richhotrain It reminded me of trying to discern the difference between Woodland Scenics Bushes and Underbrush. To my eye, although I use both, I don't see any real difference.
As far as I can tell, they are exactly the same.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Geez, there's a lot of pee showing up in people's cornflakes suddenly.
Lastspikemike WS measurements are of the quantity of product in each bag rather than the particle size.
WS measurements are of the quantity of product in each bag rather than the particle size.
Obviously, I didn't read it closely.
Assuming that size is partly significant to OPs question, I would think particle size should be something that's disclosed, to whatever accuracy can be determined uniformly considering the product is made from crushed "something" likely strained through a grate.
- Douglas
Alton Junction
Doughless But for others who may be curious, I don't know if a blast furnace would use gray or buff, fine or coarse (or medium), gravel or ballast.
But for others who may be curious, I don't know if a blast furnace would use gray or buff, fine or coarse (or medium), gravel or ballast.
Rich
hbgatsf Doughless Are you asking, do the WS products represent limestone? No. I am asking what the difference is between WS ballast and WS gravel. I should have left out the reference to the steel mill and limestone to avoid confusion. Rick
Doughless Are you asking, do the WS products represent limestone?
Are you asking, do the WS products represent limestone?
Ok, and just to clarify, some of us are aware of a company in Arizona that actually obtains and pulverizes the actual rock that's being used on the models. Pulverized limestone. Pulverized granite. etc. For those who want really accurate modeling.
And they use something to make the "pink lady" ballast that is common on the C&NW, maybe even going so far as to obtain the actual stone from the same source as C&NW.
I'm not sure if WS ballast and gravel are both made from the same material.
Is that the difference you're refering to, or "difference" in some other way, like size, color, and potential use?
From WS website:
Gravel is sized to model gravel roads more realistically. Use Accent for shoulders and to model bare spots on roads.
Gravel- 10.8 in3 (176 cm3)Accent Powder- 1.8 in3 (29.4 cm3)Coverage: Models a gravel road 14' x 2" (4.26 m x 5.08 cm)
Actual coverage depends on usage.
WS lists descriptions for buff and gray gravel based upon fine and coarse. The dimensions for fine are above.
And for Ballast:
Realistically model railroad track, crushed rock and stones. Easy to use and colorfast. For any scale.
That's it. Hope that helps.
After unsuccessfully Googling 'woodland scenics gravel versus ballast', and finding nothing, I watched a Woodland Scenics video on the use of its "gravel" to make a road.
I came to the conclusion that there is no real visual difference between WS gravel and ballast except for the size of the granules. It reminded me of trying to discern the difference between Woodland Scenics Bushes and Underbrush. To my eye, although I use both, I don't see any real difference.
In the WS gravel video, the narrator comments that the gravel is very useful for creating roads, parking lots, and road shoulders. On my HO scale layout, I use Woodland Scenics Fine Ballast for parking lots and country roads because the Fine Ballast granules are smaller than the Medium ballast that I use on my mainline tracks.
My suggestion to the OP is to purchase a small bag of both Ballast and Gravel and compare the differences and then choose the style that best suits his purposes.
Rick
DoughlessI assume the WS products represent different grades of limestone.
As Rick understands the industry, he already knows what material 'can be' used in blast furnaces -- type, size, prep, handling -- and a comparatively simple answer would be to look at the two WS 'grades' (including measuring the scale size and variability) and pick the one more suitable. I don't pretend to any great knowledge of practical steelmaking, or of Woodland Scenics ballast dimensions, but I'd think 'buff ballast' represents weathered limestone whereas most feedstock for a modern furnace would be relatively recently crushed/broken and therefore closer to the natural stone color -- perhaps lighter or even white.
SeeYou190 Doughless Southern Indiana is/was dotted with limestone quarries and is well known as having some of the most desirable limestone because of its color and evenness...no veins. The Indiana limestone products are generally considered the absolute best. I have been told the stone mined from these quarries was often processed like marble. Sawn into slabs or blocks for construction because of its beauty. Not like the yucky stuff we mine down here that is only good for crushing, washing, sorting, and selling by the cubic yard in small chunks. -Kevin
Doughless Southern Indiana is/was dotted with limestone quarries and is well known as having some of the most desirable limestone because of its color and evenness...no veins.
The Indiana limestone products are generally considered the absolute best. I have been told the stone mined from these quarries was often processed like marble. Sawn into slabs or blocks for construction because of its beauty.
Not like the yucky stuff we mine down here that is only good for crushing, washing, sorting, and selling by the cubic yard in small chunks.
I remember the Pentagon and the Empire State Building being built from Bedford Stone. The Empire Quarry, the quarry specifically dug for the ESB, is overgrown but is still a bit of a tourist attraction.
Empire Quarry – Bloomington, Indiana - Atlas Obscura
But Bedford Stone was also used in many more prominent places in the USA.
Indiana Limestone - Wikipedia
The Monon served the quarries in the Bloomington/Bedford area.
BTW, I think alomost all industrial grade gravel is actully limestone in one way or another. Blast furnaces, coal power plant scrubbers, ballast, gravel roads, etc. I suppose there are granite chips and marbel chips used for specific purposes, but that stone is more expensive to use for general purposes, IMO.
And of course, gravel roads would also be built from whatever material is local. Wyoming?
I assume the WS products represent different grades of limestone.
hbgatsf richhotrain hbgatsf doctorwayne Mike, you (and the OP) obviously missed the information in my first response, detailing the sizes of limestone for blast furnaces and steel-making. Wayne I didn't miss your information. It was irrelevant to the question I asked. No other details about how I am going to use it matter. I wanted to know the difference between the product Woodland Scenics lables as gravel and the product they label as ballast. Apparantly nobody knows the answer to that so I will try to contact them. I think that your reply to Wayne could have been a little less abrupt. True, it was not an answer to your question, but that often occurs in forum discussion. On another forum, I recently posted a technical question and received no replies. So, in an attempt to humorously post a light hearted reply, I wrote something like "It looks like I stumped the group with my question". It did not go over well. My only point is, there is no good reason to alienate your audience. Rich Wayne stated that I missed his post. I didn't. I wasn't trying to alienate anyone. I was anoyed that this thread went off in a direction that was unrelated to what I was trying to learn. I know a lot about steel making and didn't want to get into that here. What is used to ballast track on the prototype isn't what I was looking for either. I wanted to know the composition of the products Woodland Scenics puts in the containers. Abrupt comes from responding via cell phone which I hate typing on. I need to learn to only get into these discussions when I am on the computer. Rick
richhotrain hbgatsf doctorwayne Mike, you (and the OP) obviously missed the information in my first response, detailing the sizes of limestone for blast furnaces and steel-making. Wayne I didn't miss your information. It was irrelevant to the question I asked. No other details about how I am going to use it matter. I wanted to know the difference between the product Woodland Scenics lables as gravel and the product they label as ballast. Apparantly nobody knows the answer to that so I will try to contact them. I think that your reply to Wayne could have been a little less abrupt. True, it was not an answer to your question, but that often occurs in forum discussion. On another forum, I recently posted a technical question and received no replies. So, in an attempt to humorously post a light hearted reply, I wrote something like "It looks like I stumped the group with my question". It did not go over well. My only point is, there is no good reason to alienate your audience. Rich
hbgatsf doctorwayne Mike, you (and the OP) obviously missed the information in my first response, detailing the sizes of limestone for blast furnaces and steel-making. Wayne I didn't miss your information. It was irrelevant to the question I asked. No other details about how I am going to use it matter. I wanted to know the difference between the product Woodland Scenics lables as gravel and the product they label as ballast. Apparantly nobody knows the answer to that so I will try to contact them.
doctorwayne Mike, you (and the OP) obviously missed the information in my first response, detailing the sizes of limestone for blast furnaces and steel-making. Wayne
Mike, you (and the OP) obviously missed the information in my first response, detailing the sizes of limestone for blast furnaces and steel-making.
Wayne
I didn't miss your information. It was irrelevant to the question I asked. No other details about how I am going to use it matter.
I wanted to know the difference between the product Woodland Scenics lables as gravel and the product they label as ballast. Apparantly nobody knows the answer to that so I will try to contact them.
I think that your reply to Wayne could have been a little less abrupt. True, it was not an answer to your question, but that often occurs in forum discussion.
On another forum, I recently posted a technical question and received no replies. So, in an attempt to humorously post a light hearted reply, I wrote something like "It looks like I stumped the group with my question". It did not go over well.
My only point is, there is no good reason to alienate your audience.
Wayne stated that I missed his post. I didn't.
I wasn't trying to alienate anyone. I was anoyed that this thread went off in a direction that was unrelated to what I was trying to learn. I know a lot about steel making and didn't want to get into that here. What is used to ballast track on the prototype isn't what I was looking for either. I wanted to know the composition of the products Woodland Scenics puts in the containers.
Abrupt comes from responding via cell phone which I hate typing on. I need to learn to only get into these discussions when I am on the computer.
I read your question and didn't detect if you were asking about possibly two different components (materials?), one component for ballast and one component for gravel.
Your question...... I need something to represent limestone that is ready to be fed into a blast furnace. On another board I saw where someone used WS buff ballast. WS also has buff gravel. What's the difference between these products?
.......talked about uses (blast furnace, aka steel making) and color.
Amen to that. Even keying replies on a laptop can be perceived negatively by some.
I sometimes wish that I could avoid the written word when something said in person, one-on-one, is much better received by others.
DoughlessSouthern Indiana is/was dotted with limestone quarries and is well known as having some of the most desirable limestone because of its color and evenness...no veins.
Just for the record, gravel stone tends to be gray and limestone tends to be buff.
Limestone color depends upon the "purity". Southern Indiana is/was dotted with limestone quarries and is well known as having some of the most desirable limestone because of its color and evenness...no veins. It was used to sheathe the Pentagon and the Empire State Building, so I'm told, as examples of its desirablity. Those buildings are buff, not gray.
Perhaps the gray tinted stone is limestone that is of less desirability as a building material. Gray limestone for gravel in hopper cars, buff limestone as cut slabs on flats and gons.
So the answer is: Limestone that is gray and veiny is scrap stone that gets used as ballast and industries that cook it. Limestone that is more buff doesn't get chopped up, but there can always be a buff hue to any limestone.
I assume WS makes the gravel for the loads and the ballast for the railroad ROW, or, go with the product that is less buff as the hopper loads.
Lastspikemike...Limestone for a blast furnace or lime plant will be rough crush, not screened for size....
Post Hog!
I remember Brother uses kitty litter for his ballast on his Subway layout up in the big attic of the Monastery. Him just let gravity hold it down. I wonder if him used the fragrant stuff?
I miss that guy and his Roar! around here. Maybe I can lure him to this thread as it would be interesting to hear of his kitty litter ballasting techniques.
Some rare cuts of fresh wildebeest ought to do the trick. That last one may be a little well done for him
TF
The aggregate size matters for different scales.
I don't think I'm going to spend any money on ballast when I get to it. Instead I think I'm going to ramshackle Judy's colander and cooking sifters while she's at work One needs a little lithium and minerals that is found in substrate in their diet anyway. A little less after a good rinse.
The first sifting experiment I will try will be class 5 road underlayment as I know where there's a free plentiful supply. I know where there's some good gravel pits around here that has different color piles of fine gravel. The two that don't have No Trespassing signs. My daughter's go Agate hunting with me at these pits as they're closed on Saturday and Sunday.
In using natural stone, perhaps it may be a good idea to run a powerful magnet over the refined gravel prior to use or over the track after the ballast glue dries just in case.
Does it really matter, the terminology that is?
LastspikemikeWhat most people mean by gravel is a rough blend referred to as road crush up here. Totally different stuff.
When anyone I know thinks of gravel, we think of the expensive decorative gravel used for landscaping around our homes. Everything else is just rocks.
"Road Crush" sounds like an uninformed everyman's term. The rock used for road building needs to meet one of many very specific DOT designations. None of it is generic "crush", and all of it is expensive.
LastspikemikeLastspikemike wrote the following post 10 hours ago: riogrande5761 Much ballast is gravel, the: title of topic Sure but it isn't pit run and it isn't road crush. Railroad ballast is screened and blended to railroad engineering specifications.
Sure but if it looks the same on a model RR, then it may mainly be a "head trip", which is a frequent think here.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
hbgatsfI need something to represent limestone that is ready to be fed into a blast furnace.
I'm not sure what I've missed, but a 50lb. bag of limestone screenings is a heck of a lot cheaper than a jug of Woodland Scenics ballast.You didn't mention whether the limestone is going to be in a heap somewhere, or in a some open hoppers, on the way to a steel maker.
If it's destined for the blast furnace, the usual practice is that it's stored in a very large heap (a 4'x8' layout wouldn't accommodate an HO scale version of the heaps with which I'm familiar) which comes to the plant in lakeboats and the stuff going into the furnace would be in the stockhouse, along with the coke and the iron ore or pellets...about all you'll see of it there is in the skips heading up to the top of the furnace...
hbgatsfOn another board I saw where someone used WS buff ballast. WS also has buff gravel. What's the difference between these products?
I've not seen WS gravel in any colour, only WS ballast.Here's buff ballast, used, obviously, as ballast...
It doesn't look to me, at least, all that similar to the limestone ballast I showed previously.Here's WS gray ballast...
...and as you can see, I also used it as gravel. In my opinion, its colour is somewhat closer to the colour of the real limestone which I showed earlier.
The prototype sizes which I mentioned earlier, along with the photos, should be sufficient for you to decide which size and colour is most suitable for your requirements.
Lastspikemike riogrande5761 Much ballast is gravel, the: title of topi Sure but it isn't pit run and it isn't road crush. Railroad ballast is screened and blended to railroad engineering specifications. What most people mean by gravel is a rough blend referred to as road crush up here. Totally different stuff. .........
riogrande5761 Much ballast is gravel, the: title of topi
Much ballast is gravel, the: title of topi
Sure but it isn't pit run and it isn't road crush. Railroad ballast is screened and blended to railroad engineering specifications.
What most people mean by gravel is a rough blend referred to as road crush up here. Totally different stuff.
.........
Main line ballast today is generally crushed rock, with definite engineering specifications. If that is what you are modeling, fine. Any new track construction today will also normally use crushed rock, even for spurs, but that was not the historic practice.
In older times, many lines were ballasted with pit run gravel from some relatively local pit. It provided adequate drainage and served quite well with the lighter axle loads of the day, jointed rail and routine maintenance. It was cheaper than going to the effort of getting crushed rock (often a major concern).
For example, in 1984 CN's main line through Biggar (Saskatchewan) had CWR and rock ballast. The less busy CPR main line beside it still had gravel ballast and jointed rail, even though trains were often hauled by trios of SD40-2s. (It has since been upgraded.)
John
riogrande5761 Much ballast is gravel, the: title of topic
Much ballast is gravel, the: title of topic
Which brings us back to one of my earlier questions - is there any difference between the two WS products? I have never seen the WS gravel in a hobby shop to be able to compare.
doctorwayne This is limestone ballast given to me by a friend in Ohio... ...screened from a load of gravel for his driveway. I often bought limestone gravel here in Ontario (there are several quarries within a 15 minute drive from here), but they no longer sell direct to the public. My usual source suggested that I go to a nearby lumber yard, where the have 50lb. bags of pre-screened limestone, meant for setting paving stones, flagstone, etc. I put it through a succession of seives to get a suitable size for HO scale ballast, the last one being a spatter guard (meant for covering a frying pan to prevent making a mess on the stovetop).Here's the stuff which I got locally... The size of the crushed limestone used for steelmaking can vary in diameter from 1" to 6", although a chart for more specific use shows .125" for sintering, 2"-4" for a blast furnace, and 4"-8" for an open hearth furnace. In HO scale, 1" is about .011". Wayne
This is limestone ballast given to me by a friend in Ohio...
...screened from a load of gravel for his driveway.
I often bought limestone gravel here in Ontario (there are several quarries within a 15 minute drive from here), but they no longer sell direct to the public. My usual source suggested that I go to a nearby lumber yard, where the have 50lb. bags of pre-screened limestone, meant for setting paving stones, flagstone, etc.
I put it through a succession of seives to get a suitable size for HO scale ballast, the last one being a spatter guard (meant for covering a frying pan to prevent making a mess on the stovetop).Here's the stuff which I got locally...
The size of the crushed limestone used for steelmaking can vary in diameter from 1" to 6", although a chart for more specific use shows .125" for sintering, 2"-4" for a blast furnace, and 4"-8" for an open hearth furnace.
In HO scale, 1" is about .011".