Snjroy you said:
The idea of a 4X8 is to get things running fast and learn things.
A 4X8 is easy - there are tons of plans out there that one can modify on the fly.
Good advice after sitting and trying to see about inclines and bridges and ..... on my 1st HO 4x8!
What do you recommend? Pick a layout and get some models and just build it and get it up and running?
Thanks
richhotrainLol Rich! Not even a special dispensation for noobs as long as they swear after their training period with the 4x8 they swear fealty to a larger format when trained? Well...in that case, I guess.
Uncle!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 richhotrain As I said before earlier in this thread. If I was elected or appointed as the HO Scale Czar, I would ban 4' x 8' layouts altogether. Rich Lol Rich! Not even a special dispensation for noobs as long as they swear after their training period with the 4x8 they swear fealty to a larger format when trained?
richhotrain As I said before earlier in this thread. If I was elected or appointed as the HO Scale Czar, I would ban 4' x 8' layouts altogether. Rich
As I said before earlier in this thread.
If I was elected or appointed as the HO Scale Czar, I would ban 4' x 8' layouts altogether.
Rich
Lol Rich! Not even a special dispensation for noobs as long as they swear after their training period with the 4x8 they swear fealty to a larger format when trained?
Alton Junction
SeeYou190 The 4 by 8 is the perfect introduction. Easy to build, can be fun to run, does not require a lot of equipment, and you can learn the hobby.
The 4 by 8 is the perfect introduction. Easy to build, can be fun to run, does not require a lot of equipment, and you can learn the hobby.
Fer sher. Four axle loco's and max 60' long rolling stock will work the best in the 4x8 format.
Even the famous John Allen started with a small format layout and it grew into a much larger master piece. Hey, you never know!
Plus... it can be completed... less likely to stall out.
yeah, I hear you. I haven't stalled out due to lack of interest but more like stalled due to honey do projects. Honey, lets tear down the big deck to the frame and rebuild it with mostly new wood! Honey, lets remodel the kitchen again and DIY build a new kitchen island where there wan't one before.
It's taken 15 months to get to this point so far:
I like the idea of 4 by 8 "chainsaw" layouts to get going. -Kevin
-Kevin
Dang, what if I don't own a chain saw? Not to worry, I broke my last layout down with just a drive driver to back-out all the screws and it just came apart!
snjroyThe idea of a 4X8 is to get things running fast and learn things. A round-the-rooom shelf layout is a big investment in time, and requires quite a bit of effort to take down if you end up not liking the hobby.
I like the idea of 4 by 8 "chainsaw" layouts to get going.
Living the dream.
8X4 may seem to be a good starting point. Many of us have begun this way. As an adult may soon get bored with the limitations of the 8X4. Have look at the Beer Line Project. You can start with 2 8x2s joined together . This could be an 8X4, a 16x2 or 10X8 L shape and expand by adding further modules as your skills and confidence develops. In years to come, you may wish to either dispose or upgrade you earlier efforts. Also 8x2 are a lot easier to move about.
Lastspikemike For clarity, I am a beginner, in case that's not obvious. We did build a "4x8" table that quickly became 9x5 before we managed to maneuver it down the basement stairs! That's a good thing because we had to cut it back into the original pieces to extract it which we managed to do with mainly the track intact. Before we had laid any track this 9x5 somehow grew to 5x10 while under construction downstairs. Reminds me of the building a canoe in your basement joke. The important bit is we then also built onto that basic layout: a 2x5 right angle. Then a 2x9 yard table (which made it out of the basement in the house move without ANY cutting or track lifting except at the end joints). Then we added a 4x7 end table for return loops (adding two curve support edge extensions to get broader radius) built in two pieces that also came out in one piece. My point is, doing this again, I wouldn't bother with the 9x5 table at all, just build tables to support the planned layout. Which is of course how benchwork got invented....
For clarity, I am a beginner, in case that's not obvious. We did build a "4x8" table that quickly became 9x5 before we managed to maneuver it down the basement stairs!
That's a good thing because we had to cut it back into the original pieces to extract it which we managed to do with mainly the track intact. Before we had laid any track this 9x5 somehow grew to 5x10 while under construction downstairs. Reminds me of the building a canoe in your basement joke.
The important bit is we then also built onto that basic layout: a 2x5 right angle. Then a 2x9 yard table (which made it out of the basement in the house move without ANY cutting or track lifting except at the end joints).
Then we added a 4x7 end table for return loops (adding two curve support edge extensions to get broader radius) built in two pieces that also came out in one piece.
My point is, doing this again, I wouldn't bother with the 9x5 table at all, just build tables to support the planned layout.
Which is of course how benchwork got invented....
Simon
I would use Atlas code 83 sectional track. Skip the roadbed.
You can certainly use longer pieces of flex track, but you will have to trim the ends if not cut it to the right lengths. Its easy, but you need the correct tool.
- Douglas
riogrande5761The thing is an around the room layout always gets you longer track. Plus it puts you in the center of all of the action. Plus it solves the reach issue. Plus if you don't like scenery (and I don't) and you prefer running trains and watching them run then around the room ls a no brainer compared to the old table top idea. Some of us don't really have time to learn by doing right from the beginning. Certainly I can afford to run some pretty nice trains and I'd like to watch them run a fair distance before they repeat. 9x 5 doesn't get me there. But the same space will if I stand in the middle of the room and run the trains around me.
Some of us don't really have time to learn by doing right from the beginning. Certainly I can afford to run some pretty nice trains and I'd like to watch them run a fair distance before they repeat. 9x 5 doesn't get me there. But the same space will if I stand in the middle of the room and run the trains around me.
Lastspikemike Well, maybe. But a 5x9 sheet has lots of unusable space when you get right down to it. That space is right in the middle of the layout space, right where the best viewing point is. Imagine then cutting a big hole in the centre of the 5x9 sheet....
Well, maybe. But a 5x9 sheet has lots of unusable space when you get right down to it. That space is right in the middle of the layout space, right where the best viewing point is. Imagine then cutting a big hole in the centre of the 5x9 sheet....
But the middle is a great place to put buildings and a few sidings, so it is usable space.
One idea is that you don't build a 9x5 table with legs. You build 2 9x2 tables with legs and put them against two opposite walls, then you connect each end of the two long tables with shelves that are also 2' wide by however long you have room for....
Now it's growing hair. See that is the thing about people already in the hobby, they see all kinds idea's to push beyond beginner level, somethings they would learn and do on a 2nd layout perhaps.
The thing is an around the room layout always gets you longer track. Plus it puts you in the center of all of the action. Plus it solves the reach issue. Plus if you don't like scenery (and I don't) and you prefer running trains and watching them run then around the room ls a no brainer compared to the old table top idea. Some of us don't really have time to learn by doing right from the beginning. Certainly I can afford to run some pretty nice trains and I'd like to watch them run a fair distance before they repeat. 9x 5 doesn't get me there. But the same space will if I stand in the middle of the room and run the trains around me.
I agree with the advantages of around the walls but that assumes it is possible in the space available. Suppose you have a large space but it is fully developed how do you avoid the 'table' ? I was faced with table or no layout.
As far as track goes, I first built my small layout with Atlas Truetrack but after a year I tore it all up and replaced it with Kato Unitrack and have never regreted that decision. I did use some Atlas track in the yard as Unitrack only comes with roadbed.
If you can seeif you can go to a 5x9 to get to a 24" radius.
CN Charlie
NorthBritIt is when larger boards are mentioned then space around it is required (for track cleaning and any derailments etc. If a large board is used it is then (imo) better to build around the room. Laying boards and track in stages, having a simple track plan, getting an engine running. That's my .
I agree in terms of space usage and access, but not for a beginner. I wasn't a beginner when I built my around the walls layout. If the OP has space for a 4x8 or 5x9, as long as has access the two long sides, he should be able to reach everything.
When he has some experience on the single board layout, then the around the walls would be the next logical evolutionary step.
Hello All,
Check out the National Model Railroad Association "Getting Started In Model Railroading" Beginner's Guide.
Keep participating in these forums with your questions and please reply, as best you can, when asked for more information and/or solutions you have found.
I agree on using sectional or flex track; with proper track cutters, right off the bat rather than using the type with a plastic roadbed attached.
Once you decide on a "final" track plan these types of track can be incorporated into your pike.
I would suggest researching the use of "pink" or "blue" insulating foam as a base, over a plywood base or bench work.
Once you have decided on a base for your pike you can set up a basic oval with some turnouts for sidings, and start running trains.
Probably the most expensive part of your initial investment will be the control system. I recommend a DCC (Digital Command Control) system over the antiquated DC (Direct Current) system.
Yes, many on these forums are satisfied with DC. Many more enjoy the benefits of DCC.
Do your research as to which expandable DCC manufacturer you want to use. I recommend NCE brand.
When I converted from DC to DCC I went with the Bachmann Dynamis system. This is a dead-end system with limited expansion possibilities.
I have maxed out the capacity of this system but I am limited by "She Who Must Be Obeyed" to a 4'x8' space so the limitations of the Dynamis system doesn't really affect me.
Keep the questions coming and...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
riogrande5761 However, for a novice, it might be too much and the 4x8, or better yet, a 5x9, would be a good starting point. Then after they get tired of trains chasing their tale, if space is availalbe, an around the room layout may be a next step. Anyway, there are many ways to skin a cat as they say - no offense to cat owners! Simon I'm guessing most cat owners know that saying refers to wild cats and not domestic.
However, for a novice, it might be too much and the 4x8, or better yet, a 5x9, would be a good starting point. Then after they get tired of trains chasing their tale, if space is availalbe, an around the room layout may be a next step.
Anyway, there are many ways to skin a cat as they say - no offense to cat owners! Simon
I'm guessing most cat owners know that saying refers to wild cats and not domestic.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with a layout board. My first one and second were 6ft by 4ft. That was all the space I had.
It is when larger boards are mentioned then space around it is required (for track cleaning and any derailments etc.
If a large board is used it is then (imo) better to build around the room. Laying boards and track in stages, having a simple track plan, getting an engine running.
That's my .
I am sure the OP has his own thoughts and it will be interesting to see how he goes.
As for cats. We had one and when he was outside dog owners would take another route with their dogs.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
There's still something to be said for a first-timer to give the old 4x8 a try. The World's Greatest Hobby set is actually available from both Kato and Bachmann, although more expensive, the Kato Unitrack is definitely a better investment. The Bachmann one comes with a DVD covering how to build your first layout - not sure if they include that in the Kato set.
The Kato plan avoids some of the usual negatives of a 4x8, in that the track never runs parallel to the table sides. And there's definitely some interesting switching to do.
Fuirst layouts are often referred to as "chainsaw" layouts because once you hone some skills and decide you want more - bigger layout, more specific interestes you've developed, etc - the original layout is literally chainsawed to pieces. That doesn't mean tossing everything in the trash - there's plenty you can salvage first.
Yes there are magazine articles on people who's very first layout is some huge multi-room filling masterpiece and it all worked out. But I would say those sort of things are more rare than not. As a newcomer, you may not be fully aware of what sort of models are out there. Or may not have yet fully developed an idea of just what sort of railroad interests you - modern? 70s? 50s? 30's? Mainline running, basically railfanning your trains runnign through scenery you create? Switch cars areound in yards and setting them out at industries? But rather than be an armchair model railroader while you think over such questions, build somethign and have some fun - see what you like. Don't be afraid to change what you build, and then when the time comes, tear it all down for a fresh start based oin what you've learned. Long-time hobby participants sometimes lose sight of their early beginner days and how they got to the point of liking what they like and doing things the way they like.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NorthBrit That is why I prefer a railway around a room and not a solid board. More railway in the same place. I was 'shot down' previously on another thread for mentioning it. David
That is why I prefer a railway around a room and not a solid board. More railway in the same place. I was 'shot down' previously on another thread for mentioning it.
Nothing wrong with around the room / walls. I did this on my last layout to maximize what I could fit in the 10x18' room.
A 4X8 has the advantage of being easy. You can literally set it up in 2 hours. I believe in an iterative approach - start easy to get your feet wet, learn a few things, and see if you like this hobby. A 4X8 is a good first step of this process. Sectional track is also easy, and can be re-used for the "real empire" layout to come. Track code is debatable too. The problem I have with code 83 is that it is expensive and more difficult to obtain. Code 100, with a few switches, is not too expensive. Anyway, there are many ways to skin a cat as they say - no offense to cat owners!
NorthBrit riogrande5761 The OP also posted the same topic in another forum. I suggested thinking outside the "bun" to quote a Taco Bell commerical, and think about something a bit bigger than the 4x8, say a 4.5 x 8 or if room allows a 5x9 layout. That is why I prefer a railway around a room and not a solid board. More railway in the same place. I was 'shot down' previously on another thread for mentioning it. I lie in wait under cover.
riogrande5761 The OP also posted the same topic in another forum. I suggested thinking outside the "bun" to quote a Taco Bell commerical, and think about something a bit bigger than the 4x8, say a 4.5 x 8 or if room allows a 5x9 layout.
That is why I prefer a railway around a room and not a solid board. More railway in the same place. I was 'shot down' previously on another thread for mentioning it. I lie in wait under cover.
After owning American Flyer trains as a kid, and after a 45 year hiatus from the hobby, I bought an HO scale passenger train and some sectional track and built a small layout on a 4' x 8' table. It was a simple oval.
I grew bored on Day 2. So, I expanded the layout to 8' x 12'. That gave me reasonable operating space. Your suggestion of an around-the-room layout makes sense.
riogrande5761 The OP also posted the same topic in another forum. I suggested thinking outside the "bun" to quote a Taco Bell commerical, and think about something a bit bigger than the 4x8, say a 4.5 x 8 or if room allows a 5x9 layout. Yes, plywood doesn't come in 5x9 sheets, which is why the 4x8 is the old standard. But a little bigger allows more generous curves and longer train models are happier on broader curves.
BigDaddy I guess I am in the minority, I have never liked the look of track with roadbed.
I guess I am in the minority, I have never liked the look of track with roadbed.
I don't either, but it is a good option for novices and also handy if you need to set up a loop on the carpet. The base keeps the track up and carpet fibers away from the trains.
With a decent pair of rail nippers, I don't see why flex track is beyond the comprehension and skills of a beginner.
For a number of years in my teens and twenties, I had a phobia about cutting track and all that was entailed with laying flex etc. The break through for me was getting cutoff wheels for my Dremel and heat sinks from Radio Shack to draw off heat and avoid melthing ties as rail can get very hot while cutting. After that I built my first layout in a garage and used all flex track - no sectional track at all.
Atlas is easy to form curves, readily available and not expensive.
I don't know where your interests lie, but in the modern era, individual cars, passenger and freight tend to be long. You will not want to run trains right on the edge of the layout you will be looking at 22" radius curves. That can be too tight for some equipment.
Welcome in, I started looking into a model railroad a year ago. With lots of help from the forums I've recently completed 360' of track, installed decoders in a dozen assorted DC locomotives and am starting the scener. I went with Atlas Code 83 flex track and Atlas turn outs and have not regretted the decision. I went quick and dirty and nailed the track down rather than using caulk. Getting something up and running was the main goal for me. Nailing it down has made it easy for me to make adjustments as needed as I went along. Just enjoy.
Welcome. The truth is, we are all going to give you different opinions regarding track and how to start. The important part is to start. You may build something that you end up hating and starting over, however the experience will guide you greatly. You can start with roadbed track, individual pieces or flex track. You may start with a 4 x 8 because that is ingrained in model railroading collective memory. And whatever you start with is great - it is a start.
This is a wonderful hobby, no matter how you start.
4 x 8 allows for a 22" radius which is far better than the 18" radius especially for steam locomotives and larger diesels. It's worth it. Nothing worse than constant derailing of your locomotive.
The most important part is to create something and have fun.
I guess I am in the minority, I have never liked the look of track with roadbed. With a decent pair of rail nippers, I don't see why flex track is beyond the comprehension and skills of a beginner.
I don't know where you interests lie, but in the modern era, individual cars, passenger and freight tend to be long. You will not want to run trains right on the edge of the layout you will be looking at 22" radius curves. That can be too tight for some equipment.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Welcome to the forum! You can save a LOT of money by reading and researching as much as possible about the hobby BEFORE purchasing anything. Fortunately, you are in the best possible location for answers to all of your modeling questions as the members of this forum have, collectively, seen it all! Best of all, forum members have discovered many different ways to do the same thing and so you can pick and choose those techniques that sound best to you! Remember that there are NO dumb questions as we have all been in your shoes at one time or another.
A good place to start for a first layout would be to purchase a good quality "all included" train set. Such sets typically include at least one locomotive, a few freight cars, a caboose, a loop of sectional track, and a means to power the train (either a DC power pack or a Digital Command Control [DCC] system). Good quality train sets are available from Athearn, Bachmann, Kato, Walthers and others. Avoid the cheapest Bachmann train sets as these provide "toy" quality trains that seldom last long nor perform as desired. Most any of the DCC powered Bachmann sets provide their modeler quality trains. The sets from other manufactures above tend to provide only modeler quality trains. I would also recommend starting with DCC from the outset as you will eventually want to go that route anyway. The Bachmann E-Z Command DCC system is included in their DCC powered train sets and, though this system is a bit limited, it will be adequate for a 4' by 8' layout and should prove a good introduction to the advantages of DCC over "old school" DC power.
Train sets provide "sectional" track which is most likely the best choice for beginners. High quality sectional track is readily available from Altas, Bachmann, Kato, Peco and Walthers. Many sectional track items are interchangeable (especially those without built-in plastic roadbed). You will want to buy nickle-silver track (no brass or steel). Note that if you choose a track brand with built-in plastic roadbed, you may be limited to the available products (straights, curves, turnouts, etc.) of that line as the plastic roadbeds from different manufacturers tend to not connect together without modification. Look at the prices of ALL the various sectional track products before deciding which line you want to use. Also note that many track plan books provide lists of the the sectional track needed to build that track plan. Several manufacturers offer track expansion packs designed to improve on the basic oval provided in their train sets.
Yes, you can get started by plopping a sheet of plywood across a couple of sawhorses but you'll be much happier in the long run building proper benchwork at a comfortable working/operating height and mounted on casters for maximum access. I have yet to see anyone build better basic benchwork than David Pop at MR so look up articles/videos for the last few 4' by 8' (or thereabout) MR project layouts and use David's benchwork plans and construction techniques. You'll thank yourself again and again.
Please feel free to contact the forum whenever you have a question. Keep us up to date on your progress and good luck!
Hornblower
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Since this is your first layout, and you are learning the hobby, Kato HO scale unitrack would be good. They even offer a "WGH" (World's Greatest Hobby) track assortment that will build a 4 by 8 layout all in one box.
If you are wanting to learn a lot, and maybe become frustrated, you can put sectional track over cork. You will want to learn this eventually, but it is up to you if you want to do it on your first layout.
Ask lots of questions.
I’m older than dirt and still enjoying my HO layout. Greatest Hobby in the world!!!!I’ll be working on my trains until I’m pushing up grass, 70 years in HO scale plus 6 in Lionel 027 so far. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Welcome to the hobby and the forum! There are many plans for 4X8s, so lots of choices. Many may encourage you to do a shelf layout, but starting with 4X8 is fine. For track, my advice is to buy new, and go for code 100 for now. Peco, Walthers, Bachmann, all are fine.