will be OK with that jar of flux. It is acid-free. Here is what the marketing pitch says about it.
Nokorode Regular Paste Flux is a lead-free, all purpose, soft soldering paste flux ideal for use with 95/5 and other common solders. Nokorode special oil base protects the solder joint against corrosive attack. It cleans and fluxes all at one time.
Features
.
crossthedog Guys, here's what the local hardware store had. Someone here told to make sure the flux I bought was not acid but rosin. Maybe I misread, but in the store, the rosin/acid issue seemed to be around the solder, not the flux. I bought rosin-core solder, and I got the flux shown below. Did I get the right stuff? My thought is, the hardware store stocks soldering stuff for electricians and plumbers, not modelers.
Guys, here's what the local hardware store had. Someone here told to make sure the flux I bought was not acid but rosin. Maybe I misread, but in the store, the rosin/acid issue seemed to be around the solder, not the flux. I bought rosin-core solder, and I got the flux shown below. Did I get the right stuff? My thought is, the hardware store stocks soldering stuff for electricians and plumbers, not modelers.
Also I picked up an 80-watt Weller iron. Tip seems too big now that I look at it.
Overmod A plated tip is supposed to accomplish some of these things whether well-wetted with solder or not. Problem is that as the plating wears or is abrasively cleaned, it becomes harder to 'wipe clean' and more inclined to hold dirty or oxidized material. At some point, especially with certain tips from places that value price over plating integrity, the tips will wear to the point their base metal (usually copper or a copper alloy) is exposed.
A plated tip is supposed to accomplish some of these things whether well-wetted with solder or not. Problem is that as the plating wears or is abrasively cleaned, it becomes harder to 'wipe clean' and more inclined to hold dirty or oxidized material. At some point, especially with certain tips from places that value price over plating integrity, the tips will wear to the point their base metal (usually copper or a copper alloy) is exposed.
Huh. I've got an iron with a Weller 50W #37 screw in unit. Nice large head. I bought it maybe 40-50 years ago--sometime in the last century. It's got the original plated tip, in fine form.
I've cleaned it with wet paper towels for about forever.
I DON'T let it get too hot too long. If it's going that direction, I unplug it, and cool it down by wiping with, yes, wet paper towels.
Ed
Overmod Cleaning and tinning the tip is a completely different thing.
Cleaning and tinning the tip is a completely different thing.
Cleaning and tinning the tip is a completely different thing. Heat transfer from the tip needs to be as immediate and complete as possible; coverage of the liquid solder needs to be as smooth and, frequently, 'capillary' as possible; it's important not to starve part of the joint of solder flow, or have part of it start to 'freeze' before expected (if you're not using eutectic solder).
Now copper is a good conductor of heat, but copper oxide less so, and hot copper loves to oxidize and corrode in a variety of ways, none particularly conducive to soldering ease. What you want is to clean and burnish the copper, and then seal the 'pink' metal with a thick film of solder metal before it has even a whisper of a chance to start oxidizing materially. Then keeping this film maintained with "regular tinning" gives you all the advantages of a plated tip without replacement cost. (But the moment any copper gets exposed, you may have to re-clean and then re-tin the bare patches...)
richhotrainI have to say, I have never heard of tinning the rails.
Same. I never tin the rail first. A properly prepared joint doesn't need this step.
Rob Spangler