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Basement wiring

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:56 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
Doughless

So that means my 15 amp wall outlet can handle devices that can draw 150 amps at the same time.  Cool.

As I'm sure you detected, my question was asked tongue partially in cheek since I knew that a typical wall outlet, which I would call 15 amps, would run more than 7 locomotives.  In fact, it would run an entire large layout.

My frustration stems from the conversations that occur about electricity.

One amp equals one amp, except for those times when it doesn't.

 

 

 

 

Well I'm not sure I follow your thinking or your frustration, maybe because I am an engineering type person.

But, for whatever it is worth, the term AMPERE does not exist in a vacuum, it has little context without knowing the working voltage.

Sheldon

 

I understand the variable nature of voltage embedded in the formula. 

I assume that 99% of our layouts get power from household wiring, and that the voltage supplied through the cord to our power packs and DCC systems to the rails is also constant....with an outlier or two of a couple of volts. 

In my mind, those variables in the formula are actually constants.

Since voltage is a step down, a reducer, from the constant amperage of the wall outlets, I would think the proper language would say that an Athearn BB motor draws, say, .075 amps as well as adjusting the amperage limit of the power pack to account for the step down. 

That way we can simply add up the fractions of amps to measure the point where we get close to maxing out the wall outlet.

Goes for lamps, space heaters, etc, where the manufacturer knows how many volts the device runs on, knows the capacity of the power cord they attached to the device, and knows that its intended for a household wall outlet.  They know the amount of the step down.

Displaying the step down amperage amount would allow the consumer to simply add up the fractions of amperage to more easily determine how many things they could plug into the wall outlet, and would prevent a lot of house fires.  

Maybe I'm not thinking of it correctly.

- Douglas

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:21 AM

Doughless
 
Goes for lamps, space heaters, etc, where the manufacturer knows how many volts the device runs on, knows the capacity of the power cord they attached to the device, and knows that its intended for a household wall outlet.  They know the amount of the step down.

Just a thought here on circuit usage. I have zoned my basement into two 15 amp circuits, West where the layout is located and East for the remainder of the basement. Each circuit powers LED can lights on the ceiling and a few wall outlets in addition to the West circuit powering the layout itself.

I do not use either circuit for space heaters, dehumidifier, or power tools. I have central air and heat so no need for space heaters. The dehumidifier and power tools rely on a separate 20 amp circuit with a power feeding through a single receptacle attached to the bottom of the service panel.

The furnace, water heaters, ejector pump and sump pump are each on their own dedicated circuit.

I have never flipped a breaker with this arrangement.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:30 AM

Doughless

Since voltage is a step down, a reducer, from the constant amperage of the wall outlets, I would think the proper language would say that an Athearn BB motor draws, say, .075 amps as well as adjusting the amperage limit of the power pack to account for the step down. 

Douglas, your use of the term "amperage" got me to thinking about the difference between ampere and amperage. One distinction that I found says this:

Ampere vs Amperage - What's the difference? An ampere is a unit of electrical current. It is the standard base unit in the international system of units, abbreviated as amp. Amperage is the electric current's strength carried by a conductor or machine generated as measured in amperes.

For whatever that is worth.

Rich

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:14 AM

richhotrain

 

 
Doughless

Since voltage is a step down, a reducer, from the constant amperage of the wall outlets, I would think the proper language would say that an Athearn BB motor draws, say, .075 amps as well as adjusting the amperage limit of the power pack to account for the step down. 

 

 

Douglas, your use of the term "amperage" got me to thinking about the difference between ampere and amperage. One distinction that I found says this:

 

Ampere vs Amperage - What's the difference? An ampere is a unit of electrical current. It is the standard base unit in the international system of units, abbreviated as amp. Amperage is the electric current's strength carried by a conductor or machine generated as measured in amperes.

For whatever that is worth.

Rich

 

But neither I, nor the average person, wants to know that just to figure out how many lamps I can plug into one outlet. 

I would think the best way to prevent house fires is to have the post-reduced Amp/ampere/amperage draw clearly labeled on the cord, which the producer would know the step down variable by the fact they installed the cord to the device, and its designed to plug into an American wall outlet.

Does that help?

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:15 AM

Doughless

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
Doughless

So that means my 15 amp wall outlet can handle devices that can draw 150 amps at the same time.  Cool.

As I'm sure you detected, my question was asked tongue partially in cheek since I knew that a typical wall outlet, which I would call 15 amps, would run more than 7 locomotives.  In fact, it would run an entire large layout.

My frustration stems from the conversations that occur about electricity.

One amp equals one amp, except for those times when it doesn't.

 

 

 

 

Well I'm not sure I follow your thinking or your frustration, maybe because I am an engineering type person.

But, for whatever it is worth, the term AMPERE does not exist in a vacuum, it has little context without knowing the working voltage.

Sheldon

 

 

 

I understand the variable nature of voltage embedded in the formula. 

I assume that 99% of our layouts get power from household wiring, and that the voltage supplied through the cord to our power packs and DCC systems to the rails is also constant....with an outlier or two of a couple of volts. 

In my mind, those variables in the formula are actually constants.

Since voltage is a step down, a reducer, from the constant amperage of the wall outlets, I would think the proper language would say that an Athearn BB motor draws, say, .075 amps as well as adjusting the amperage limit of the power pack to account for the step down. 

That way we can simply add up the fractions of amps to measure the point where we get close to maxing out the wall outlet.

Goes for lamps, space heaters, etc, where the manufacturer knows how many volts the device runs on, knows the capacity of the power cord they attached to the device, and knows that its intended for a household wall outlet.  They know the amount of the step down.

Displaying the step down amperage amount would allow the consumer to simply add up the fractions of amperage to more easily determine how many things they could plug into the wall outlet, and would prevent a lot of house fires.  

Maybe I'm not thinking of it correctly.

 

If you want to think of it without regard for voltage, than you should think about it in VA, volt-amps, OR Watts, which are almost the same thing and can be considered same for this discussion.

The wall outlet provides 1800 watts, the Athearn loco requires 24 watts.

Again, simple analogy:

Voltage is the amount of pressure, amperage is the volume, pressure x volume equals the total power.

And so this analogy also follows, slightly simplified, more volume requires a bigger "pipe" or path, so higher volume (amperage) requires bigger wire almost without regard for pressure.

So that is why a DCC buss for a large layout with multiple locos needs to be as big as the wiring in your house.

And again, keep in mind these are basic simple explainations of these ideas, without all the "extra" more complex factors. They are the beginning of understanding the magic of electrcity, which is magic - because you have never seen it, you have only seen what it will do.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:19 AM

Doughless

 

 
richhotrain

 

 
Doughless

Since voltage is a step down, a reducer, from the constant amperage of the wall outlets, I would think the proper language would say that an Athearn BB motor draws, say, .075 amps as well as adjusting the amperage limit of the power pack to account for the step down. 

 

 

Douglas, your use of the term "amperage" got me to thinking about the difference between ampere and amperage. One distinction that I found says this:

 

Ampere vs Amperage - What's the difference? An ampere is a unit of electrical current. It is the standard base unit in the international system of units, abbreviated as amp. Amperage is the electric current's strength carried by a conductor or machine generated as measured in amperes.

For whatever that is worth.

Rich

 

 

 

But neither I, nor the average person, wants to know that just to figure out how many lamps I can plug into one outlet. 

I would think the best way to prevent house fires is to have the post-reduced Amp/ampere/amperage draw clearly labeled on the cord, which the producer would know the step down variable by the fact they installed the cord to the device, and its designed to plug into an American wall outlet.

Does that help?

 

Larger cord connected devices usually have the wattage - the 15 amp circuit proives 1800 watts, the 20 amp circuit provides 2400 watts.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:22 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The wall outlet provides 1800 watts, the Athearn loco requires 24 watts.

Thank you.  That's what I'm looking for.

So the average homeowner should think of outlets in terms of watts, not amps, therby clearly knowing how many watts they can plug into a wall outlet.

- Douglas

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:31 AM

Does this help?

Big Smile

-Kevin

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 11, 2021 10:34 AM

SeeYou190

Does this help?

Big Smile

-Kevin

 

Not really.  Where is the light bulb in that illustration?  That's the thingy I buy at the store, and it tells me about watts.  I don't see watts in the pic.

Light bulbs, space heaters, refrigerators the things consumers buy, tend to speak in terms of watt usage.  My electric bill is based on my watt usage.

Just wondering if household infrastucture components, or train items, could also speak in terms of watts.  Watt capacity of an outlet, or a circuit, or a panel.

 

 

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, April 11, 2021 11:06 AM

Nearly every old fashioned DC power pack ever made has a wattage rating printed on it.

And I suspect DCC boosters and such do as well.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 11, 2021 11:36 AM

Doughless
  
SeeYou190

Does this help?

Big Smile

-Kevin 

Not really.  Where is the light bulb in that illustration?  That's the thingy I buy at the store, and it tells me about watts.  I don't see watts in the pic.

Light bulbs, space heaters, refrigerators the things consumers buy, tend to speak in terms of watt usage.  My electric bill is based on my watt usage.

Just wondering if household infrastucture components, or train items, could also speak in terms of watts.  Watt capacity of an outlet, or a circuit, or a panel. 

Let's say you are trying to measure household current. Typically, household voltage is 120V, so using a 15 amp circuit, 1800 watts of power are delivered to the receptacle (wall outlet). Under Ohms Law, V*A=P. In that example, the number of ohms (resistance) is 8 ohms. Under Ohms Law, R=V/I (Ohms=Volts/Amps). Using the same formula, a 20 amp circuit would deliver 2400 watts of power.

Ohms law remains consistent for lower values, so a 12 volt, 5 amp system would deliver 60 watts of power, 2.4 ohms resistance.

Rich

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 11, 2021 12:12 PM

richhotrain

 

 
Doughless
  
SeeYou190

Does this help?

Big Smile

-Kevin 

Not really.  Where is the light bulb in that illustration?  That's the thingy I buy at the store, and it tells me about watts.  I don't see watts in the pic.

Light bulbs, space heaters, refrigerators the things consumers buy, tend to speak in terms of watt usage.  My electric bill is based on my watt usage.

Just wondering if household infrastucture components, or train items, could also speak in terms of watts.  Watt capacity of an outlet, or a circuit, or a panel. 

 

 

Let's say you are trying to measure household current. Typically, household voltage is 120V, so using a 15 amp circuit, 1800 watts of power are delivered to the receptacle (wall outlet). Under Ohms Law, V*A=P. In that example, the number of ohms (resistance) is 8 ohms. Under Ohms Law, R=V/I (Ohms=Volts/Amps). Using the same formula, a 20 amp circuit would deliver 2400 watts of power.

 

Ohms law remains consistent for lower values, so a 12 volt, 5 amp system would deliver 60 watts of power, 2.4 ohms resistance.

Rich

 

The only reason I would want to measure household current is if I had to jumble around different components that displayed electicity with different denominators.  Plug each device, lamp, outlet, wire, etc into the formula then solve for x, then compare to make sure I wasn't going to overload a circuit.

We will be building a new house in about 4 years.  I'm hoping the conversation with the builder could go something like this.

" Your house comes standard with a (say) 25,000 watt capacity panel and 1800 watt and 2000 watt outlets where code demands.  We can upgrade your capacity to 35,000 watts, but that might take more electrical outlets or more 2000 watt outlets depending upon your choices and locations, and we will have to upgrade the wiring from 14g to 12g to safely provide the extra capacity.  That total capacity upgrade is $3,500."

Then let the professionals figure out how to build it by using the industry formula.

Then when I live in the house, I could go to each room and count the wattage use in each outlet to see if anything was about to overload an outet or pop the breaker.  

Maybe the way electical components interface, that type of simple convo isn't possible.  I dont know.

- Douglas

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, April 11, 2021 2:42 PM

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 11, 2021 3:24 PM

Doughless

We will be building a new house in about 4 years.  I'm hoping the conversation with the builder could go something like this.

" Your house comes standard with a (say) 25,000 watt capacity panel and 1800 watt and 2000 watt outlets where code demands.  We can upgrade your capacity to 35,000 watts, but that might take more electrical outlets or more 2000 watt outlets depending upon your choices and locations, and we will have to upgrade the wiring from 14g to 12g to safely provide the extra capacity.  That total capacity upgrade is $3,500."

Then let the professionals figure out how to build it by using the industry formula.

Then when I live in the house, I could go to each room and count the wattage use in each outlet to see if anything was about to overload an outet or pop the breaker.  

Well, one thing is for sure. The electrician will be talking in terms of amps, not watts.

Before 1965, service panels were typically 60 amp fuse protected circuits. Then, in 1965, 100 amp circuit breaker protected service panels became the norm. Nowadays, a 200 amp service panel is desirable to deal with all of the increased electrical needs, especially in kitchens and bathrooms and garage workshops.

A typical 200 amp service panel is going to be divided into 15 and 20 amp circuits with a few 30 amp circuits for central air conditioning units and a few other heavy duty appliances. The 15 amp circuits will be wired with 14 gauge copper wire, while the 20 amp circuits will be wired with 12 gauge copper wire. Those 30 amp circuits will be wired with 10 gauge copper wire.

In my experience, it would be unusual for a household service panel to be completely powered with 20 amp circuits instead of a mix of 15 amp and 20 amp circuits.

Rich

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, April 11, 2021 4:16 PM

Yes, that's whay I referred to 1800 watt or "2000" watt outlets based upon location.  A guy putting a woodworking shop in his garage is going to use more power, and so he would need the larger capacity outlets.  Sheldon has said, when he's updating houses because of updated modern kitchens, he's having to add another panel.  He has to increase the capacity of the system to handle more/powerful devices, at least the capacity in one location.  

I'm just talking about what value in the algebra you settle on to explain it.  

I think I've made my point, so I'll get off may rant Stick out tongue

- Douglas

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 11, 2021 4:19 PM

Doughless

I think I've made my point, so I'll get off may rant Stick out tongue

Rant on if you will, Douglas.

Your rants are always enjoyable reading. Laugh

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 11, 2021 4:22 PM

Doughless

I'm just talking about what value in the algebra you settle on to explain it.  

That would be Ohm's Law.

Rich

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:54 PM

Douglas,

First. let's assume a house has a 200A service, pretty standard for the last 4 decades actually.

The 200A main panel may only have between 30 and 42 breaker "spaces".

200A, which is actually at 240 volts, is 48,000 watts, usually more than enough power for homes up to about 6,000 sq ft unless they have electric based heat.

But what happens is you may run out of breaker spaces to properly "distribute" that 48,000 watts.

So, because before 2008 the code restricted how many breakers could be in one panel, and even now with that modified, the industry still limits most panels to about 56 breaker spaces, we use sub panels.

A sub panel is fed from a breaker in the main panel, typically between 70A and 150A, a two pole breaker feeds the sub panel which can typically have an additional 12 to 30 breaker spaces.

My previous home, the big Victorian house you may have seen photos of on here, had a 200A, 40 circuit (breaker spaces) Main Panel, fed from that panel was:

70A, 16 circuit panel in the 2,200 sq ft garage, fed from from that sub panel was a 50A 12 circuit sub panel on the second floor of the garage which was my train room.

Also in the house was another 50A, 12 circuit sub panel.

The 4,000 sq ft house, in ground swimming pool, 2,200 sq ft detached garage, three A/C systems totaling 10 tons of cooling, industrial air compressor an other shop tools, two sets of washers and electric dryers, onsite domestic water well pump and treatment system, hot tub, fish pond, 12 ceiling fans, and three refrigerators ran safely and easily on that 200A service.

The heat was oil fired, 5 zone, hot water baseboard, and the domestic hot water was provided by the oil fired boiler thru an indirect coil tank. All of which required two circulator pumps, oil burner and controls.

The garage train room heat was provided by a propane furnace.

We cooked on Propane, so no electric range or oven.

All the branch wiring in the house was 20A circuits, allowing each circuit to cover more sq footage of lighting and outlets, but I still did not take that to the max.

And you may not believe this part, but in the spring and fall, our electric bill was often only $150. In the summer, a lot more.........

You want the best electric in a new home you are building? Send me the blueprints, and for a small fee I will design the electrical system down to the last outlet rather than letting the electrical contractor just do it to code minimums and typical conventions. 

I do this all the time, I have been an electrical design draftsman, among other skills, since 1976.

Sheldon 

  

    

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Posted by Pruitt on Sunday, April 11, 2021 10:42 PM

That Victorian sounds like quite a place, Sheldon. As a big fan of old homes, your description of the updated electrical system is fascinating.

Want to hear about my previous 10,000 square foot home that had 600 Amp service (three 200A panels)? Very painful electric bills!

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, April 11, 2021 11:10 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The 4,000 sq ft house, in ground swimming pool, 2,200 sq ft detached garage, three A/C systems totaling 10 tons of cooling, industrial air compressor an other shop tools, two sets of washers and electric dryers, onsite domestic water well pump and treatment system, hot tub, fish pond, 12 ceiling fans, and three refrigerators ran safely and easily on that 200A service.

OK, this is very interesting to me.

I have a 1,300 square foot home with a 40 space 200 amp main panel. It sounds to me like that 200 amps should be more than enough for what my house would ever need.

The plan for the train room is to run 60 amps from a breaker on the main panel to the sub panel in the train room, then have four circuits (2 20 and 2 15) on the sub panel. We are removing the unused breaker for the well pump and using that space for the train room supply.

All this had me concerned about overloading the whole thing, but my electrician said I have nothing to worry about, and from what you said, it sounds like he must be correct.

-Kevin

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 12, 2021 5:23 AM

Pruitt

That Victorian sounds like quite a place, Sheldon. As a big fan of old homes, your description of the updated electrical system is fascinating.

Want to hear about my previous 10,000 square foot home that had 600 Amp service (three 200A panels)? Very painful electric bills!

 

Yes, I can imagine. 10,000 sq ft is a LOT of house. You can take the photo tour of the Queen Anne here.

https://app.photobucket.com/u/carrollhome/a/bfdbd701-abf4-4d5f-bb20-786bbc5599c9

We purchaced the house in 1995 and spent three years on the restoration and renovations. Much of the interior millwork and plaster is original.

It was built in 1901, in a little village served by the Ma & Pa RR which actually ran right behind the house until 1955 or so.

Most of the photos above are the real estate photos from the its recent sale last year. 

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 12, 2021 5:30 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The 4,000 sq ft house, in ground swimming pool, 2,200 sq ft detached garage, three A/C systems totaling 10 tons of cooling, industrial air compressor an other shop tools, two sets of washers and electric dryers, onsite domestic water well pump and treatment system, hot tub, fish pond, 12 ceiling fans, and three refrigerators ran safely and easily on that 200A service.

 

OK, this is very interesting to me.

I have a 1,300 square foot home with a 40 space 200 amp main panel. It sounds to me like that 200 amps should be more than enough for what my house would ever need.

The plan for the train room is to run 60 amps from a breaker on the main panel to the sub panel in the train room, then have four circuits (2 20 and 2 15) on the sub panel. We are removing the unused breaker for the well pump and using that space for the train room supply.

All this had me concerned about overloading the whole thing, but my electrician said I have nothing to worry about, and from what you said, it sounds like he must be correct.

-Kevin

 

Yes Kevin, WAY more than enough.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 12, 2021 6:05 AM

SeeYou190

I have a 1,300 square foot home with a 40 space 200 amp main panel. It sounds to me like that 200 amps should be more than enough for what my house would ever need.

My daughter and her husband built a new home a few years back. During the design process, I suggested to my daughter that she ask the electrical subcontractor whether a 400 amp service panel would be a good idea, considering the fact that the home would be a 4,500 sq ft, 3-story (small, tight lot) with a finished basement and 3-zoned HVAC units. The subcontractor assured her that a 200 amp service panel would be more than enough to meet their current and future needs.

Rich

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Posted by Pruitt on Monday, April 12, 2021 6:08 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Beautiful house, Sheldon! It must have been a bit painful to let it go.

I owned a Georgian Colonial (built in 1928) in New Jersey for almost 20 years. Lived in it for about 12 years. My late wife and I spent about eight years rehabbing most of the house, inside and out. I sold it when I moved to Wyoming in late 2019. I still miss it sometimes.

Just in case you're curious, a slide show of the work in progress is here:

28 S Cove Road - YouTube and here:

28 S Cove Road Pt 2 - YouTube

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 12, 2021 8:01 AM

Mark, very, very nice. 

All my before and during photos are 35mm prints that have never been digitized. Four photo albums worth.

Let's just say my before and during was similar to yours.

We lived in that house for 23 years, finished raising 5 kids, and then helped raise some of the grand children. 

We received several awards and the house was featured on the HGTV program Restore America in 2003.

It was the adventure of a lifetime, now on to new adventures, like more time for model trains.

The new, down sized, one floor retirement spot actually has a larger space for trains than the big Queen Anne.

My train room at the Queen Anne was 1,000 sq ft above the garage. At the new (built in 1964) house, I have a 1,500 sq ft basement with very little in the way.

Take care,

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, April 12, 2021 9:07 AM

richhotrain

 

 
SeeYou190

I have a 1,300 square foot home with a 40 space 200 amp main panel. It sounds to me like that 200 amps should be more than enough for what my house would ever need.

 

 

My daughter and her husband built a new home a few years back. During the design process, I suggested to my daughter that she ask the electrical subcontractor whether a 400 amp service panel would be a good idea, considering the fact that the home would be a 4,500 sq ft, 3-story (small, tight lot) with a finished basement and 3-zoned HVAC units. The subcontractor assured her that a 200 amp service panel would be more than enough to meet their current and future needs.

 

Rich

 

Why is that?  How many watts was she planning on using in her house.....?

If the discussion about panels was in terms of watts, she may have been able to figure that out for herself without carry around an algebraic equation in her head.Big Smile

- Douglas

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 12, 2021 9:40 AM

Doughless

Why is that?  How many watts was she planning on using in her house.....?

If the discussion about panels was in terms of watts, she may have been able to figure that out for herself without carry around an algebraic equation in her head. 

You should stop focusing on watts for household electrical requirements. 

Think amps. Again, a 15 amp circuit delivers 1800 watts, while a 20 amp circuit delivers 2400 watts.

One other thing that may not have been mentioned is that recommended usage of a circuit is limited to 80% of capacity. So, on a 15 amp circuit, 1800 watts, you want to limit usage to 1440 watts. On a 20 amp circuit, 2400 watts, you want to limit usage to 1920 watts. Another way to look at that is to realize that those circuits are designed to provide 125% of available power to prevent overloads, if you limit usage to 80% of capacity (100%/80%).

Also, as has been pointed out, a 200 amp panel is not limited, say, to ten 20 amp circuits. If there is space on the panel for, say, 40 breakers, you could install forty  20 amp breakers (800 amps of electrical power) because not that much power would be in use at one time.

The reason that I told my daughter to inquire about a 400 amp panel was mostly out of curiosity because it would add so much more flexibility in distributing power throughout the 3-story house, finished basement, and 3-car garage.

Rich

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  • From: Maryland
  • 12,853 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 12, 2021 9:56 AM

And, as homes get larger and more complex, sub panels strategically located are a good idea rather than bringing all circuits back to a central location.

Additionally, I wired the Queen Anne with three wire twin circuits where two circuits on opposite poles of the panel share one neutral wire. This will almost cut in half the number cables going into the panel.

Again, 200 amps is plenty for most houses, it is all about proper distribution.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Heart of Georgia
  • 5,397 posts
Posted by Doughless on Monday, April 12, 2021 10:57 AM

richhotrain

 

 
Doughless

Why is that?  How many watts was she planning on using in her house.....?

If the discussion about panels was in terms of watts, she may have been able to figure that out for herself without carry around an algebraic equation in her head. 

 

 

You should stop focusing on watts for household electrical requirements. 

 

Think amps. Again, a 15 amp circuit delivers 1800 watts, while a 20 amp circuit delivers 2400 watts.

One other thing that may not have been mentioned is that recommended usage of a circuit is limited to 80% of capacity. So, on a 15 amp circuit, 1800 watts, you want to limit usage to 1440 watts. On a 20 amp circuit, 2400 watts, you want to limit usage to 1920 watts. Another way to look at that is to realize that those circuits are designed to provide 125% of available power to prevent overloads, if you limit usage to 80% of capacity (100%/80%).

Also, as has been pointed out, a 200 amp panel is not limited, say, to ten 20 amp circuits. If there is space on the panel for, say, 40 breakers, you could install forty  20 amp breakers (800 amps of electrical power) because not that much power would be in use at one time.

The reason that I told my daughter to inquire about a 400 amp panel was mostly out of curiosity because it would add so much more flexibility in distributing power throughout the 3-story house, finished basement, and 3-car garage.

Rich

 

I actually don't think of it in terms of watts.  I understand the equation ( I don't have much occaision to use it). 

The average person does not understand the difference between the watts they use, or try to use, and the amps they draw from the infrastructure.  That's why they have house fires or at least breaker pops.

And yes, just because each outlet in a room is a 15 amp outlet, that doesn't mean three outlets in a room on the same circuit allows you to load 45 amps onto the circuit.

And that's basically what OP is asking, but in terms of trains.  He's asking how many big light bulbs, fans, mini fridges, window airconditioners, TV's, treadmills, and hair dryers can I plug into the local wall outlets.  And how do I know when I need to break it up.

Most consumer goods speak in terms of watts, and the infrastructure speaks in terms of amps, and therein lies the issue.

- Douglas

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,024 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 12, 2021 11:35 AM

Doughless

And yes, just because each outlet in a room is a 15 amp outlet, that doesn't mean three outlets in a room on the same circuit allows you to load 45 amps onto the circuit.

Douglas, you are beginning to worry me.  Laugh

Nobody said or suggested that you can load up three outlets in a room with 45 amps of usage.

Let's say that in that room with 3 outlets, all 3 outlets are wired to a 15 amp breaker in the service panel, and those are the only 3 outlets on that circuit. You would be limited to 1800 watts (1440 watts at 80%) plugged into those 3 outlets.

Moreover, since extension cords and multi-plugs are always discouraged, it would be best to plug in two lamps, or whatever, to each duplex outlet for a total of 6 lamps, or whatever, that are being plugged in.

So, for example, if each lamp holds a 100 watt bulb, you would only be using 600 watts on that individual circuit. If each bulb holds a 200 watt bulb, you would be using as much as 1200 watts, nearing the safe capacity (1440 watts) of that circuit.

Rich

Alton Junction

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